Lecher bitch edition
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This week's Monday Meeting Notes:
theonyxpath.com/whoah-nelly-monday-meeting-notes/
>Question:
What's your favorite Discipline and what's the most creative way you used it?
First for deleting Entropy mages
Second for deleting Life mages
Third for deleting Matter mages
Obtenebration, the shadow manipulation is so good and thematic for the Lasombra. I've had a few good creative uses for it, like disarming and pick pocketing, or using it to make someone think they're being attacked from the rear, then attacking them from the front. Though I know there's a lot more creative uses of disciplines out there.
Slice of Life/Adventure Chronicle about a sweet Thyrsus girl in her rural home town near the sea. She lives with her folks and she is the eldest of 5 siblings. What can the story be about?
She, her mother and her sisters gets raped and dies.
I've not played, but I'm very fond of Domination. I had a neat Lancea Sanctum priest, who pretended to be a good old man via serious domination abuse.
More than that, in Imperial Mysteries there is actual example of Tetrarch being tasked with binding Idigam.
Just played out Awakening in custom Realm of Life/Death. Player had to restore normal circle of life and death by killing hideous not-zombies, blob monsters and in the end taking Watchtower from evil dragon on the top. Shit was neat.
Her only trained skill is potion making, and she genuinely is nice and tries to help the normal people in her town.
>Pic related
If you really want to have your vampires\werewolves in Mage chronicle, just give them automatic Magic resistance and allow them to boost it with their mana analogue. That'll force players to use more elaborate tactics, which is Mage all about.
People who read We Eat Blood say that most Camarilla elders are going to some sort of conference on the East Coast. Do you guys think it'll be some sort of Feast of Folly v.2? What does it mean for the new metaplot?
We won't know until whatever form 5e actually takes appears, if then. Despite the hints and the prelude teaser, we know about as much as did before: very little.
>What's your favorite Discipline and what's the most creative way you used it?
Faux path & temporis 2(internal recursion)
Was playing a masquerade game, my character went away because i had to leave the game for a while. The dm and me wanted the character to return by pretending to be tzimice (the only normal looking one from the clanbook) who then pretended to be a gangrel. Because the city was officially a camarilla city
Problem one of the players is a serial metaplayer, to the point that the player saw a fake pc sheet i had that said "tzimice" and the first time the pc interacted and my pc introduce himself as gangrel his pc flipped the coffee table and said "I KNOW YOU ARE A DIRTY TZIMICE, ADMIT IT!!!"
Then my pc used (without the player knowing via code with the dm) temporis 2 (internal recursion) to paralyzed the other pc and faux path to make it seem like i paralyzed and altered his memory and the faux path again to make him feel someone was using auspex to read his mind.
Result: metagaming player was scared shitless that my tzimice had domination, auspex very high and i could justify my "new character" knowing all the meta knowledge of what was the party doing so far.
There's rumours that they'll all get killed, allowing more freedom to younger vampires.
Very stupid if you ask me but whatever
So does anyone take the Hollow Ones seriously? I legitimately thought they were a joke-faction when I first read M:tAs, like the "Players" covenant. Then I read more and some of the writers seemed to genuinely think that post-modern goth-emo-punk pseudo-mystics would unlock the Tenth Sphere and lead us all into a new age of magic.
Pic very related, its how the Technocracy $yndicate views the Hollow Ones. I don't think I'd ever use the HOs in my games, except maybe as a joke.
>Hollow Ones are slacktivists of the Traditions.
>They're more concerned about easy shit like bitching about gender word choice
Dear god they're millennials
>reading m20
Yeah, the Hollow Ones really are the worst of the 90's-00's punk-goth-emo bullshit. As SJW as the writers can be, I'm glad at least some of them are self-aware enough to acknowledge it.
The metaphot takes them very seriously, and they, along with some of the Crafts if I remember right, are one of the major factors in the Traditions victory scenario.
No one else takes them seriously. They're just an attempt to be a sop to Masquerade players, but bad.
How would you stat Harry Dresden for Mage 2e, including Arcana spread and supernatural or mage-only merits, but not referencing any abilities from being Winter Knight.
Yeah, the Disparate Alliance. I kinda like the DA, but the Hollows need to disappear.
You know there is a Dresden tabletop rpg?
that's not M20, though
I'm trying to envision the Hollow Ones as a clique or legacy in Mage 2e, but would imagine even Libertines would roll their eyes or outright laugh. Most of the other Ascension Tradition could port over, despite the racism and stereotypes.
ridiculous amount of nephandi tentacle rape.
jeez it reads like it.
So magefap question (awakening edition)
Since when you cast magic in the Fallen World you're calling down platonic forms and imposing them on the world, surely lawnchairing is impossible?
You're going up against a dude. You go for the lawnchair. You decide to fuck with his pattern. Except what you're actually doing is attacking his pattern using Life and Matter. Would it be justified to treat this as any other damage spell with the bonus effect on resolution?
Like, his body doesn't really exist. Your body doesn't really exist. Not as far as magic is concerned. So for all magical shit that will kill a dude (an example last thread was using Matter to turn their sweat into reactive chemicals) surely that should be crunched as Matter 3 for bashing, Matter 4 for lethal etc as per usual?
Would at least cut down on some of the inherent autism/white room/analysis paralysis I've seen in past MtAw games
>You know there is a Dresden tabletop rpg?
Yes, so? I'm not interested in the Dresden rpg as I hate the FATE system.
A spell need not cause direct damage, and the Creative Thaumaturgy rules do not presume every spell is a direct attack.
A mage can turn someone into a lawchair (or most anything else) with the right Arcana. For a regular human, it would require Life 4 and Matter 4.
You also don't really seem to understand the nature of supernal in the setting or magic system. I suggest you reread Creative Thaumaturgy.
>Allowing Temporis
>Accomodating a meta gamer to this extent
user, your game is shit.
>>Accomodating a meta gamer to this extent
>user, your game is shit.
Man, messing with the metagamer´s head that way for six month was awesome and revealing we manipulate him for that long was one of the best vamp game we ever had.
>Harry Dresden
Harry's definitely an Obrimos of the Adamantine Arrow. I would give him Forces 4, with some Prime, Spirit, Space and Matter.
Hollow Ones, when executed correctly, are irony poisoned assholes who know that it's all bullshit, but take that they know that very, very seriously.
In theory, they should be the Tradition that's the master of the Purple Paradigm, hyper aware Grant Morrisons who end their spells by laughing at what a stupid concept casting spells are, and then go to a rave and get wasted to celebrate a successful spell.
What I'm saying is that an Awakening 2e conversion of the Hollow Ones are basically meme magicians that dress as goths.
>I'm trying to envision the Hollow Ones as a clique or legacy in Mage 2e, but would imagine even Libertines would roll their eyes or outright laugh.
Seriously? Have you seen the 1st write up for the Free council? Just replace "muh democracy" with "muh mascara" and both are the trash can of the other faction that nobody takes seriously because they themselves arent serious.
>Have you seen the 1st write up for the Free council?
You meant FC in 1st edition, or in the 2nd one? Actually, it doesn't mean - they are shit in both of them.
The 1st edition order book was the Children of gaia revised book of NWoD.
Kind of the opposite - I know it has the little sidebar about how much easier it is to fuck with someone than do damage.
The thing is that feels more like how ascension's fluff worked and not Awakening's. Why should fallen world science be so applicable to the supernal, especially when supernal magic makes no sense using science (like why is Life a type of magic, or Death etc)
The Free Council are a lot more interesting and relatable in light of their 2e changes. You should also read their history from Mage Noir (where DaveB was a contributor).
It's best for everyone if we pretend the Free Council sourcebook never existed. It's a real shame considering the greatness of all the other Order and related books.
>supernal magic makes no sense using science
That's not a helpful way of looking at magic.
Supernal magic operates on its own and is not constrained by Fallen science. However, such magic is fully capable of usurping scientific rules or using them to the advantage of the mage.
Did DaveB write the Free Council section of Mage Noir?
I'm not sure Mage Noir, but I believe we've begun to assume that Dave's written nearly everything for Mage.
It's really unfair to other great Mage authors.
What's the cliff-notes version?
I know the Free-Council most frequently butts heads with the Silver Ladder and the Ladder's shtick is to manipulate, alter, and lead sleeper society towards awakening.
I believe the Free Council shtick is humanity is inherently magical and something like interpretive dance is just as valid of a magical tradition as say voodoo or hermetic sorcery.
>I believe the Free Council shtick is humanity is inherently magical and something like interpretive dance is just as valid of a magical tradition as say voodoo or hermetic sorcery.
Its more that voodoo or hermetic sorcery is just as valid as atlantean wankery
If I just want to read up the fluff for the Technocracy, and not bother with the rest of Mage stuff, which books should I read?
You noticed that MtAw 2e become a lot, lot more less powerful, if you just forbid ignoring Withstand by Exceptional Success?
Guide to the technocracy and the convention books
And the Technocracy Assembled Volume 1&2?
>You noticed that MtAw 2e become a lot, lot more less powerful, if you just forbid ignoring Withstand by Exceptional Success?
No, not really.
A mage really doesn't begin to reliably obtain exceptional successes until he has high Gnosis and Arcana, and at that point, he's already terrifying.
Not that terrifying, because you then HAVE to spend some dice to chew through enemy Withstand. Indirect spells remain the main force, but you still have to cleverly and creatively use them, not just bash everything with Unmaking Praxis insta-kills with no protection.
Those are the compiled convention books from 1st if memory serves me right
Has anyone played a Lhiannan in a chronicle before? They're my favourite bloodline but never got the chance to play one. If you did, how did it go? What is everyone's general opinion on the bloodline anyway?
A master can easily instantly cast a 4 dot direct unravelling spell with a *minimum* of 5 levels of aggravated damage at sensory range with no applied Defense, all without use of a rote or praxis, and with more than an ample dice pool to liberally add Spell Factors even without use of Yantras.
Also, don't forget that with an Arcanum at 5, Mage Armor provided Masters with a very substantial Defense/Armor without casting a single spell.
Masters mages are more than capable of obliterating even powerful supernatural foes they way we swat away insects.
The ES rule sometimes feels like it exists only as a stark overkill reminder that one does not fuck with masters.
If you apply the scientific method to the world you get "Science".
If you apply the scientific method to the Supernal you get Arcane Beats.
I envy you. Was the final reveal a bang or a whimper?
Am I just not seeing it in the mega archive of WoD stuff or is the Vampire: The Dark Ages Rulebook from 1996 simply not there? I found the revised, 2nd edition and the 20th anniversary, but not the original.
Yeah, but that's still deal and receive damage, not "sorry, you are dead".
>Masters mages are more than capable of obliterating even powerful supernatural foes they way we swat away insects.
Not really. Rank 4+ spirits (all kinds of them) have really nasty stats, and powerful Numina to top it off.
How large is an average Consilium/Assembly or Order Caucus, and what percentage of those mages are masters.
It would seem that most Consilia or Caucuses can easily deal any supernatural (or mundane) threat short of other significant mage groups like Seers or WMD-level Abyssal or similar horrors.
A hungry methuselah, rampant idigam, mad spirit god or even a major military operation would appear to elicit little more than a collective mage yawm.
The potency of an Unmaking effect normally *starts* at 5, and the mage has a *minimum* of 10 dice pool before Yantras, such as rotes he created, to raise it even more.
Even without the ES rule, master-level spells almost certainly mean instant death.
When fighting a master, the only consideration is usually will the adversary's death be quick or slow and painful.
>How large is an average Consilium/Assembly or Order Caucus
I think it's a WW rule to never provide supernatural demographics.
However, pre-2e, Dave did once give his own Gnosis / Arcana breakdown for a "typical' Consilium. Unfortunately, I cannot find the post.
Sometimes it feels like a person couldn't go to the supermarket or ride the bus in the CofD without bumping into a number of veritable gods.
>rampant idigam, mad spirit god
I'll repeat: spirits have nasty dicepools, 20+ is easy, and they'll have Numina to shield themselves with. And that's only talking about Rank 4-5 spirits. You just can't affect Rank 6+ with normal spells (not Imperial ones), in any Arcanum which deals with spirits.
First of all, it starts at 4, not 5 (number of steps equal to the character’s rating in the spell’s highest Arcanum minus one). You will want to spend some Reach points on top, to avoid ritual casting times and need to touch your target.
Yes, you still have 10+ dice to spend in Potency, but there is the catch: so is your enemy. So while you get to boost your Potency, he gets to boost his Withstand (with Prime Wards and Sign, for example). There is sword and shield, and there is a chance of your enemy Master to have a stronger shield. Ignoring Withstand with Exceptional Success just says "Fuck you, I won", regardless of mastery.
>supernatural demographics.
If DaveB or anyone else has those posts, it would be greatly appreciated.
>First of all, it starts at 4, not 5 (number of steps equal to the character’s rating in the spell’s highest Arcanum minus one).
Kind of. All factors start with the value of 1. When you make 4 steps for the Primary factor you end up with 5.
Your primary spell factor starts are your Arcanum level. An unmaking attack spell begins at a potency of 5.
The discussion was also about mages versus non-mages. Mages do have some general limited means of boosting Withstand or possibly forcing a Clash of Wills. Most other supernatural don't have such defenses against supernal magic, and even those who do can't use such defenses because they'll only realize their being targeting after the fact.
As for spirits, the Shielding Practice of the Spirit Arcanum can virtually immunize a mage from spirit numina and influences, and low levels of Arcana like Spirit and Prime can offer mages the ability to use or mimic a spirit's bane, no matter the spirit's rank.
Simply, is fighting a Rank 6 spirit god easy? Hell no. Are mages the only splat capable of not embarrassing themselves in such an encounter at a typical PC level? Yes.
Excellent. Thank you.
Hopefully, Dave will publicly update his charts for 2e.
Can a Forces 2 Shielding spell actually make a mage immune to any physical damage?
>Most other supernatural don't have such defenses against supernal magic
Maybe, but vampires, for example, may add up their Blood Potency to Withstand other supernatual effects (which would include Supernal magic IMO). So Vampire with BP 5 would require -10 to the roll to affect him with direct spell.
>As for spirits, the Shielding Practice of the Spirit Arcanum can virtually immunize a mage from spirit numina and influences
It really wouldn't. You still have to roll Clash of Wills, and spirits still have godhuge attributes with Rank on top.
>and low levels of Arcana like Spirit and Prime can offer mages the ability to use or mimic a spirit's bane
Knowing the bane not equals to "can use the bane", and the higher the spirit rank, the harder it's bane to use.
In theory yes. Much harder in practice.
I model my "Force Field" spell after the "Alchemist's Touch" example spell.
Primary factor: Potency
Practice :Shielding
The spell protects the mage from all forms of bashing damage associated with that form of energy chosen at the time of casting (e.g. kinetic, electric, thermal, radiation, pressure)
+1 reach The mage may choose an additional school (This may be taken multiple times)
+1 reach The spell protects against lethal damage and reduces aggravated damage by Potency
+2 reach & 1 Mana The spell protects against aggravated damage.
You can jazz it up with conjunctional arcana if you feel like you'd need dots in death to protect you from an angry ghost trying to club your head in. Remember a shielding spell only lasts Potency # clash of wills against supernatural attacks.
Adding supernatural tolerance to Withstand is discouraged because it virtually renders supernatural immune to magic. It's going the completely opposite direction.
Ephemeral Enchantment (Prime•••)
Practice: Weaving
Primary Factor: Duration
Suggested Rote Skills: Crafts, Occult, Weaponry
The symbol-forms of the Aether are real enough to cut
through all layers of reality. This spell enchants the subject to
be as solid to Twilight entities as to physical matter. This spell
is equally effective against all forms of Twilight; the subject
may interact with ghosts, spirits, angels, and stranger things
with equal facility.
+2 Reach: If the enchanted object is a weapon, it may be
enchanted to act as the bane of a specified being in Twilight
for one Mana. Extra subjects may be added with the Scale spell
factor, but each costs one extra point of Mana
A Forces 2 "Force Shield" Rote would be very effective.
Four free Reach and Yantra Mundra bonus.
Reach:
+1 instant casting
+1 Advanced Duration (scene)
+1 Lethal protection
+1 Any extra type of energy.
Such a spell could render its user effectively immune to kinetic and heat damage. Even an Uratha in Garau will be little more than a nuisance.
Would such protection stack or replace armor provided by Forces and Matter Mage Armor?
Next combat, I'll be standing *behind* the Obrimos in my cabal.
>Adding supernatural tolerance to Withstand is discouraged because it virtually renders supernatural immune to magic. It's going the completely opposite direction.
So, options that make mages actually put some effort into spells are "discouraged"? Aren't that convenient?
>it may be enchanted to act as the bane of a specified being in Twilight for one Mana
Wait, and that if spirit don't have material bane, as in this example:
> The teenage rebel cannot ever willingly submit or surrender to authority.
?
If you spend the reach to move it to advanced duration the spell would now have a duration of a year due to primary factor.
However it would have a default potency of 1 so any supernatural attack like an Uratha's claws would pop the shield after the Clash of Wills win or fail. However you could walk through machine gun fire no problem.
The way I understand the rules is the highest effect takes precedence (so you can't use both time magic and forces to run at super sonic speed) but different things can stack (So you can enhance your physical attributes with life and a forces speed spell) .
So if you're shot with a magic sniper rifle. You'd first roll a clash of wills to see if it pierces your shielding spell. If it goes through then you'd have to figure out how much Mage armor reduces the damage. The you have to see how much your mundane armor reduces it if at all. Then if you have an attainment like 'Inviolate Form' you can roll to see if the damage goes through.
For 2e I think he would be:
>Forces 4 (going on 5)
>Prime 4
>Spirit 3
>Death 3
>Matter 3
>Space 2
>Mind 2
Maybe with Winter Knight as a Legacy.
I have a question and it's kinda hard to find it in the archive, but why does everyone hate the module Rite of Passage from Werewolf?
>So, options that make mages actually put some effort into spells are "discouraged"? Aren't that convenient?
Thats DaveB whole design approach, "if it sound OP then enforce it"
I think it was more "I don't give a fuck about crossovers" or "If you're dumb enough to run a Mage in a crossover game you fucking deal with it."
I could of sworn he's done some minor time magic in at least one of the novels.
He could have, but I don't think so. I mean there are a lot of them and it's been a while since I read them, but I'm pretty sure Time magic in the Dresden Files is iffy as fuck and largely illegal.
>Force Shield
The Forces spell is patterned on Matter 2's Alchemist's Touch (p.155), which unlike more esoteric Shielding spells such as Mental Shield, Ghost Shield and Ephemeral Shield, has a Primary Factor of Potency and does not provide a Clash of Wills.
With enough potency? Yes.
I believe the popular consensus is that Forces shielding makes you immune to Bashing from a specified energy source and decreases Lethal damage by Potency.
How do you get Death 3 and Mind 2, particularly since most mental and necromantic magic is punishable by death in the DF setting.
>So, options that make mages actually put some effort into spells are "discouraged"?
It's not "some effort," it results in virtual immunity to supernal magic.
The new magic system with Withstand, only requiring one success for effect, etc., is intentionally modeled without consideration for using Supernatural Tolerance as an additive defense. Just tacking it on because you don't like powerful mages upends the system.
At best, for a houserule, it may be reasonable to allow pc's to use the higher of the relevant trait or supernatural tolerance, whichever is higher, or at the extreme, allow +1 Withstand for every 2 levels of supernatural tolerance, rounded down.
Not him, but Harry has displayed the ability to use mental shielding effects (2 dots), and raise a dinosaur zombie (3 dots).
Neither of which break their laws of Magic.
I got Death 3 because he has done Death magic, like with the ghosts at Bianca's mansion, cold magic (helped by being the Winter Knight), and the bit of actual necromancy he did on a giant T-Rex fossil.
As for Mind 2, I imagine that would actually be provided by the Council now, since it's the minimum requirement for a Mental Shield, which he used against the Corspetaker. There was also that time he did a little ritual casting to put Murphy in a deep sleep, which I believe is a Disciple level spell in 2e.
Would an Obrimos be able to simultaneously use his Forces Mage Armor and a Forces Shielding spell?
Also, >#ObrimosSupremacy
Yes, I forgot about the T-Rex and I accept Mind 2 for shielding and defense.
Do you think Harry needs a dot or two in Life. He gets banged up pretty bad, but rarely suffers the effects.
His (pre-Winter Knight) dealings with the Fae might also justify a dot or two of Fate.
Sure, those do different things.
Mages don't really need help fucking over sleepers. A force field doesn't protect you from being teleported to Siberia, having your heart stopped, or somebody turning your clothes into Hydrazine.
>I'll be standing *behind* the Obrimos in my cabal.
That's alright, Obrimos don't lead from behind.
One of the quirks of the Dresden-verse is that Magic doesn't work that well with living beings. A big thing from what I remember was that wizards couldn't just use magic to heal themselves.
>A force field doesn't protect you from being teleported to Siberia, having your heart stopped, or somebody turning your clothes into Hydrazine
No, it doesn't, but that's not who such a spell is designed to defend against. Such a mage, usually an Obrimos, would use Prime is used counter such effects when dealing with other mages.
You are correct, defending against sleepers is usually trivial. However, most other major supernaturals and other horrors also still resort physical violence such as tooth and claw against their enemies, and the spell renders such attacks meaningless.
>big thing from what I remember was that wizards couldn't just use magic to heal themselves.
I believe healing magic is minor and rare in DF.
However, Wizards have very hardy constitutions, heal quickly, including slow regeneration, etc. This could be emulated with a dot or two in Life.
>Mages don't really need help fucking over sleepers
Large numbers of trained and armed humans can often present a threat, particularly to less experienced mages. A simple Forces 2 Shielding effect could allow a mage to casually deal with everything from a whole gang to a special forces battalion with no risk to himself.
Man prime should practically be free because it's the most necessary arcana in the game.
>prime should practically be free because it's the most necessary arcana in the game.
Prime..., and Space, Life, Fate, Time...
All the Arcana are so very useful. In fact, unless you're always fighting other mages, Prime is arguably less necessary than other Arcana.