Confession Time

The show in general is retarded. I discussed it with my brother, who watches it and really likes it. I expected it to be the same as the books, but was quickly disabused of that notion during our conversation. Mostly it's important but small details that got cut, but in some places it got mangled like in that guys pick.

This. If people actually read his shit the world would be a better place. Now lovecraftian is synonymous with tentacle hell and body horror which is kind of disingenuous. Most of his stuff is spooky because it's tasteful and paced, unlike basically everything in popular media.

I enjoy liking things that other people seem to dislike, but I don't mind things becoming popular. If I really wanted to be a Monk, and then my friend was like, "I'm gonna' be a Monk," I'd most likely not play a Monk. I'd rather try something others aren't. For me, it allows me to access a unique experience, and for others, I can be a conduit into that experience.

If something I like becomes popular, I do tend to get that feeling, that "I liked it first" and now my own personal feelings about the subject are now only an infinitesimally small portion of the whole, whereas before it might've been something more significant, but I can't say I care too strongly for the "bastardization" that hardcore fans tend to complain about. Sure, those instances are ripe for criticism, but I just don't feel like it matters in the end because you will always have the original material.

A Song of Ice and Fire, for example, still exists as a book series. The show hasn't changed that. None of my feelings for or knowledge of the book series has been altered as a result of the TV show. It's just an extra thing; and the people who are fans of the shows but resist reading the books, wouldn't have ever become fans of the books to begin with, so if you want to completely ignore them, go right ahead. They don't change anything.

I loved the original Powerpuff Girls series (more or less). I also liked the movie and I liked the anniversary special (although it had an impossible to ignore Foster's tone). A new series came out. It looks like shit. I was told it was shit. I haven't bothered with it.

...Does that change my feelings for the original? Why would it?

I fucking hate how mainstream traditional gaming is now.

20 years ago it was just us nerds.

Transitions in media are always rough.

Book Series to Movie is the hardest, because of obvious time constraints. Even if it's an amazing final product, a great many readers will be disappointed if their favorite side character or subplot gets the axe. Simplifying main characters bites them the hardest, but is also almost always a necessity.

Book series to TV series seems like it would be easier, but it's the same exact challenges with a fuck ton more piled on top. You have to create Drama in EVERY episode, Drama of a Scale that will draw in viewers in literally every episode. The risk of not doing so is losing the ability to continue the story. The writers do not exist in a storytelling vacuum. They have many people to please, and many massive expenses to justify. Here you lose the "early chapters" benefit of being able to craft a world with great care before an antagonist shows up to kick it over. That has to happen in ep.1 or no one will watch the damn thing and you'll never justify next seasons budget.

An author also has more time to write and rewrite and think and so forth. Once a show is running, you have to pump out product at pace for as long as it's on-air. Deadlines do little good to creativity as they get tighter.

TL;DR It's not so easy to please book fans with visual media. Nigh on impossible in many cases.

This is true, and I understand this, but I do have to wonder why they make significant deviations in some cases. A part of having an existing story is that you don't have to worry so much about writing every week, you just need to worry about getting it onto the screen. Departing from an established story line seems silly. I can understand that in some cases they do it to add more drama and hype, but taking the example from the pic above would it really have been so bad to do it the way it was in the books? There would still be tension between Stanis and his men and the factions in the army. You could make cannibals and orders to see his heir on the throne period dramatic.

> The obvious example would be ASoIaF
The problem with ASoIaF isn't that it's bad (even though it is), but it isn't even the best thing G.R.R have written.
Tuf Voyaging, despite being painfully obvious self-insert fiction, is much, much better, especially The Plague Star.

I grew up on SF like Asimov, Lem, Bradbury, Harrison, Shackley, and yet The Plague Star is still pretty much one of the best examples of how to write an SF action novel right.

>The problem with ASoIaF isn't that it's bad (even though it is)
It really isn't, people are just prone to exagerate their opinions.

It's pretty fucking bad, mate. I don't have any other arguments besides personal experience, but the writing is fucking shite. G.R.R. simply doesn't know how to write anything longer than a novel (~100 pages) properly.
I've only managed to read, like, what 2 books in the series at most? And that's coming from me, who read the entirety of Stainless Steel Rat saga in, like, two days or so, despite it being rather standard pulpy SF about a "dashing rogue" in space.

>ASoIaF is good really guyz
>Muh politics (are simplistic)
>Muh gritty "realism" (is banal, overstated, and poorly researched)
> The author isn't afraid to kill people when they should die guyz (except for the ones that matter to the overall progression of his shitty plot)
> He's a good writer guyz (If you haven't read real literature and don't know any better)

Anything I'm missing?

Fair point.

But think about the time that this portion on the plot occupied, and how to fit the alternative into said time. The size of the text blocks are a clue.

Also, think about the weight of the story so far. There are characters in there that are not even in the same area at the time. How much more screen time does it take to get them there, or what would not doing so do to change the story? How much time to intro the northern tribes and such?

Now fit that into the 30 episodes remaining for all of the plots to resolve, without losing something more important or making any other motivations change enough to swing the whole world in a direction not outlined in the books.

And that's just one of a great many plot choices to be made in a very short time.

Again, I see where you're coming from, but I can see where the TV writers are coming from as well.

Plus having a show doesn't nullify the existence of the books, nor vice versa, I suppose.

I hate Game of Thrones (TV series) because it made indirect spoilers, simply by omiting some interesting characters that are still alive in Dance with Dragons you already know they wont matter in the books (e.g. Aeagon Targaryen)

Fair enough. I'm not familiar enough with the TV series to estimate how much difficulty would be imposed by changes in prior seasons, and I don't know enough to second guess every single change.

And you are right, books and shows are different. I don't even really care since I don't like the book series too much. I only read it because it was literally the only English book series I could find when I was living in Taiwan and I was in desperate need of reading material.

But when it's an IP I care about it does make me sad to see it done poorly, not because it invalidates the books, but because I would hope the show could be something I'd enjoy just as much as the series. More media i could pile on top and increase my enjoyment, rather than something I have to avoid or hope people don't bring up.

Its a competent deconstruction of the fantasy gernre.
The writing style isn't anything to write home about, but it's not terrible.
There are issues like pacing and GRRM not being too familiar with things like how medieval battle works, but it definitely isn't as bad as you make it out.

>But when it's an IP I care about it does make me sad to see it done poorly, not because it invalidates the books, but because I would hope the show could be something I'd enjoy just as much as the series. More media i could pile on top and increase my enjoyment, rather than something I have to avoid or hope people don't bring up.

This I totally get. ASoIaF vs GoT doesn't bother me too much as I started late as an outsider to both.

But some things still get to me on a groggy level. Especially the 25 years later sequels and and 5 minutes later soft reboots that actively attempt to step on decent previous works, all too often to make a CG driven cash grab for an overseas market that had never heard of the property before that anyway.

>deconstruction
There's that word again.
Gritty fiction does not a deconstruction make.

I'm a history autist, and I work in politics. I love reading. It's been my favorite passtime since I was in kindergarten. I can't help but compare him to other authors. His works offend me, but I understand why they appeal to others. I still can't help but take the piss out of them, same as how I can't help but troll idiots who think the hunger games and harry potter are the pinnacle of literature. Admittedly ASoIaF is better than those, but it's still not as good as people make it out to be.

What should I read?

>but it's still not as good as people make it out to be.
Never said that.
Only pointed out that people tend go into unnecessary extremes, especially when it comes to pop culture.

It really isn't, but there are a lot of people who think it is. I attribute this to the deaths of the Starks. Innexperience readers were fooled into thinking they were being set up as the heroes, and seeing them go down appeared to run contrary to the idea that the heroes are invincible and win. What those people don't realize is that the Starks were never the heroes, they were the red herring. The heroes are still kicking, still winning, and getting on just fine despite numerous incidents that should have finished them.

>Admittedly ASoIaF is better than those
That's a rather low bar you're setting there, mate-o.
Depends on what do you want from your fantasy.

Something that is gritty and realistic, preferably set in a Middle Ages or Renaissance period.
Also, what makes real literature?

I had to set it at a point it could get over.

Honestly "real" literature is subjective. There are "Authorities" who have oppinions on the matter, but quite frankly unless your an elitist snob you don't give a shit about what they think. I'm saying that and I'm the guy who posted . So when I say real literature I'm saying people who have never read what I consider to be quality literature, which is subjective. And I admit that it is subjective, but I honestly do believe that if people would give them a chance they would see they are better.

Forgive me for saying this, but I worry when people say gritty and realistic, not because I don't understand the desire for something with more substance and realism than high fantasy, but because they often go hand in hand with certain popular misconceptions about what history was like while missing the more pertinent details.

That being said I'll take a bit and go through my rolodex and try to come up with some recommendations. Could you perhaps give me examples of what you have read and enjoyed so I have a reference point? ASoIaF I assume. What else? After all good literature is subjective, and If I have some idea of your tastes I can make better recommendations.

The Once and Future King is my personal recommendation, if you want an interesting book set in fantasy medieval, even though it doesn't fit your description entirely.

I'd recommend giving Black Company and/or Gentleman Bastard a try, if you haven't already.

hyperbole has become the most common method of argument because people have forgotten how to debate properly, if they ever knew how. Sad but true.

In what reality is Once and Future King gritty OR realistic?
Its great and all, but why would you even think of it in this context?

I wouldn't really call Gentleman Bastard series gritty. It's good, sure, but not really gritty.
Pretty much the first thing that came to my mind. Hey, we all have our flaws.
Well, actually, the first thing that came to my mind was Garrett P.I., but that's definitely not gritty or realistic or even that good.

Maybe I'm an idiot but I thought there were too many sex scenes in the show. I can watch porn if I want sex scenes. I just wanted to watch fantasy battles. I also really hate that the show will finish before the books. I don't understand how Martin could let his own story get out of his control. I stopped watching after a couple seasons and I probably won't finish read the final books (if they ever get released).

I try not to be a hipster, but sometimes I have to be.

>that pic
This is too real for me.

I play gurps exclusively, drink craft beer, and have strange facial hair and hats.

I am a hipster in all but corfuroy

There is nothing hipster about G.U.R.P.S.

Shhh, don't crush his illusion of superiority. It's all he has left.