/STG/ - Star Trek General

Tossed salad and scrambled eggs edition

Previous thread A thread for discussing the Star Trek franchise and its various tabletop iterations.

Possible topics include Star Trek Adventures - the new rpg being produced by Modiphius - and WizKids’ Star Trek: Attack Wing miniatures game, as well as the previous rpgs produced by FASA, Last Unicorn Games and Decipher, the Starfleet Battles Universe, and Star Trek in general.


Game Resources

Star Trek Adventures, Modiphius’ 2d20 RPG
-Official Modiphius Page
>modiphius.com/star-trek.html
Playtest Materials (via Biff Tannen)
>mediafire.com/folder/36m6c22co6y5m/Modiphius Star Trek Adventures

Older Licensed RPGs (FASA, Last Unicorn Games and Decipher)
>pastebin.com/ndCz650p

Other (Unlicensed) RPGS (Far Trek + Lasers and Feelings)
>pastebin.com/uzW5tPwS

WizKids’ Star Trek: Attack Wing Miniatures Game
-Official WizKids Page (Rules and Player Resources)
>wizkids.com/attackwing/star-trek-attack-wing/


Lore Resources

Memory Alpha - Canon wiki
>en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Portal:Main

Memory Beta - Noncanon wiki for licensed Star Trek works
>memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

Fan Sites - Analysis of episodes, information on ships, technobabble and more
>pastebin.com/mxLWAPXF

Star Trek Maps - Based on the Star Trek Star Charts, updated and corrected
>startrekmap.com/index.html


/stg/ Homebrew Content
>pastebin.com/H1FL1UyP

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=h2hs0oZ6JuQ
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

Modiphius, pls
We need more content for this thread

HOW BOUT THEM DREADNOUGHTS!

What about them?

Try again, pal.

It IS kinda neat that they have both 4/4 gun slots, AND 2 hangar bays. Also temporal buff modes and the time beam blaster (which combines with the lance to be TWO time beam blasters).

This kills the Damar

It's a damn shame that the only characterization for this guy turns him into a 19th Century New England Naval Tradition obsessive. His whole ship basically looks like it stepped out of the pages of some sailor's bar. I'd prefer if he was Frasier, with the rest of the cast there. And his dad as Chief Engineer.

Damar really has one of the most interesting character arcs on the entire series imo.
From literally who to head of Cardassia to resistance fighter.

The Cardassians in general were brilliant. I love that so much of their characterisation was made through minor details, rather than the expositionary info dumps we tended to get with the Klingons.

Huh? He was on screen for, what, 2 minutes?

Novel canon.

Fan fic? Who gives a fuck about fan fic?

Hell, we have trouble getting all the movie and TV show scripts to "fit" together. Why add more shit to the equation?

how abhorrent
I'll allow it

>Licensed novels are fanfic

There's a reason we have Memory Beta, user. Similarly, there's a reason that only licensed works appear there.

Gul Dukat for president 2020.

It's actually not bad in a way. Bateson and his crew are revered in their particular sector because of the way they disappeared, and when they get to the future, they all have issues with the fact that they're in the future, and everyone they knew is dead. Oh and the whole crew are stupidly famous, when they're just working joes. The obsession with Nantucket was a bit much though.

>There's a reason we have Memory Beta, user.

The reason Beta exists is to keep Trekkies happy. If it were worth a damn, it would be in Alpha and not segregated on the Beta Short Bus.

>>Similarly, there's a reason that only licensed works appear there.

Paramount would license a Trek line of Depends if they thought there was a buck in it.

Published Trek fan-fic is nothing more than romance novels for neckbeards. Instead of a cover with a shirtless Highlander hugging Jane Austen meant to catch the eye of some morbidly obese Tumblrina, you slap the word "Trek" on the cover to catch the eye of some morbidly obese sperglord.

Here's a handy-dandy guide to tiers of canon:

>Alpha Canon (shows and films)
Captain Bateson commanded the USS Bozeman, which became caught in a Temporal loop and was eventually saved by the USS Enterprise. The Bozeman was mention in several other instances, including the battle of sector 001 and after the destruction of the Amargosa Star. Whether or not this was the same vessel or was commanded by Bateson is unknown.
Andorians have 2 sexes, owing to the exclusive onscreen use of male and female pronouns, as well as only 2 parents. However they seem to have a complicated social structure regarding marriage, possibly owing to the unforgiving nature of their homeworld.

>Beta Canon (licensed books and games)
Bateson commanded the Bozeman until she was retired in 2371. However the same crew went on to operate her successor, the Bozeman-A, which was the vessel present a 001.
There are differing accounts of Andorian gender. One novel series claim that Andorians have 4 sexes and this left them chronically underpopulated. However this is not supported by the show, which clearly shows that the Andorians have 2 sexes. The Aenar may technically count as 2 separate sexes, owing to their divergent physiology. However the novels and show cannot be reconciled and should be considered different universes.

>Gamma Canon (fan-fic)
Bateson was the protege of captain Pavel Checkov. He was a diligent and upcoming commander. Before his dissapearence, he was considered for the position of captaining the new Enterprise.
My self-insert character has a harem of Andorian Futas that take turns pounding him in the ass and then letting their ovipositors slide down his throat.

Boy you sound like a lot of fun. Why do you still come to these threads, by the way?

I'm not discussing the merit of the books in question, just the express difference between licensed work and self-published pseudo wish fulfilment.

>Andorian Futas that take turns pounding him in the ass

Sounds like they have him pegged

...

>Tossed salad and scrambled eggs edition
>Captain Frasier
Brilliant.

/thread.

Star Trek: Frasier actually happened

youtube.com/watch?v=h2hs0oZ6JuQ

>Obsession with Nantucket

Well you're gonna have to explain that one.

The author of the book bought a boat before writing it, and they live in Massachusetts, so Bateson's whole shtick is that the Bozeman is basically a Northeastern US fishing boat. For fuck's sake, there's even a ship's wheel on the bridge that they mess with.

So this, then?

>However the novels and show cannot be reconciled

That's bullshit, it's easily reconcilable. Two Andorian sexes are considered "male" and two are "female", so there's no need for four separate pronouns. And nothing in the show directly contradicts the idea of four Andorian sexes.

>Fan fic? Who gives a fuck about fan fic?

For fuck's sake this is starting to piss me off.

LICENSED WORK, BY DEFINITION, CANNOT BE FAN FICTION. It can be good, or bad, or horrible, or great, or stupid, or insightful, or any number of other things. It can be hard canon or soft canon or not canon at all. But if an IP holder licenses you to make something, then that thing is literally - and I actually mean "literally", I'm not being a tumblrina or redditfag or whatever, the actual word is appropriate here - CANNOT be fan fiction BY THE VERY DEFINITION OF FAN FICTION, which exclusively refers to unlicensed works made without the consent of the owner of the Intellectual Property in question.

WORDS HAVE FUCKING MEANING. USE THEM, YOU ILLITERATE PHILISTINE.

"Illiterate" here is obviously being used as a form of hyperbole to emphasize my displeasure at the incorrect usage of the term "fan fic". The difference between using "illiterate" in this fashion and user's use of fan fic is that one is a commonly accepted hyperbolic term, while the other is deliberately misleading since fan fiction solely refers to unlicensed works.

As an addendum, please note that I don't care about the user's opinions on licensed Star Trek works. If he honestly falls into seething, pants-shitting fury at the sight of a Star Trek novel and has mental breakdown every time someone suggests that a thing from a novel is or should be hard canon, that's his thing, and I don't care.

I solely object to his choice of words.

I propose that in the interest of differentiating fan works from canon we use the Trek thing that's not a cannon and call them torpedo tales.

Oh god, not this again.
WE JUST DID THIS LAST THREAD, FOR FUCK'S SAKE.

But... Those are phaser cannons in that pic...

Damn dude, calm your anus and quit sperging out. Not even the user you're yelling at either.

We can't even agree on a consistent canon. Hell the shows/movies can't even agree on that. And it's not as if anyone here is actually doing/playing anything where a consensus is even needed so why bother?

The 4 sexes, in the novel, are mandatory for reproduction. Shran and Aenar-lady seem to have reproduced effectively on their own. Not to mention that the Andorians specifically refer to fellow Andorians as Male or Female. No Thans, Chans, Shens or Zhens in sight. Hence, the 2 narratives can't be reconciled.

The only argument in favour of there being 4 sexes is that it's never explicitly stated that there aren't. But that's fairly weak. By that same token it's never expressly stated that the Bajorans or Cardassian have 2 sexes. But we kind of know that there are, tacitly.

If something so integral to Andorians and the propagation of their species existed, you can bet we'd get to see it on screen. It's much more probable that the only artifact of the 4 genders is the Aenar.

And seeing as they're an isolated group with wildly different physical cababilities it wouldn't be all that unreasonable to consider them, when talking about reproduction, a separate pair of genders. After all, two Andorians mating will produce a baby Andorian. 2 Aenar will produce another tiny aenar. But what happens when an Aenar and Andorian fuck? Evidently they can produce viable offspring (Shran's daughter) but the child's physical traits may be wildly divergent.

He's not even arguing the same guy from last time, that one user just has a weird obsession with raging about the definition of 'fan fiction' on a Guatemalan textile discussion board. Because apparently that matters somehow.

>Shran and Aenar-lady seem to have reproduced effectively on their own.

It's mentioned that it's Shran's and Jhemal's kid. Without knowing more about Andorian lineage laws, however, we can't rule out that the kid was conceived and birthed via the 4 sexes but is for lineage purposes considered to just be Shran's and Jhemal's.

Mind, I'm not arguing that this IS the case, only that it's not "irreconcilable."

>We can't even agree on a consistent canon.

No, I think we can agree on a lot of basic facts, it's the gaps in lore and mechanics that we tend to disagree about. And I would argue that trying to work out our own fixes to those problems is about the best thing we do around here.

It matters within the context of the discussion.

I honestly quite like the 4 gender Andorians, it makes them more alien on top of being blue and having antenna. Genuinely odd in a distinctive way.

I don't know how I feel about it being mandatory for reproduction though particularly when they're almost certainly capable of genetic engineering, or even just artificial fertilisation or equivalents could render it a moot point.

> it makes them more alien on top of being blue and having antenna.

Agreed. The Federation would be *easy* if the only real difference between species was face putty and the occasional bit of green blood. The more alien and inhuman the members of the Federation are, while still being members of the Federation and contributing to it wholeheartedly (regardless of the abundance or absence of hearts in their respective anatomies) makes it that much more impressive.

If I were doing a Star Trek TV series and had the budget for it, I would damn well have a Horta as part of the secondary cast, and in the most unexpected role for a Horta possible. Consular, maybe. Or chef. Actually, yeah, definitely chef.

>I don't know how I feel about it being mandatory for reproduction though

I like the 4 genders being mandatory for reproduction. I'm less fond of the idea that they suffered some kind of genetic crisis because of it. One would presume that on Andoria, 4 genders was the norm (as 2 genders is the norm on Earth) for all animal species, and they would have long ago evolved to make up for any kind of deficiencies.

Basically I like the idea in theory; I'm less fond of the execution carried out in the novels. And I especially dislike that the apparent solution to it was to re-engineer them into a 2-gender species.

If I was doing a post-VOY series, I'd probably broadly adapt the genetic crisis into canon that required Andorians to leave the Federation in order to get around its luddite genetic engineering laws, but I'd have the crisis be solved in a way that preserved the 4 genders.

Just call them nadion torpedoes or something.

>If I were doing a Star Trek TV series and had the budget for it, I would damn well have a Horta as part of the secondary cast, and in the most unexpected role for a Horta possible. Consular, maybe. Or chef. Actually, yeah, definitely chef.
One of the Rihannsu novels had a Horta as an engineering Ensign. Or maybe it was Medical. The latter is infinitely more bizarre than chef.

>If I was doing a post-VOY series, I'd probably broadly adapt the genetic crisis into canon that required Andorians to leave the Federation in order to get around its luddite genetic engineering laws, but I'd have the crisis be solved in a way that preserved the 4 genders.

I can get behind that even if it's not a series and instead for the near-mythical (around here anyway) game setting. There's nothing to lose by discounting the novels entirely except to pilfer a few ideas of some value.

What ship class is this? It looks like early art for the Ambassador class.

I'm pretty sure that is an Ambassador class

>Star Trek lore rewritten by 40K writers

what happens?

It is based on a combo of the finished and concept versions of the Ambassador class. I think Catarina class is what the author called it. But fuck me is it ever a nice design.

You get STO.

You get such gems as the battle of the acid lake on Nukara Prime.

Ensign Naraht, yes, though he was in more than just the Rihannsu novels (and he got promoted a few times). He was actually one of my favorite characters in the Rihannsu stories.

>McCoy: "He can consume sediments via the chemicals he secretes from his underside while he moves."
>Naraht: "That he *sometimes* secretes. I'm not such a glutton that I have to eat every time I move."

Eh, it's a bit too close to a Galaxy for my like. The extant Ambassador is, I think, a perfect bridge between the Excelsior and Galaxy.

Carina class, there we go.

...

Everybody is nazis and nobody seems to realise that that's the joke.

>WE JUST DID THIS LAST THREAD, FOR FUCK'S SAKE.
WE WILL DO THIS AGAIN EVERY THREAD. FOR ETERNITY.
FOR THIS IS HELL. THE HELL YOU CHOSE.

The Borg are the good guys. The Federation falls to Slaanesh, the Romulans, and Cardassians to Tzeentch, the Klingons and Kazon to Khorne. The Dominion are basically the Tau. The Imperium of Borg dukes it out with the Voth for the rights to Holy Terra, while sometimes engaging in temporary alliances with the dinobeasties to fight off the Chaos factions.

Thank fuck our setting is just stagnant, I guess.

>yamato
>named after the boat that was one-shotted by ancient iconian artifacts
>pottery
>got popped by literal fucking pottery

U N S T O P P A B L E

Unless you're the Dominion. I'm pretty sure they could take both Empires if the Federation stayed impartial.

Without Starfleet engineering wizardry those Breen energy draining weapons would have been fleet devourers.

It was the Klingons who stopped them first.

Since I don't want to hand out a bunch of (you)s, I'll just put my thoughts in one post, and then kindly fuck off.

I get the rage of the guy who is calling the Trek novels and the Beta canon "fan fiction". It's as much hyperbole as calling that guy illiterate. But he's also not entirely wrong, since the Beta canon is riddled with the kinds of self-insert jackassery that fan fiction is known for.

I'm of the opinion that canon isn't really important (at least for game settings) beyond the initial starting circumstances. I wish Trek as a franchise was consistent with itself, but it isn't, so even stuff that's canon is suspect (Threshold comes to mind).

As for Andorians, Data specifically says: "Andorian marriages require groups of four, unless...." and then he's interrupted. So unless marriage = reproduction, I think that the whole Andorian quadrasexual stuff is on shaky ground. Not that it wouldn't be bizarre and alien enough to be included, it's just that it's a bit of a leap to take a tiny snippet of filler dialogue and extrapolate it to an illogical extreme.

But then, there's the Breen, who were once described as "cold" by Riker, and we see how that's been taken for every bit of mileage.

Do I have a point with this wall of text? Not especially. I think that people who dislike the "other" canons should just learn to disregard it, and the people who like the other canons should just accept that some don't care for it.

At least we can all agree series/movie of your choice is shit, right?

Only on one ship, by accident.

Fuck off, Threshold was pure kino

Just played an Mophidius ST game today. It was fun, I like the system.

Storytime?

How did O'Brien ever get over his prison experience that made him suicidal?

I was actually just thinking the Gamma Quadrant Dominion. Not including Cardassia or the Breen.

The Dominion can certainly outproduce both Empires and they'r more or less will to kamekaze their enemies when neccessary. The only real issue they would face would be supply lines. If they had the patronage of minor Alpha/Beta power, like the Tzenkethi or the Talarians I'd say they could mount an actual invasion in short order.

through the best bromance in only equal to or maybe surpassed my Hawkeye and B.J. from M.A.S.H.

The way their friendship developed over the series was great.

>not including Cardassia or the Breen
>if they had the patronage of minor Alpha/Beta power
what did he mean by this?

I'm talking proper trash-tier empires. You know, the ones that show up as smugglers for the Romulans or the Cardassians. Basically useless in the fight but handy for providing a manufacturing base and staging ground.

The Lissepians. They're basically the bottom of the heap when it comes to the quadrant but they at least have financial backing.

>LICENSED WORK, BY DEFINITION, CANNOT BE FAN FICTION.

Ah yes, the Referential Fallacy. Confusing the LABEL for the THING. Just because the money grubbing assclowns at Paramount slapped a "licensed" label on a piece of shit, that means it is no longer a piece of shit.

Pic most definitely related.

"Fan fiction" is a label. Whether something is fan fiction or not has nothing to do with the quality of said thing. I've read fan fiction with better quality than half of Enterprise's episodes, but that does not mean Enterprise is fan fiction, simply that it is low quality.

Licensed works are notorious for being of lower overall quality. Although in ENT's case, almost anything would be an improvement, and in 40k's case, even in-house stuff varies wildly in quality. And we're not just talking novels from the Black Library, but Codices and other sources.

For my part, the thing that put me off from licensed works was the Star Wars novel Darksaber, and the Star Trek novel where Kirk blows up the Borg.

This is not quality speculative fiction, and while these are examples of the worst in the category of licensed fiction, the "best" isn't likely to hold a candle to original works set in an author's own universe (see Foundation, Dune, Ringworld, etc.).

The primary reason for this, is that there will always be veto from above with licensed works, so a concept can't be fully explored because an author is playing with characters that are not their own. If a novel puts Data in danger, I can be assured he'll survive to the end, be saved at the last minute, or somehow resurrected through Treknobabble fuckery.

So, inevitably, if an author wants to explore something to its fullest extant, they have to make up a new character, get us to care about them, involve them with the existing characters we recognize from the franchise, and follow through on whatever theme, premise, or idea that inspired the story in the first place.

I can't recall a single Trek novel I'd care to read again, and I read a lot of them from between the ages of 10 and 18.

As for whether or not they're "fan fiction"? Not by the strictest interpretation, no. But as a dismissive, even purposely insulting and patronizing label? You decide.

>Just because the money grubbing assclowns at Paramount slapped a "licensed" label on a piece of shit, that means it is no longer a piece of shit.

But it does mean it's not fan fiction.

>But as a dismissive, even purposely insulting and patronizing label? You decide.

NO.

IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT.

Language is how it is used user. And as far as I'm concerned, "licensed" fiction is no better than fan fiction, and both mean "shit" in my vocabulary.

The same way "Brannon Braga" and "Rick Berman" mean "trite garbage".

>>But as a dismissive, even purposely insulting and patronizing label?

Damn right that works. For a non-star trek example I (and many others apparently) happily describe/deride Terminator 3 as a fan-fiction because it reads like a stereotypical one in its very obvious clunky expansion on what came before (Villain Terminator is a combo of the previous two, and a woman! With expanding boobs!) and continual references simply for the sake of making them. There was some definite enthusiasm to it and it clearly wanted to be a Terminator movie, but lacked the innovation and polish of the prior films. Gives it a very fan fiction feel, which by comparison the fourth movie in the series lacked by instead being a very bland, workmanlike story that really was just there for the sake of it, not because anyone cared that much.

>IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT.

As already explained, sperglord, that is how language works and is used.

Now go back to your collection of licensed Dreck novels. I'm sure the Andorian futa chapter is coming up soon.

>and both mean "shit" in my vocabulary.

I see. And what pronouns would you like me to use for you, tumblrite? Because as long as we're going to be changing definitions of words and pulling shit our of our asses we might as well bring the whole "xe/xir" thing in with it while we're at it.

> that is how language works and is used.

No, it's not. Get your definition of "fan fiction" published in an officially-maintained English language dictionary, such as Merriam-Webster, and then you can use it like that. Anything else and you're no better than, as I mentioned above, the retards who insist on being referred to as "xim" rather than "him".

More to the point, I question what you plan on doing if you come across a fan fiction that is actually both good and successful to the point where it actually influences the canon.

Properly speaking Jurassic Park the movie is merely a licensed adaptation of the book and under your shitty definition, where anything not made by the IP holder is fanfiction, "merely" fanfiction. But the movie is considered, if not one of the greatest movies of all time, certainly one of the top 10 best of the 90s, and its influence is immense.

And it was influential enough that when Crichton wrote The Lost World, he killed off characters who had survived the book but died in the movie, like the lawyer Generro and the hunter Muldoon, while he resurrected a character who had explicitly died in the book, Ian Malcolm.

But, hey, the movie was just licensed shit, right?

I'm actually on a roll now.

WICKED! I don't personally care for it. But I defy you to find an adaptation of The Wizard of Oz, or any Oz adaptation made since its publication, that does not go to Wicked for inspiration. For that matter, the Wicked Witch of the West is never said nor implied to be green in the books - that's purely the original movie. Yet if I say "Wicked Witch of the West", you imagine some green bitch, don't you?

NOSFERATU! That wasn't even licensed. It was a wholesale ripoff of Dracula that was taken to court, the creators were found guilty, and every copy of it was ordered destroyed. It's a miracle it survived. It's also pretty much required viewing for any Dracula or vampire fan.

BUT IT'S ONLY SO MUCH FANFICTION TIER SHIT, ISN'T IT?!

I don't reject the idea of calling something shit. That's your opinion. I don't even reject the idea that anything that's fanfiction must be shit. That's your opinion too. It's a shit one, but it's yours.

I object to the use of fanfiction as a synonym for shit while simultaneously using it as a synonym for licensed works, because it runs into immediate problems. With Jurassic Park, with Wicked, with Nosferatu, with probably a hundred thousand other things that I can't be bothered to look up right now.

Whether or not something is fanfiction it's a matter of opinion. It's a matter of objective fact. Either it was officially endorsed by the IP holder, or it wasn't. Nosferatu wasn't. But it wasn't shit. And therefore, your argument is invalid.

...Christ I get confrontational at quarter to 4 AM...

Is it just me, or did Lon Suder have the best character arc in VOY?

>>Caring this much about fan-fic.

It's not enough, I can go deeper. Get your totems ready.

SHADOW OF THE VAMPIRE is an unofficial ("fan fiction") spinoff of Nosferatu made in 2000 that posits that Max Schreck wasn't an actor at all, but a fake identity, and that Count Orlok really was a vampire and the director of Nosferatu, F.W. Murnau, made a deal with Orlok to get him to play in his movie adaptation of Dracula to create the most realistic vampire possible, which Orlok agreed to mostly out of boredom and a desire to have easy feeding for awhile. It was released in 2000 to critical acclaim ("[Willem Dafoe] embodies the Schreck of Nosferatu so uncannily that when real scenes from the silent classic are slipped into the frame, we don't notice a difference." - Roger Ebert)

BUT NO, IT'S FANFICTION TIER GARBAGE BECAUSE SOME CHUCKLEFUCKS ON /STG/ SAY SO.

He not only has the best character arc, he's the best character hands down.

A major reason he's the best character is the fact that he, unlike the rest of Voyager's crew, knows and admits he's fucking insane.

The Star Trek fandom basically created fan fiction in the modern sense, and the amount of beta canon and fanfic is orders of magnitude higher than alpha canon material. This means any internet discussion of a certain length (like, say, a recurring thread on Veeky Forums) will inevitably involve discussing it. For similar reasons, Ranma ½ threads on /a/ usually include fanfic recs... the franchise has had ONE 30 minute OVA since the mid 90s. The fandom is kept alive exclusively by fan works at this point. Imagine if TNG had been canceled after BoBW Part I and we had only had 30 minutes of new alpha canon since then.

Shit, this is Veeky Forums. Any Trek adventure we GM is by definition a fan work. Calm the fuck down.

I care about the English language. This isn't the seventeen-fucking-hundreds. We have high-speed communication and data storage and, supposedly, a literacy rate of better than 95% in the entire Anglosphere. There is no reason for the drastic linguistic shift that in the past has been caused by laziness on the part of speakers and writers.

>Caring this much about fan-fic

Well, seeing as we've devolved into greentexting rather than writing out coherent and reasoned arguments, I'm gonna call this one a victory for the guy supporting the proper use of the English language. Who incidentally is me. So I win.

Good, it's 4 AM and I want to sleep. All hail the conquering hero, who, to reiterate, is me. I expect gifts of whores (preferably Asian and/or Caitian), riches, and pancakes (preferably thick and fuck you if I get fucking crepes) when I awake. Not necessarily in that order.

The Lysians?

Well that's clearly baiting for the sake of baiting. You can just go get fucked, mate.

>as far as I'm concerned

Opinions are literary facts now, I suppose.

It was also nice to see a Betazod that's bat shit insane.

His first episode was fantastic. I really wish we got a bit more development with him.

It's just a shame Kelsey Grammar was too full of himself to appear.

"Computer, one double decaf, non-fat latte, medium foam, dusted with just the faintest whisper of cinnamon."

This is how you derail a thread, boyos.

You take a semantically indefensible stance, make it insulting to a specific group or just a specific poster, and then back-pedal until your argument is made of so many technical equivocations that the entire thing has ceased to have any meaning beyond being obnoxious.

We could be discussing anything. Anything at all. Would the setting be more interesting if the Federation fell? Should the Borg just be left dead? Could any of the alpha quadrant powers realistically stand a chance against Starfleet, post DS9? But instead we're rehashing this stupid fucking argument. An argument about Fan-fic, on Veeky Forums of all places. Veeky Forums makes so much fan fic that we have our own fucking database for it.

Do you guys want /tv/ posters? Because this is how we get /tv/ posters. No? Good, now drop the topic and talk about anything else.