Tyranid Improvements Thread

I'm torn between getting a Mawloc or Trygon. I've read that the Trygon got nerfed to shit and is too expensive now, while the Mawloc can, with luck, get in a good few noms in a game by digging and popping over and over.

If a trygon can survive getting shot up, it will wreck anything it touches. A mawloc is unfortunately only good for the blast, but can't do much else. That's why I broke mine apart and magnetized the whole thing.

Something to do with adapting, Tyranid fluff is very heavy on the adapting to defeat a particular enemy based on their weaponry.

Making it a chart to roll on before the game doesn't make much sense though, too random

Perhaps something akin to how the Dark Eldar used to work? For every brood that is wiped out, the rest of the army gain an Adaptation token. Each adaptation token grants certain boons like improved Armour save, then toughness, then wounds, etc etc?

Yea I considered that too, only a spawned Tyranid can't adapt on the go, they have to be created with the bonus.

Still would be an effective tabletop fix

Probably less tokens and more a free upgrade based on who you're playing against.

Rather than making gimicky rules why not look at what their problems are currently and then come up with fixes to the issues that keep them from functioning properly? What specifically keeps them from being competitive?

Lack of speed, lack of flexibility. There are too many units that you just buy as they are without options, unlike previous incarnations of the codex. Our MCs are too expensive, our troops can't get shit done, and our specialists are too fragile.

Tyranids don't adapt to shit on the fly.
The Hive fleet PRODUCES new critters with suitable adaptations. The individual nids don't adapt. They die and get replaced with an improved version.

Ok, what upgrades would help with flexability. I understand there used to be more options back in the day. What could you bring back?

Increased movement speed? Something like the rules Skitarii have?

Point drop on MCs?

Would that fix them?

Statline upgrades, first of all. some of the offensive biomorphs as well.

yeah, like skitarii. There are a lot of infantry and a few specialists and MCs that could use an extra 3" to move.

Not just points drops: I think a few MC's need stat drops that can be bought back alongside a points drop. That high WS, S, and A don't help very much when I've built a two gun Tyrant or Carnifex.

mediafire.com/file/pjfqb9j4di96dtn/Codex_Tyranids_v_2.3.pdf

I've posted this a couple times. Feel free to steal ideas from it. I'm trying out a new synapse system with it that can be a bit harder to deal with late game but let's you spread out with a bit more confidence. But that's still in the real early stages of testing.

As a heads up, my group uses 6" charge ranges and the old version of the Rage rule.

Bring back the ludicrous customisation you could give everything. Just do that. I don't care about anything else except for maybe cost reductions.

This.

Wait, so IB applies if the unit is locked in combat?

Scythe Tail: Should the strength of the attack round up or down?

No, it only applies to models that meet the requirements listed in the first paragraph under IB, so they would have to be unengaged.

Up. Thanks for the catch. I'll add that.

Oh good, someone did make a new thread. I was about to do it myself but I checked the catalog just in case.

Still got a link to the old one in the archive for anyone who missed it Status update on my book:

Hive Tyrant (and Tyrant Guard) Datasheet is done except for Genofixed Strain upgrades (I would explain what those are but it'll just be easier to see when it's finished), pic related.

Hormagaunts, Termagants, Gargoyles, Genestealers+Broodlord, and Carnifexes are pretty much done.

I'm making a final pass on the Army-wide special rules right now, then I'll go over the psychic powers again because one of the psychic tables is kind of key to the whole army.

Keep up the good work, anoon

Bump. Don't die.

Page 10, really? this is much slower than the last thread

Bumping for the Hive Mind

Sorry, been busy with an unrelated game design project.

I'm still hammering out psychic powers. Probably will jump to Instinctive Behaviour and finish that and then go back to it, then post some stuff for feedback.

Wymorex being a snake thing?

I'm wondering if we could come up with Synapse specific abilities, depending on the unit in question. Tyrants affect the swarm in a different way from Warriors, so why not reflect that? Say, allow warriors to choose one friendly non-Synapse unit that can move and allow them to move 3" at the end of the Assault phase? For Tyrants, make them improve the overall strategy: +1 to Reserves, or reroll one friendly Outflanking unit, or reroll a DS scatter, or maybe allow one friendly unit to not scatter if they DS within 12" of it.

Rate my buff

>If Tyranid units are not under the synapse range, they will start cannibalizing themselves.

Cruddace/10

Why do we have a Tyranid Improvements general when you can still make them viable ? Sure you have basically one list to work with and it smells like rancid cheese, but it's still something.

Meanwhile, Orks are utterly unplayable on a competitive environment even with the IA stuff.

Don't missunderstand me, Nids have it bad, but not as bad as Vanilla Deldars or Orks.

Orks definitely need some love too. I don't play them though so I don't have that same feel for how they should play.

Definitely would like to see the klanz better represented though.

No one's saying they don't, I'm actually surprised that we don't see more fix Orks threads. The thing is, one good build doesn't make a codex as a whole good. The main concern is that the rest of the codex is overshadowed by the bullshit people use for competitive games.

Wyrmorex is a flyrant.

That is sort of reflected through the Hive Mind Imperatives table and also the genofixed strain upgrades on the Hive Tyrants.

Tyranids are just more popular. It's harsh to say but true. If Tyranids were in a better place and I had the time I would do Orks instead.

Hive mind Imperatives? where are those in the PDF?

I quit playing 40k when they released 6th edition, but even I still check on how Nids are doing these days because I still really like the models and would still be collecting if their codex weren't super boring.

Serious contribution? I agree with the guys saying to give Nids their options back. Let them be an army that fulfills various roles adaptively, instead of having one specific model that does only the role some chimp at GW wanted them to do.

Non-serious contribution?
>Cruddace/10

Let's make it so Lictors always count as moving through difficult terrain. Hive Guard weapons are now small blast weapons. Increase carnifex point cost to 360 base. Add the Heirophant to the standard game, but make it T6 3+ so my Guardsman can shoot it to death. Remove all weapons options from the codex so that Nids can't equip anything I don't expect. Add a rule to my personal army's codex that lets me re-roll misses when I target Nids. Did I nerf lictors yet? Make it so lictors are vulnerable to IB, and if they fail their IB check they get confused and join the enemy team, so your opponent gets to use them instead.

Finally, add a shit ton of gimmicks to the codex so that it's unclear for a month or two if any of this is viable.

It's one of the psychic tables, I haven't posted it yet because I'm still working on it. Check the Tyrant's powers and special rules.

personally i don't think we need much of the statline upgrades back.

the current style of upgrades granting special rules is better, upgrades feel more meaningful and there's more of a choice involved than just getting the best stats.

Another thing I'd like too see to deal with the overcrowding of the elites slot.
Steal the platton thing from IG, a tyranid "platoon" being a few gaunt squads as the bulk, warriors as the "command squad" and pyrovores, biovores, venomthropes and hiveguard can be the heavy/special weapon squads.

maybe instead of orders give the warriors are rule that they can grant +1BS/WS to a unit in their platoon. Call it Direct Control or something.

bring the mycetic spore back
1d4chan.org/wiki/Mycetic_Spore

Half everythings point cost, make Hive Tyrant WS7,S7,T7

Obviously the hivemind takes in the information about how it's been performing and utilizes it to best effect.
Nothing stays grounded, everything has wings.
Flyovores. Aerothropes. Hoverfexes. Flyrant Guard. The works. Pretty much every bug in real life has wings anyways, so it fits, and it means
There, fixed.

'and it means GW can sell ALL NEW MODELS' is, of course, what that one bit was.

Agreed. In most cases we don't really need statline adjustments anymore. A couple of them I moved over to weapons following the GSC precedent - ie, scything talons are now +1 WS, so if you're building a bug for combat it already has the combat buffs.

The one important one is armour save, so the Hardened Carapace upgrade is back (I went with the 'Hardened' name from 2e over 'Extended' from 3&4e because it just rolls off the tongue more easily, and I like callbacks to 2e nids).

We have it, it's called a Tyrannocyte now. Just needs some slight adjustments.

>just reduce the points costs guys!/meme
Your only contribution to the thread was bumping it.

>Pretty much every bug in real life has wings anyways
Tyranids are just as much based off of dinosaurs as they are off of bugs.

>Tyranids are just as much based off of dinosaurs as they are off of bugs.
Yes, that's part of the joke

Tyrranocyte is better.

It has the same transport capabilities + it can move and shoot.

I for once would like T5 Sv3+ Tyranid Warriors.

Lowered point cost of Bio-Plasma and increase in wings points cost.

Right, sorry I knew you were joking before I started replying to everyone and then forgot by the time I was finishing my post.

Anyways... if people have ideas for what to use for the last psychic power in the Predation discipline, let's hear em.

Currently it is:

Primaris - The Horror
1. Leech Essence (or something similar)
2. Paroxysm
3. Psychic Scream
4. Hypnotic Gaze
5. Warp Blast
6. ??

Possible ideas:
- A new version of the Maleceptor's Psychic Overload
- Something to stultify Overwatch (overlaps with The Horror causing Pinning though)
- A template Witchfire? (Was thinking of doing this for Leech Essence to separate it from the Life Leech in Biomancy)

Bumpy bump

Bumperino

Maybe make #6 spawn a small fortification? I've always wanted capillary nodes and towers to have a bigger role in the game. It would have a Synapse range, or maybe act as a DS beacon.

Too clunky, requires too much rules writing, requires additional models... all sorts of problems with that.

Capillary towers aren't really supposed to do anything at all except siphon biomass gruel up into orbit like a giant straw. Spore Chimneys can be represented by the new Sporocysts. Other Tyranid Fortifications may or may not deserve rules but they should be purchased with the army if so, not summoned with a psychic power.

I did something with those in at the back of the army list. The only thing I could think to do with capillary towers was similar to the beacon idea and have the player able to deploy one unit near each tower when an enemy moves within range.

Also included spore towers and areas of Forrest as secondary fortifications.

Proxy your tyranids as Eldar

/thread

Nah, you run them as Tau obviously so you can have squads of big-but-not-too-big things to support your monstrous creatures.
Obviously the change to being super shooty is just making sure Living Ammo is accurately represented.

flamer leech essence sounds a nifty idea.

for 6 maybe a debuff that lowers T or I or makes sucessful savea be rerolled, or some comnination of the 3.

>for 6 maybe a debuff that lowers T or I
Lowering Toughness definitely sounds rad oh god that pun was unintentional, I'm already adding lowering Initiative to the effects of Paroxysm.

Making them re-roll saves is interesting since mechanically that's what Living Ammo does on a 6 To Wound, I'm not entirely sure how to fluff it as a power though. I don't want it to just be like a Misfortune situation, that sort of divining stuff doesn't fit the Tyranids.

Probably gonna go with the Toughness debuff one.

>new rule
>tyranid aren't in the game anymore because they obviously don't belong in 40k
FIXED

Every unit should gain a benefit specified on its datasheet for being in synapse.

Biovores re-roll scatter, hormagaunts get furious charge, carnifexes strike at higher initiative etc.

>One of the original 40k armies doesn't belong in 40k

I want more endearing pictures of nids

>unfixed mistakes that last a long time stop being mistakes

You must be talking about Necrons.

filtered

Nice, does that work two ways so I also don't have to read your dumb bullshit? That would be super excellent.

This actually sounds really cool.

maybe toughness and strength debuff. fluff it as an energy drain thing.

I think theres a rulebook power that does s and T. But if nids only can use their trees i wouldn't be concerned about copying a couple of powers from lores they can't access.

It does, but I think in practice it's not necessary with the way I'm already designing the buffs and would eat up some design space that needs to go into Formations and things.

Yes there's a Biomancy power that does that. I have a single Hive Tyrant upgrade that lets it generate powers from Biomancy though so I don't know if I want to rip that one off completely.

And Dark Eldar and Tau.

>Yes there's a Biomancy power that does that. I have a single Hive Tyrant upgrade that lets it generate powers from Biomancy though so I don't know if I want to rip that one off completely
oh ok.

maybe just go for more shooting then?
maybe a "Warp Rift" power as a fleshbane, armourbane AP2 line?

>maybe a "Warp Rift" power as a fleshbane, armourbane AP2 line?
That seems way too powerful for a Tyranid-tier mindbullet. Stuff like that should be left to Daemons (press "F" to pay respects to Thousand Sons).

I'll keep thinking about it.

In other news, Army-wide rules are essentially finalized.

Warp blast is a pretty decent psychic shooting attack, what it lacks is an anti- infantry, lots of shots equivalent for shooting squads with. (blasts are awful)

I'm thinking the template version of life leech I suggested probably covers anti-infantry.

For the most part I feel like Tyranids offensive powers should be support/debuff oriented, that's why I really liked the idea of the toughness reducing one. Just gotta find a way to make it different enough from the Biomancy one to make them distinct, and also not make stacking them too breakable...

And what army do you play, friend?

maybe have it lower toughness and count as moving in difficult terrain next turn. fluff it is a cold power that leechs heat or something.

How to fix Tyranids:

>Fulgrim demonstrates his powerlevel by obliterating all Tyranid hive fleets

Right, see, that's actually what the Biomancy one does, lol.

Enfeeble - target unit suffers -1 penalty to Strength and Toughness, treats all terrain as difficult terrain.

Alright, folks, status update and itinerary.

Here's the rough draft on Army-Wide SRs (the final one will be nicely formatted and look consistent with the Hive Tyrant datasheet I posted here ).

Now I'm going back to touch up psychic trees some more, then it's back to finishing Tyrant genofixed strains. These three things sort of affected each other to various degrees so I've been stuck in the tangled mess of trying to figure out which to do first but I think I'm almost done.

Once this stuff has been figured out, MOST of the rest of the datasheets should go extremely fast apart from figuring out points costs, then it's on to doing bio-weapons and biomorphs.

After that it'll be Formations for the various Decurions (there will be three), as well as Hive Fleet tactics (similar to Traitor Legions rules).

I expect it'll take me about a week to get to playtest worthy status. Then I'll work on the fluff portions (I have a ton of shit for that scattered across 5 years of notes, unfinished short stories, and plans) while I let playtest feedback trickle in, and I'll make balance adjustments to the final document in between fluff work.

Oh, one thing I forgot to include, still gotta do that Shadows in the Warp table.

>Synapse Creatures can lose their Synapse after three rounds and you have to roll the dice to determine if they can keep the Synapse effect or not
>Remove the unit if it loses the Synapse effect

Bumping once more before I go to bed just to keep the thread topped off.

Nothing on my schedule tomorrow so it should be a productive day.

Crud/10

Fulgrim is as much of a NEET as Lorgar. He won't do anything productive ever.

Considering how it went: newcrons.

tyranids should be able to use fortifications.
their rules are generic enough and easily represent more stationary growths like spore chimneys or what ever you plan to make up.

Unassimilatable Bio-Mass/10

Also Buff Rupture.

Give Hive Tyrants and other HQ units wacky personalities

>turn them into monstergirls.

>Pyrovore gains torrent (probs needs rework)
>Gaunts can purchase without number
>Swarmlord either needs rework, to be cut or drop about 150 points
>Fexs and Tyrants can purchase 2+ save
>Warriors are T5
>Synapse creatures themselves gain a 6+ FNP
>Shadow in the warp causes enemy in range to peril on any double OR nids can negate one warp charge within range
>Warrior squads produce 1 WC but have no powers
>Psychic powers need reworking
>Lictors can only be snapshotted at first turn they arrive
>Stealers are now GSC stealer or drop them to 10-11 points
>All MC drop by about 30-40 points
>Remove feed
>Drop tyrant price but increase wing cost

Plenty m ore I can think of

>Pyrovore
Replace it completely with a new version of it and fluff it out as a evolutionary improvement.

>Gaunts can purchase without number
Fair enough.

>Swarmlord
Give him FNP (4+), Eternal Warrior and give his Bonesabers Shred.

>Fexs and Tyrants can purchase 2+ save
Fair enough.

>Warriors are T5
Add a 3+ Sv and you sold me.

>Synapse creatures themselves gain a 6+ FNP
This can work.

>Shadow in the warp causes enemy in range to peril on any double OR nids can negate one warp charge within range
That can work.

>Warrior squads produce 1 WC but have no powers
Dunno here. Need to think about it.

>Psychic powers need reworking
That and allow Nids to use Biomancy and other disciplines that would fit them.

>Lictors can only be snapshotted at first turn they arrive
Agreed here.

>Stealers are now GSC stealer or drop them to 10-11 points
The latter is better.

>All MC drop by about 30-40 points
Add points drop of certain Biomorphs and it's better.

>Remove feed
YES.

>Drop tyrant price but increase wing cost
Agreed here. Flyrant spam is stupid here.

Also buff Rupture Cannon.

The Tyranid's role as terrifying, nigh-unstoppable monsters would certainly be reasserted if you moved them wholesale to Bolt Action though.

I actually really like there being different rules for Genestealers and Purestrains. Purestrains are older stronger and smarter, but Nid codex Genestealers are vat grown en masse to be thrown onto the battlefield. One is carefully crafted by age and experience, the other is assembly lined. It's a similar difference between Patriarchs and Broodlords.

Yeah, I agree with this. It's why GSC ones are Elites and Tyranid ones are Troops. Tyranid Genestealers just need a drop in price to around 10 points per model.

As a tyranid player, my 2 friends play orks and eldar... me and my friend need help

Hence the drop them to 10-11 points

>Rupture cannon is AP2
>Tyrannofex is BS4
>Hive guard have exocrine targeting thing, where if they stop they become BS4
>Venom cannon needs major rework
>Bioplasma needs a huge points drop
>Bring back loads of biomorphs for fex
>Increase carnfiex attacks or WS
>Haruspex needs better WS
>Rework malecptor and toxicrene
>Gaunts beasts
>>Warriors drop to 25 points, but are standard 2 scything talons, can upgrade to rending claws or devourer for 5pts, also T5, possible 3+ save as a upgrade to purchase
>Scything talons allows re rolls of 1
>Double Scything talons allow re rolls to wound
>Dual rending claws rend on a 5+
>Devourer and Fleshborer have living ammo, may re rolls fails to wound of 1

Yet again probably more I have forgotten, need to make walking tyrants viable again too