Legacy General

Man parfait playing charbelcher is so much fun. It's so exciting watching it go off, especially with the guy infront of you has a bob on the field

It tilts me something fierce I tell you what

No they are not. If you don't have unnecessary bans like there in most formats combo would be dominating.

We get midrange and control because Wizards is pushing for it with bans and stupid card designs.

Okay, I'll bite. What banned cards needs to be unbanned for Aggro to have a good showing?

Also keep in mind that for the past 5 or so years wizards design philosophy has been HEAVILY tilted towards creatures being stronger and instants/sorcerers being weaker.

I don't need to keep that in mind. That is literally what I said. The creature power creep should not exist. Nimble mongoose should have been the staple, maybe Delver. Giving creatures abilities that should otherwise be possessed by enchantments or sorceries is fucking stupid.

Unban everything except power.
I imagine affinity would be looking quite good in such a scenario.

>unban everything but power
While I would enjoy a format like this, I can't imagine it would create a healthy meta. 4 mana crypt/4 workshop/4 trinisphere MUD would be disgusting. Storm with yawgwill legal would basically be circa-2003 Long.dec. affinity would be tier 2 at best in the face of shit like that.
Did I fall for the bait?

Shit let's not even talk about the academy decks. I'm falling for this bait so hard.

Nothing will ever be as powerful as LONG. Not even LONG.

Rules changed. The existence of Exile zone nerfed Burning Wish and Demonic Consultation shenanigans greatly.

It would still be a fuck-all fast and consistent beast of a deck tho.

>let's not even talk about the academy decks
No, lets.
>storm with Yawg will
Yawgmoth's Will should be unbanned. It would make storm no more degenerate than reanimator and more vulnerable to force. Storm could use a shot in the arm.

>Yawg will makes storm more vulnerable to FoW
That's some strong bait right there, but I'll take it.

You don't need yawg will to win, yawg will will just let you win next turn if you fizzled or got FoW'ed on a key card. Also, legacy has it's own extremely much weaker version in Past In Flames.

Before MTGO got most of the Vintage cards, it had a format called Classic. It had a restricted list, but didn't had power and some other cards.

Storm decks, even those based purely on LED+Yawg Will didn't care about FoW at all, the only thing that kept them from going rampant was shops.

You really don't know how resilient storm decks with yawg will are and even more so if given any draw 7's effects and you can't forget that in Legacy we have Brainstorm and Ponder unrestricted which, together with yawg will would lead to shit nothing in the format could even have a chance at fighting pre-sideboard, unless we'd also get shops decks.

Shhh, no tears, only turn one tendrils for 11 now.

I'm well aware of the rules change. It just means you wouldn't need burning wish anymore. You'd just play the yawgwills main.
>no, let's
>doesn't say anything about the academy deck
I don't see how a tinker/jar deck with unrestricted jar, tinker, academy, mana crypt, wouldn't be broken beyond belief. Or some kind of belcher/academy clusterfuck with living wish, like Danny batterman's The People's Cannon. 4 goddamn mana crypts. Fucking hell, you'd have time vault and voltaic key too in this fantask format. Christ I'm frothing. Can't stop falling for the bait.

If you're interested - Menendian has tested fully unrestricted Vintage decks.

Fully unrestricted storm gets practically 100% turn 1 win ratio, because of mulligans. Theoretically, it's probably 99.something, because in theory you can fail to find a mana source+tutor in all of your hands.

Other unrestricted decks do not even come close to such a win%, that includes belcher, flashhulk, etc.

4x Tolarian Academy
4x Mox Opal
4x Mox Sapphire
4x Mox Jet
4x Mana Crypt
4x Lotus Petal
4x Black Lotus
4x Memory Jar
4x Tinker
4x Windfall
4x Timetwister
4x Demonic Tutor
4x Ancestral Recal
3x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Underworld Dreams
1x Megrim
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Time Vault
1x Voltaic Key

No sideboard, coin-flip only, final destination.

Let me be clear. I play storm. I love storm. I have loved storm ever since I started playing back in 2007 when Nassif and Chapin dueled to the death in a storm mirror at worlds.

Yawg Will would take storm from tier 1 to tier 0. It would be excurciatingly painful to play against because suddenly you have a degree of resilience that is unparalleled. Shops MIGHT be able to steal a game, if they're on the play, and I roflstomped two shops decks in my store's vintage event with paradox storm, just because it does not give a fuck about what my opponent is doing. One counter won't stop me. One piece of hate won't stop me.

Storm does not need yawg will. We have PiF, we have magus. Shit's plenty good as it is.

I was not trying to bait you. Yes combo would probably be better, but an Academy affinity deck would be ridiculous.

I think I'm gonna bite the bullet and join this format. Big Red looks like the deck for me, any spicy variations on it?

I said no power.

Also provide link

you mean this? 70% goldfish with 1 card for protection?

starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/16641_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Unrestricted_Vintage_A_Magical_Experiment.html
and power 9

>take storm from tier 1 to tier 0
Where it rightfully belongs. Hail Yawgmoth.

Real talk though, how's Magus been working out?

I am a dumb cunt.

>unban everything but power
Literally turn 1: the format

Against sultai decks that expect to run out leovold as a way to lock me out of comboing out, it's sick. They're so afraid to trade it gives me time to dig for a decay or a win without needing to draw extra cards.

Against miracles it's not AS good, but countering a 3-drop is always awkward and he presents a respectable clock they probably boarded out their best answers to.

I'm considering bringing him in against stoneblade more but I'm not convinced he helps.

It's good to see legacy-playable cards coming out of supplemental product.

Can someone give me the rundown on 4c Loam?

Obviously yawgmoth's will is way too powerful for the format and would never be unbanned, but what do you guys think could be unbanned that would actually make the format better? Personally I think survival and frantic search are fine unbans that might improve the meta. I also think mind twist, earthcraft, and mind's desire would be fine to unban but wouldn't really change anything. Maybe if both search and desire were unbanned, high tide might be good again. Then there are some cards that I think would be ok to unban but probably not healthy for the format, like mystical tutor, dig through time, and necro. I am also not sure about yawmoth's bargain, would it actually be good? Would it replace ad nauseam?

Bargain is one of the most powerful cards on the list and will never ever be unbanned.

frantic fine on the list. Blue dosnt need more cards. If people want effects like that they can play red.

I think Necro would be an interesting unban, truth be told.

>unmask, ritual, necro
>necro for 19, pare down to god hand
>die to Gutshot

It would be interesting but I can't help but think it's too strong. I can't remember losing a game after resolving it. This is in vintage of course, but I feel like even in legacy it's too much.

Ok, fellas, I'm starting up a proxy legacy league in town because there are literally two people who have the resources to play here, and one of them doesn't like anything that he can't play moxen in.

So one of my roommates plays magic, but pretty much only commander, since that's the main format we all play. He's been playing for about a year and thinks legacy is stupid and everything is broken. He likes lantern control in modern, so I'm thinking of printing out a pox deck for him. Up to him if he uses it, but it's worth a shot.

So, I've never played with or against pox, anyone got any decklists?

>thinks legacy is stupid and everything is broken
>plays lets do stupid shit: the format
I really dont understand why people think legacy is is a format of turn one kills and dumb shit like that. The only time Ive seen a turn one kill in legacy was when a tes player drew THE NUTS and the other guy didnt have force. Most of the game i end up playing end like turn 3 at the SOONEST. Most of my games take like 7-10ish turns if i had to guess.

It's because of decks like Belcher and poops, and the way those decks are used to describe the power level of legacy. I've gotten. A few turn 1 kills, both with DDFT and Belcher.

What's poops? I want to play a poops deck

Hence why i'm trying to get him to change his mind. I'm really hoping this league get people more interested. Actually, has anyone here ever ran a league? Whats the best way to do it? Weekly swiss and play your opponent anytime during the week? We all meet at a games night every Tuesday, so maybe play up to two-three rounds per games night against different opponents? Just jam as many games with different opponents as you can every week?

What's a good X value on Chalice?

oops all spells. you ritual into a balustrade spy/undercity informer to mill your library then win with narcomoebas and dread return

>dicking around on xmage
>the fucking SPEED of this format

God damn. I wish it wasn't so expensive though.

Well, I had wanted to play Sneak n Breach on paper at some point in my life.

Yeah the price on breach is getting out of hand. My team split a playset, got them at 40 a couple months ago. They should have reprinted it in mm17

I just said fuck it and ordered proxies. My store allows it for weekly Legacy.

Sneak and Breach is the most fun I've had in legacy in a long time. $240 for a playset is well worth it when you get to see the look on your opponets face when you turn 1 sneak -> worldspine wurm or blood moon + chalice on 1.

>turn 1 sneak -> worldspine wurm
I did this on xmage tonight, it felt wonderful. Seething Song and SSG enable so many horrifying openers.

Well, given that what seems to be 90% of the format is decks that play 90% 1-cost spells... I would say X=1.

Thanks user. I'm still learning this format so please forgive my dumb questions

In the dark always put chalice on 1, against some decks chalice on 0 or 2 is back breaking

I think that if wizards said "We are going to try this and see what happens, not saying that it's no longer a problem, we're saying we want to see if it's still a problem or not" it would be a lot more doable.

What the fuck

Fucking Modern

Looks like it got hit with a buyout because it wasn't reprinted in MM17. Literally only two copies on TCG.

I've gotten a single FTK with ANT since I've been playing it, and had it not been game 3 against mono-red burn (where I knew he couldn't possibly have Force) I would not have gone for it.

Yawg willl would be way, way too powerful. ANT wouldn't exist with it unbanned.

>mind twist
That is the very, very last thing you want to see unbanned in any format where it can be played. I'll take ancestral unban before I'll take mind twist.

Also, necro is far too powerful as well, in Legacy would be even more powerful than bargain actually. If you don't have FoW for T1 - swamp, DR->necro: You lose. It doesn't matter what you do on your turn after necro has resolved, you've lost.

And in Legacy you'd have 4 necros, so who the fuck stops me to mulligan to DR+necro against everything that doesn't run FoW to have a guaranteed win? And against anything with FoW it's just a battle of mulligans.

Necro is broken even outside combo, unlike bargain, because of it's cost. It's just unrivaled card advantage for anything that can run it.

Because Legacy is the new Vintage. Before Modern, people thought Vintage is Turn 1 the format. Now Vintage is some mythical being that you need to be a multi-billionaire who runs several successful corporations, has heavily invested in oil and gold and has a genius level IQ to play, while Legacy is the new turn 1 boogeyman.

Vintage is prohibitively expensive though, to be fair.

>mind twist storm 20
>You are on the clock
REEEEEEEDE

I like it that way to be fair.

Same as I like Legacy having an entry price. As Chapin has said - If Legacy had a GP, Brainstorm would've been banned long ago.

The less opinionated people that cry about everything, do not put in any time to learn, adapt and improve and imagine they're the best and always right - the better for any format.

Heavy price points for entry in a way assures me that only those that really care about the format and enjoy it will come to play it, instead of a bunch of morons move over from standard or whatever fuck and start crying about every single card that should be banned/restricted and how unfair format is, and how they know the best on how to make it better.

>$240 for a playset
Nah man. Also fuck $700 for the mana base.

Pro Tour, not GP.

My bad, had my head up my ass.

These are all good points. I suppose the higher price barrier makes for people more willing to actually learn the format and decks therein. I'm still learning both Reanimator and Sneaky Red and on xmage people are much friendlier and willing to talk about their decks, as opposed to people bitching about the best decks like they do in Modern or Standard.

something from miracles to nerf that deck
terminus alone negates a ton of non-blue aggressive strategies
and possibly deathrite shaman since it's just way too good at what it does

Normally 1 is the go to. Although 0 and 2 can be devastating to the right decks as well.

I agree to a certain point. Although every community is going to have its autists no matter what. I do like how the price of entry keeps a lot of the meme lords out. But at this point its starting to kill the format. And I kinda draw the line when decks can be used to put a down payment on a car. Its a bit too much. Since wizards has show that they don't care, I honestly think the answer is a overall community push for unsanctioned proxy events just to get people into it. I mean at this point how many people actually care about playing at high level events at this point, since its all for modern n shit anyway. Are you really getting anything from playing in a DCI event on Friday night as apposed to just playing without signing in some ID numbers? I could easily see way more brewing happening as well if this were the case.

How many were there before?

Crazy. I sold mine at $35 because I figured such an expensive spell couldn't go any higher. At 5 mana, in a format with no fast mana, why not just hardcast Unburial Rites to cheat your fatty into play?

>terminus

eccch. If there's one card I'd be fine with them banning, it's Terminus. Wrath effects should always cost four mana, unless you start attaching a serious disadvantages to it.

>Wrath effects should always cost four mana
Not in this format. When creatures can dump your hand, lock out a color, lock out a cmc, deal lethal combat damage on turn 2, or simply can't be targeted/ blocked/ damaged in any way, answers need to be on par. And it's polite enough to put it back into your library.
Shit son, just counter it. Not that kinda deck? Then just rip another creature and continue the pressure. If nothing else, the age-old strategy of not overextending still applies.

I never understood why people hate terminus and not counter top. Blue has enough counters/permission without needing a lockout combo along side it. I actually really like the idea of using top to abuse miracle effects. But I hate how it can have the normal blue counter package AND a lockout combo. I mean chalice is annoying, but you know exactly what you can/cant do and you don't have to worry about a fuck ton of other counters ON TOP of chalice.

Because good players know that CB+Top is ok at best and easy to deal while terminus is basically better wrath of god because drawing cards isnt that easy

Why do you think not being [whatever negatives you care do list] and being vocal about brainstorm being a bullshit card are mutually exclusive just because the format has a buy-in? Take Miracles for instance, people have had fucking years to adapt to it but it's like 20% still. That's tier 0 and stifling format diversity more than anything wotc could do. It's not like it's the last blue-based control deck on the planet.

Sort of is actually. Big Blue/Tezzeret is dead as fuck in Vintage, Blue Control in Standard hasn't been good in years, and
>Control
>Modern

So yeah, Miracles more-or-less is the last bastion for UWx Draw-Go in the entire game.

>he thinks miracles is draw-go
>not a prison deck that aims to build DIY chalice asap and switch to beatdown at the earliest convenience
>only source of actual CA is jtms and predict if even that
You got memed, friendo.

Before the printing of Terminus, aggro was an actual archetype in the format with a range of options that existed alongside countertop decks. After terminus was printed and countertop decks began to evolve into miracles, aggro got pushed out by control, which caused combo to lose meta share. Now the meta has stabilized somewhat as decks adapted, but miracles still has a slightly outsize meta share. To put it simply, aggro is paper and miracles is rock. When terminus got printed, rock started to win against paper.

I don't advocate a banning from miracles, but if wotc felt it necessary, terminus would be the correct choice.

Price should never be a barrier. This sounds like "muh sekrit club". WOTC doesn't listen to the memelords in Modern, why should they listen to these?

I mean I don't know of any other game that prides itself on being 1000$+ to play because it drives people away.

Not that I think miracles is a draw go deck but I don't think you're entirely right. The deck is more prison control. The CA is more or less dependent on the specific players choice in cards and if any control deck had wincon available early on in the game of course they'd try to beat face fast. The deck can also be very tempo based, though it's not my preferred style to play the deck.

>Miracles more-or-less is the last bastion for UWx Draw-Go in the entire game
>P A U P E R
>A
>U
>P
>E
>R

Tfw when shop is all gung-ho for shitty formats like tiny leaders and Frontier but nobody wants to play pauper.

Shit man, now that's suffering. Thank God my shop doesn't do either and I always shit all over whoever mentions those buggers.

Maybe if Pauper actually becomes a real format then people will play it.

Who plays tiny leaders?

Honestly Frontier is only made because Modern is expensive, especially in Japan.

modern wouldn't have this problem if they aggressively printed cards in the first place like they seemed to say they would when the format was announced.

I mean each MM was pretty much them messing around with it and I think MM3 shows with how much value it is.

>MMA had tons of goodies but low print run,
>MM2 was wider printed, but most of the value was at rare so it's stuck with an inflated price

Supposedly MM3 has an unlimited print run, but we'll see.

it was certainly a step in the right direction
modern just has a lot of problems with card scarcity in general, with a lot of cards simply being one of the only good cards in their respective set and never seeing a printing anywhere else causing them to be very expensive in comparison

>Supposedly MM3 has an unlimited print run
Who's dick do I have to suck to make this true? I mean I hate modern, but MM has quite a few legacy staples in it as well. 20$ goyfs and lilies when?

>20$ goyfs when?

2007, approximately

Your playing the wrong format if you have a problem with $700 manabases or expensive playsets senpai.

Stupid frogposter

Guy's got a point, you are really in the wrong format if your not willing to drop >$1k on a manabase. Hell most decks with the exception of manaless dredge, burn, or oops! and a few other fringe decks going to cost more than $1000 to build.

Because Modern has a fucking boner for all things involving Primeval Titan

It just sucks that prices have been driven to this point. I'm still building the deck, mind you, it's just gonna take a little while longer. A set of Breaches and the City of Traitors are the only pieces I still need.

You can thank WOTC and their fuckery with the reserved list for those prices. Wizards wants legacy to die so they are trying to kill it by pricing new players out of the format. Eternal Masters helped some, but until we get more dual lands the format is ultimately fucked in the long term.

All investors and speculators need to be shot and their collections must be redistributed

Breach isn't on the RL, but honestly Wizards might as well keep a second list of "stuff they just don't reprint for a fuckbillion years"

Prefectly true, but breach isn't a gatekeeper for the format. It's basically the stuff on the reserved list that most decks run, the duals, CoTs, LEDs, Cradle, ect. that are the barrier to entry.