How would you kill her?

Build a bigger city right outside that absorbs Sigil as it sprawls.

Undo ALL of "Capital motherfucking C" Creation.

But otherwise, I wouldn't because that's retarded.

Sigil needs more diversity.

This
/thread

Turn it into a campaign-spanning adventure and subplot with the players' decisions ultimately determining how the universe itself plays out. It's the B-plot to another conflict, a necessary obstacle en route to something greater. Sigil's guardian must fall that creation endures (or collapses, whatever).

I'm not triggered by a plot device that happens to look something like a person so I don't need to kill her.

What's more diverse that fucking everyone?

Do people hate Lady of Pain because it brings an uncomfortable dose of reality into their power fantasies?

D&D has always contained an element of power trip where your ordinary peasant level 1 hero can grow up to challenge gods with hard work and determination.

Undefeatable enemies such as Lady of Pain break that comfortable illusion by reminding players that in real life they have absolutely no chance to become as accomplished in their field as Einstein, as famous as Elvis or as rich and influential as .

sounds gay and contrived

Vecna almost did it once and didn't even get LADY'd over it, so we know it's possible.

And she actually gives a shit abkut her dabuses (dabii?), so there's probably means to do so. Firing lasers and attacking her aren't the right ways to do it though. I have a feeling she needs Sigil as a power source or some shit.

tl;dr team up with Vecna

People hate the Lady because in a game where you thwart the machinations of lowly scoundrels to the greatest of gods by strength and cunning, she is both infallible and invincible. No amount of might, no matter the complexity of your strategy, you will fail. She represents an undermining of the fantastic empowerment that is heroic RPGs like D&D.

She's just annoying. It's like making a good video game and the "last" level is unbeatable.

Flood Sigil with Drow refugees.

So it's just murderhobos crying because they can't get their murder on?

She's not meant to exist as a challenge, she's meant to exist to facilitate the setting.

That's certainly an odd conclusion to draw from my statement. As I said, in a game about surmounting challenges, she represents an area of the game that refuses to be challenged. It's incredibly vexing when portions of the game refuse to play and it is in stark opposition to the adventurous, heroic spirit that is the heart of the game.

Basically. She's a plot device to explain why all the Gods and Demons and shit haven't taken over Sigil so the PCs can adventure from it.

To personify a setting caveat was, at best, a mistake on the developer. At worst, it was intentional spite against players who challenged prior settings. While this is anecdotal, non-player characters like the Lady are present in many homebrewed settings. They are usually decried, called out for the authorial intervention that they are.

>Hating on planescape
>Hating on Sigil

What is it like to be born without taste?

Super fucking contrived.
It basically seems like they needed an excuse for why the gods didn't interfere with Sigil, so they invented something that could kill gods, and then they expanded on it untl you have the Lady.

She's not a level, she's not meant to be faced.

I've never understood why people get so upset about the Lady of Pain but seem to give Ao a pass.

Your problem is that you're thinking about it as a video game where any powerful being is just a chance for you to prove how awesome you are by killing it.

0/10 would not game with

I don't give Ao a pass.

>non-player characters like the Lady
The Lady is not a character. She might LOOK like a character, and the fact that she's called a "she" probably doesn't help, but she is not a character. She's something more like a law of the universe that just so happens to take a vaguely humanoid shape within reality.

It helps that Ao doesn't walk around the streets of Waterdeep; your average muck-farmer on the Sword Coast doesn't know about him. But yeah, it's the principle.

So, like I said, to personify this setting conceit was a mistake. Most likely. Can we agree that the concept could have been tackled in a way that does not infringe upon the premise of a heroic, mythological and literature inspired RPG?

Ao bothers me more than the Lady, if only because he's actually portrayed as a person.

>To personify a setting caveat was, at best, a mistake on the developer. At worst, it was intentional spite against players who challenged prior settings

Wrong on both accounts. TSR wanted a setting that encapsulated all settings and supported all cosmologies. Zeb Cook took that challenge and came up with Planescape. The Lady of Pain character came about during development from idle sketches of a designer that was matched to a poem that Zeb liked. They needed a way to actually have the setting make sense and to have a product identity, so they used the Lady of Pain, a totally neutral keeper of the crossroads of the planes.

In what way did any portion of that post discredit the claim that the personification of this setting conceit was a mistake? I say this because you only explained how it came to be.

>Bait a box trap with whatever squirrels like to eat.
>Smash box with hammer

Of course heroic, mythological and literature heroes aren't unbeatable things that face down EVERYTHING, they face down powerful enemies, but Heracles didn't fight a god, nor did Gilgamesh, King Arthur, Lancelot, and heck even if the hero IS a god there's still limits. Thor is outmatched by things.

I don't think the existence of the 'Bigger Fish' that the Lady represents infringes on mythological inspiration though. Even a bunch of crazy bastards like the Olympians generally recognize that they can't overcome the Fates.

Because it gave a unique setting identity that was both interesting and unlike anything before it, while still using so many elements that were familiar to players while introducing newer concepts.

The problem with Planescape for me is that it relied too much on our real world mythologies and gods.

That still does not actually confront the issue of the need to personify this concept. That's more like an opinionated description of the setting.

>could have been tackled in a way that does not infringe upon the premise of a heroic, mythological and literature inspired RPG?
The Lady doesn't.

/thread

Thor is destined to be killed by the world serpent, but he rises to the occasion and slays the beast anyway. In these stories, there is struggle even if it may end in failure for the heroes. The issue here is that there is no room for struggle: this pseudo-character exists only as a kind of justification to the setting. It is not a superior foe beyond your means, it is the author shouting you down.

My belief is that such a character was not necessary. A caveat, a rule, a conceit that fulfills similar functions is necessary, but what we have is disappointingly crude.

I suppose there's nothing I can say to such a bold, self-evident declaration of fact.

>issue of the need to personify this concept

The entirely metaphysics of D&D is around the personification of concepts, like alignment for instance.

On a note, I see a whole lot of institance that Planescape is all about the empowerment of the players to the point of defeating Powers.

Wrong. Planescape is a cynical uncaring setting, surrounding it's myriad philosophies of reality. The Powers or gods are something you will not get the best of, or fight, let alone defeat. You many never even meet one unless they want to meet you. Usually a Power meddling in your affairs is only a bad thing, because it comes with so much baggage. Planescape is rife with things that are bigger than the players, there is always something bigger than the players.

The Lady of Pain is essentially this, a power that brooks no worship, and maintains a realm of planar neutrality.

No, he doesn't "Rise to the ocassion to slay the beast anyway". He is destined to be killed by, and kill, the world serpent.

And we see Thor LOSE before that.
Thor, during the challenges between Jotun and Aesir, LOSES. He loses three times.
He cannot lift the world serpent, he cannot drink the ocean, and he cannot fight age.

I think Dabus is both singular and plural

Or at least that's how it was used in Torment

That's a lot of personal sentiment about Planescape and little argument. D&D has always described itself as a game where you accomplish deeds worthy of legend, or perhaps die forgotten in a tomb. Planescape is still D&D, just as much as Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, and Eberron.

Struggle is the key word that was missed.

I'll also point out that the wrestling match with age is a perfect comparison.

Thor LOSES to the inevitable.

The Lady of Pain is a personification of something that cannot be fought, just like Elli. But there isn't the moral lesson.

I think that "don't start shit, don't get hit" is a valid moral lesson.

That there is a wrestling match at all is a good step closer than what we have. But let me step back. I'm not here to argue about philosophy and mythology.

People wondered why others dislike the Lady of Pain. I've done my best to explain and extrapolate on it. She is a crude, useless personification of the author's desire to hold the setting together. If she were not personified, nobody would care.

It's still D&D, but it's a setting focused more on philosophical adventures rather than the usual dungeon crawling fantasy adventures the other settings have.

Find out through painstaking research where she derives her power
Seek to remove it

>That's a lot of personal sentiment about Planescape and little argument

Nope. From the tone of the writing of the books, to the rules themselves, Planescape is cynical and uncaring to your plight.

It's the multiverse, you are not special, there are millions like you. There are no rules to fight Powers, no manner how badass of a wizard you become, there are many more just as badass as you, some even more.

Sure, you accomplish deeds worthy of legend in Planescape, but so has everybody else. You'll most likely die trying to do such things instead, which is what happens most often.

I've heard loads of people say this, but like, my planescape games were still about killing a lot of dudes who had the things we wanted or were doing things we didn't like.

Dunno who this bitch is, but--

Boolit.

>If she were not personified, nobody would care.

How do you maintain a totally neutral planar crossroads then, that's inherent to the setting and campaign identity?

Her power source is Sigil. She is omnipotent while within Sigil and destroying Sigil would likely destroy the entire multiverse along with it.

Remember that Vecna screwing with Sigil was enough to cause the multiverse to switch from 2e to 3e and he really didn't even do much damage. You can't destroy her without messing up everything else.

4e cosmology worked just fine with Sigil just kind of floating off in an unimportant corner, with the material plane being the true hub of the cosmos.

I mean sure, but now there is an extra philosophical dynamic.

You can want their shit because you philosophically believe it should be yours if they can't defend it.

The game is referred to as philosophers with clubs for a reason.

4e Sigil didn't belong, as the cosmology was not really a wheel, there was no center to it.

Planescape isnt a 4e setting.

make her a god. then her own rules don't apply to her.

>You can't destroy her without messing up everything else.
So lure her away from Sigil, most likely a very costly event possibly involving the creation of entire nations just to outrage her enough to come destroy them personally. Literally raising nations to sacrifice to buy a few hours of time.
Get the planescape equivalent of a thermonuclear device into the city and kaboom.

But if this could destroy reality, then its only a symbolic victory, and I hate those.

So if she draws her power from Sigil, why not change the character of the city? Control Sigil, and you may control the god.

Let's see, I'm gonna spend the time it takes for my post timer to reset thinking about this.

You could say that at the center of the multiverse, the power of the planes has no meaning. While certain individuals can still practice their magics, the inevitable pull from all corners (including one's home plane) prevents any one aligned force from occupying for long.

Or, on the other hand, there is no super force clamping down on the city. Who controls the crossroads changes by the hour, with the shifting influence of all worlds rising and falling from prominence constantly. With such fluctuation, it becomes impossible and fruitless for anyone to truly lay a claim on Sigil.

There's nothing really stopping you from starting a cult dedicated to the Lady of Pain on a few prime material planes where she can't reach you. If you can cultivate enough believers she'd presumably become a god.

Sigil existed in it, filling almost the same role. So did the Lady, and while she wasn't statted (most of the gods weren't), she was not called out as being unassailable. The other big difference is that, well the multiverse isn't a wheel. It's more like layers of creation, overlapping each other, with some going metaphysically "up" or "to the side". At the center of this is the material plane, which is why all covet it. There are many secret pathways from the other planes to the material world, and creatures from every dimension often use the world as a halfway point during their trips.

| guess the material plane was really 4e's Sigil, in that respect.

Not really. It was the same kinda stuff, but with more outsiders and portals. That guys a dick who eats babies. We need the Thing of Somedude in order to open the door to Thatplace so we can retrieve the Treasure of Longtimeago.

The problem comes in when you factor in Powers and gods. They're all unstoppable forces all laying claim to the center. It wouldn't be a city or a crossroads but more a battlefield, which while cool, defeats the purpose of a hub for players during planar adventures.

She doesn't leave Sigil, ever. And she doesn't care about anything that occurs outside of it.

Also you can't seize control of Sigil, the last God who tried vanished only for his corpse to reappear floating in the Astral Plane with the Lady's blades sticking out it it.

Sure, I bet you were all playing Indeps. Thing is you could do the same thing, but philosophically reinforce your ideals by being a Taker.

If they're all unstoppable it balances out then doesn't it?

You could easily extrapolate those guidelines out to gods and powers and whatever else have you. Their power wanes at the hub, making it impossible to control. Or they manage to make a foothold and are then yanked back to their home turf unexpectedly or worse, scattered among the planes when an unpredictable cosmic event happens.

Wow, took me 25 seconds.

So, basically the same shit I could do in any other game but I get to feel smarter about it?

Not in the slightest as there would be nothing left. Fighting a nuke with a nuke doesn't negate each other. You just drop two nukes on the same place.

So you gave a contrived answer to a problem because you were dissatisfied with a different contrived answer?

So the gods are in a MAD situation so i guess that means you get cold war god edition.

Hey, it took me a minute and change and I came up with an answer that's *at least* as good as the LoP. That ought to tell you something.

If you reduce any d&d game that much they all wind up identical. Planescape is all about its fluff.

Right outside Sigil? That isn't how Sigil works...

Not really, because with the LoP there is actually a reason as to why. You can put a face to it. Your answer is "because"

Fuck you, mang, I do what I want

>She doesn't leave Sigil, ever.
Then why do people care?

Basically, the Lady of Pain is pure plot, with no game, unlike the rest of DnD which tends to be about 40-70% Plot and 60-30% game.

Just because a person said it doesn't make it less contrived, dude. I'd argue that people would be more accepting of an environmental condition than an overlord.

>Cold War God

That's exactly what Planescape is once you get outside of Sigil. The Blood War is officially between the Demons and Devils but almost everybody is fighting in it via proxy while maintaining enough plausible deniability to keep it from spreading outside of the Lower Planes.

So why do we need "Rocks fall, party dies" in a pointy mask then?

Hell, shit I can go even further with this. I can take this bullshit answer and spin it into stuff the players can actually mess with, like magical principles and items, cool fucking environmental hazards, tricks they can pull in the hub that they can't do anywhere else. There's material here!

They don't, at least in-setting. It's just that irl people have a problem with an entity that can't be beaten even if she does absolutely jack shit unless you intentionally screw with her.

An environmental condition is boring. A blizzard by itself is just a blizzard. A blizzard caused by an evil frost wizard is much more interesting.

Vecna tried pretty hard and came pretty close by circumventing her rule about no gods by entering pre-godhood and becoming a god while there.

Why do you feel the need to poke the pointy-masked plot device when you know she can TPK your party even more efficiently than falling rocks?

Only if you can mess with the wizard dude.

Besides, scroll up. Boom, damn, I could make half a dozen wonderous items out of my BS concept of why Sigil is Too Neutral for Neutral. And then I could do some loopy hazards to spice up any fight that happens there. Or maybe my players could turn it against me? Who knows?

I know what's happening when the LoP is in the picture: fucking nothing.

>an entity that can't be beaten even if she does absolutely jack shit unless you intentionally screw with her.
That seems pretty fair actually

Answer the question!