Naval Wargames Thread

Northamptons are stupid sexy. Pepsican looks lanky and unbalanced and NOrleans just plain stubby in comparison. Indy, I dunno.
I really dislike the late war looks on them though, specially Louisville with the huge AA deck on the back.

There's some on Shapeways. The 1/2400 are only available in FUD though, so if price was your reason for not going GHQ, then that's out. I've got USS Houston in 1/1800 in WSF, and even in something other than a detail material, it's a sexy sculpt.

The reason I go with 1:2400 is so I can play them as a table top game, an not a gymnasium game.
I don't mind the lead in the class and most capital ships to be GHQ, there quality is excellent, but there price is mildly high. For the 'cannon fodder' I don't mind if they are of lesser quality.

>cruisers and smaller are cannon fodder

I don't like you.

If I was stuck on a ship on the north Atlantic or arctic sea I'd want rum just to get out of bed in the morning

>British sailor
>WW2
>thinking he'll get a bed

Can you really blame a girl for not taking care of her looks during a world war?

I guess I can't blame Lulu, she needed the flak after all. I can blame BuShips for making increasingly ugly things over time though.

Cruisers are love, cruisers are life.

>CL and smaller are cannon fodder

In the games I have played they don't last long, plus usually there are many in that class on the table at once.

Not all CL's are created equal. Some are way, way tougher than others. I'm looking at Town class in specific.

I am not that familiar with it, are we talking WW1 or WW2?
It seems the British reused the name of that class.

>ship girl is elf
What is happening?

WW2. The ship in that picture is HMS Edinburgh. She took a lot of killing before she went down.

At the same time it'd be so much more SATISFYING to convert it. I just read over the forum thread on GHQ's website about their Micronauts line and someone tried a kitbash that I... honestly didn't like that well. So I'm considering using one of the small reproduction kits at my local hobby shop to cast copies of the GHQ Takao's triple 25mm mounts and twin 127mm AA mounts, then fixing them to the forward superstructure made from plasticard.

Everything is better with elf ears.

Elf = Fairy
Fairy= Spirit
Spirit = Kami
Shipgirl = Kami
Shipgirl = Elf

It all checks out.

I just got done reading the history on that ship, it sounds like they should have tried to just continued towing here rather than sink her.

...

>They lost the only war that ever really mattered
Go figure.

Can you really blame them? It is quite a leap to go from fighting against fellow 2nd & 3rd rate powers like Russia or China to face off against 1st class powers like USA & British Empire.

It's a Dakku thing.

It's entirely possible for a second-rate power to beat the US. The Japs just fucked up qt everything.

USS New Jersey

Those hammocks are actually pretty damn comfy.

Semi-unrelated but what WW2-era ship/s would you most like to see battle it out with Martian Fighting Machines in a Quest focused on naval warfare after a 1939 Martian invasion (think the radio play timeline).

Thunderchild II

...

Dreadnought era would be better DESU. Also, remember to include options for retrofitting martian technology.

Mini Rant Time

The continually incorrect illustrations of HMS Thunder Child as a pre-dread battleship or cruiser PISS ME OFF. No illustrator has bothered to get her right for over a fucking century.

Thunder Child is explicitly described in the text as a torpedo ram and her name is a literary pun on the RN's one and only torpedo ram HMS Polyphemus.

THIS is the ship which fought and destroyed two Tripods. Her smaller draft allowed her to be stationed closer to shore than the rest of the fleet so she was closer to the refugee flotilla when it came under attack.

>It's entirely possible for a second-rate power to beat the US. The Japs just fucked up qt everything.

Educate yourself.

combinedfleet com/economic.htm

It iritates me too actually, though I've heard she may also have been inspired by the Danish Tordenskjold torpedo ram/coastal defence ship, seeing as HMS Polyphemus lacked any large guns while the Thunder Child is described as using them. I'm planning to have her be a Museum ship rushed into service in the days following the invasion, barely functioning and undermanned by a reserve crew at the time of her sacrifice.

I just prefer the WW2-era ships, particularly because of my fondness for twin mounts on DDs and twin or triple mounts on CLs/CAs.

As for retrofitting Martian tech. No, at least not for a long time, generally if anything gets captured intact it'll be going back to the boffins to do classified experiments, not stuck immediately on some ship which likely has no conceivable way of operating or integrating it. Tech advances will be more along the lines of countering Martian technology with what we have on hand, like 'Mist Screens' that pump sea water up into a spray around the ship to reduce the effectiveness of heat rays at long range (masers don't have great efficiency when passing through water) and neutralise black smoke (which is rendered inert on contact with water). Ironically, the martians will be the ones more likely to do retrofits of human tech as they try to fast forward developing naval warfare technology and tactics after having never had to fight at sea before.

mah nigga

youtube.com/watch?v=-reAahY1GCE

>large guns while the Thunder Child is described as using them.

No, Absolutely not.

The Narrator's brother reports: "The Thunder Child fired no gun, but simply drove full speed towards them. It was probably her not firing that enabled her to get so near the enemy as she did."

After ramming and destroying the 1st Tripod, the remaining Tripods discharge Black Smoke at Thunder Child which glanced off while the ship drove clear. As Thunder Child continued her approach, the 2nd Tripod fired it's heat ray. Thunder Child is swathed in steam with flames flickering throgh, but the Tripod is seen to first stagger then fall. It than that Thunder Child's guns are finally mentioned:

"The guns of the Thunder Child sounded through the reek, going off one after the other, and one shot splashed the water high close by the steamer, ricocheted towards the other flying ships to the north, and smashed a smack to matchwood."

It's obvious the fire and heat aboard are causing the guns to "cook off". No one is aiming them, they're not under any control. In fact the refugee ships are in more danger from the guns than the remaining Tripod. HMS Polyphemus carried six 1" Nordenfelts which neatly fit the descriptions in the text.

After the her guns cook off, the Thunder Child then becomes a legend: " For, surging out beyond the white tumult, drove something long and black, the flames streaming from its middle parts, its ventilators and funnels spouting fire.

She was alive still; the steering gear, it seems, was intact and her engines working. She headed straight for a second Martian, and was within a hundred yards of him when the Heat-Ray came to bear. Then with a violent thud, a blinding flash, her decks, her funnels, leaped upward. The Martian staggered with the violence of her explosion, and in another moment the flaming wreckage, still driving forward with the impetus of its pace, had struck him and crumpled him up like a thing of cardboard."

>No, at least not for a long time, generally if anything gets captured intact it'll be going back to the boffins to do classified experiments, not stuck immediately on some ship which likely has no conceivable way of operating or integrating it

Exactly. At the end of the book, Wells writes about experiments with captured Heat -Rays resulting in nothing but death for the experimenters. Experiments with Martian aircraft - like the one they used to destroy the fleet AFTER the Thunder Child battle - are more successful.

Along with the countermeasures you mentioned, Earth will have aircraft when/if the Martians return.

Huh, never thought of it that way, fair enough.

Well, for this the invasion would only start in 1939, so aircraft are already a thing on Earth anyway, and aviation continues to play a role post invasion, though given the nigh instant transmission of heat-rays, pilots have horrendous attrition rates. At the same time Martian aviation is of limited effectiveness due to the development of AA capabilities, and I'm also taking some liberties by splitting the flying machine into two types, one large and slow type, almost like a dirigible, which carries and services the smaller machines but is obviously vulnerable to fire from large calibre AA or even main batteries fired from long range at maximum elevation, and then the bomber-sized flying machines that are more akin to the one described in the novel and that "Report on Martian Technology" that showed up a while back. Supersonic capable for short bursts and with high manoeuvrablility at low speed but fragile as a result of being designed for Mars' thin atmosphere.

>Well, for this the invasion would only start in 1939, so aircraft are already a thing on Earth anyway, and aviation continues to play a role post invasion,

Yes, but does our historical aviation development still occur? Or is the path laid out by Martian aircraft followed instead? The latter is far more likely.

Wells is definitely describing the "Big Fucking Complicated Machine" school of thought which was the most plausible way to achieve HTA flight in the 1890s. He's thinking about the machines Bell, Maxim, Langley, and others were building and he uses such machines in his other works.

The "Fragile Powered Glider" school of thought which the Wrights and later Santos-Dumont used to actually achieve HTA wasn't part of Well's thinking or that of anyone else in the 1890s.

Having your alt-1939 include both Spitfires and huge Martian-derived flying machines is rather implausible. Is there even going to be a WW1 analogue to spur the huge increase in aircraft development that occurred in reality?

You misunderstand, in this setting, there was no 1890s invasion, the Martians delayed, decided against or chose to further prepare etc. for 40 years, maybe to develop antibiotics or at least fully seal their machines.

The first contact mankind has with them is on October 30th, 1939, when a cylinder lands near Gleiwitz, Upper Silesia. The only change to history prior to this point is that the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact fell apart less than a week after being signed over some territorial disputes regarding the splitting of Poland, so the German invasion was delayed a month while another round of negotiations was held. This is the start date for the Orson Welles radio drama version, incidentally.

...

A battleship/armored cruiser makes for more striking image than an accurate weird ramboat.

...

...

...

So everyone knows what were the most overrated boats of WW2 but what about WW1? There is bound to be boats from that era that also are overrated as fuck.

Battlecruisers. Any armored cruiser that was re-rated as a battlecruiser was doubly overrated.

All this Martian alt timely me talk reminds me of the excellent thread (or maybe pair, can't recall) that we had probably about six months ago about an user wanting to run a campaign with his players as crew on a ship in that sort of setting. Lots of good discussion ensued.

If BC's were actually employed as intended, rather than as pocket battleships slugging it out against guns of an equal size to their own, then they were pretty useful. This is coming from someone who used to make fun of BC's all the time and didn't understand the doctrine they were conceived under, just their typical awful use.

Yeah, my Grandad said they were better than any bed he'd ever slept on.

Seems like it'd be a lot harder to get thrown out of a hammock than a bunk in heavy seas. At least if you were rolling, pitching maybe still.

German grosser kreuzers were pretty decent, but then again it is probably because Krauts, outside of grossidiot Tirpitz, didn't fall for the whole speed=armor meme.

...

Rate my formation:
>BB Nagato, CA Maya (AA refit), CL Tenryu, DD Hatsuzuki, DD Yoizuki
>CV Jun'yo, DE Ume, DE Momo, DE Kaede as distant cover

In Rule the waves my early BCs tend to be my most successful ships. Starting as the first dreadnaughts, and getting upgraded several times until the point where they get sunk by lucky torpedo hits during the extended game.

Then again, I make sure to give them armor, and focus on fewer, more intelligently placed turrets. Twin mounts Fore, Aft, and Aft center-line superimposed give a 6 gun broadside and allow the ship to defend itself while running away. The lack of forward firepower is made up by the fact that they can usually run circles around any CL or CA, provided I keep upgrading the engines. If I approach along the diagonal I can use my full broadside against them while still keeping them in range, then I just zig zag across their wake to avoid catching any torpedoes.

Latter on the distinction between BC and Fast Battleship becomes very vague, but I never sacrifice protection for speed.

Why poor ancient Tenryu, and not one of the Aganos?

Three reasons:
>Smaller target with a similar turning circle and top speed to the destroyers she's stuck in with but with a much heavier shell
>Can be used as a WWI era destroyer leader
and perhaps most importantly,
>I got her in a three-pack instead of a latewar Akizuki

They don't make a bad unit, and larger destroyer leaders are kind of orphans anyway in my view.

>>Can be used as a WWI era destroyer leader

Well, she was designed for that role. Whether she can still do it in the 1930s/40s is another question.

To be fair in the role next to Akizukis she's got heavier armor and offsets the low weight of shell. It's probably the only place she's not strictly a burden.

Tenryuu-chan is cute and never a burden!

Ok, she might be a bit slow, but her job is to help DesDivs repel other destroyers and add bulk to torpedo attacks, not fight other cruisers.

I need to model her single heavy AA mount, GHQ just has her with the 25mm mountings.

Let me scan you a profile tomorrow at work.
In the meantime, have Tatsuta in pre-war guise. The 8cm AA is just aft of the Y main mount, pointing upwards, barrel barely visible.

It would look great on the table top, but is it a formation the IJN would have ever deployed?

However, while I tend to favor "historical" over "cool", that doesn't mean anyone else must too.

Probably needs more DDs. IIRC Japanese DesDivs were almost always kept together.

Speaking of historicalness, does anyone have any of the DD-related stuff that's not available here (ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/index.html)?

>Probably needs more DDs. IIRC Japanese DesDivs were almost always kept together.

There's is that. There's also the single BB and single CA too.

Except for very late in the war, when did the IJN ever deploy a single BB? They were always in at least two ship divisions. (Kirishima was alone because Hiei has been sunk the day before.) Ditto CAs.

Before someone quibbles, deployments aren't transits.

How much faster were the RN able to fire by ignoring their safety procedures in WW1?

Not fast enough.

...

Yoizuki wasn't in the war until after Tenryu and Hatsuzuki had both been sunk, and Maya tended to operate with her sisters. But Hatsuzuki and Yoizuki both belonged to DesDiv 61 at different times, and DesDiv 61 was one of the few formations left with any degree of presence at the end of the war alongside Nagato as the IJN's last capital ship. Yoizuki is also among a very short list of destroyers who ever wore camouflage, making her visually interesting. She'd have to just stand in for any other Akizuki in a strict reenactment.

It's more meant to be a counter for similarly small task forces of British and German ships in the North Sea and Atlantic, made up of interesting and distinctive ships.

They operated them as sisters, which is why larger scenarios would feature Nagato and Mutsu with heavier screening. But Nagato in particular sailed with whoever was available at the time after Mutsu blew up.

>It's more meant to be a counter for similarly small task forces of British and German ships

So it's a point value thing? You needn't worry about historical accuracy at all then. Just paint 'em up, place 'em down, and have fun!

...

North Carolina is definitely worth a visit if one finds themselves near Wilmington.

If anyone does get a chance to visit, there's a nice exhibit on the I-9 torpedo hit.

I must admit though, bringing IJN hurts sometimes. What I wouldn't give to have a light carrier loaded with Hellcats instead of Zeros.

>I must admit though, bringing IJN hurts sometimes

That's the downside of point value battles. If you fought within historical periods instead of vague point totals, sometimes those Zeros would be just the ticket.

Anyway, you're still playing!

Playing as the side that spent 90% of the war by getting their asses kicked to hell and back has its downsides.

For about 36 months (fewer if you factor in Midway), the Zero was the top bully on the playground. I'd argue it would still serve well against the RN and any European air power even after that.

To be fair, even in peacetime Naval building was something like a third of the Japanese GDP. Combined with attacks on their supply lines and the cost of consolidating and maintaining their own territorial gains, replacing lost ships and aircrews was an impossible task. Basically the first major loss they suffered would have been the beginning of the end for them.

And THEN they made tactical blunders and adhered slavishly to questionable strategies on top of that.

It is rather sad really
>basically always border on going bankrupt due to your naval programs
>still get your ass kicked even when your opponents are busy fighting a war against another nation on a wholly different hemisphere from you and only dedicate the bare minimum resources against you

I posted a Java Sea battle report for Naval War. It's a good system, and it's definitely worth checking out.

naval-war.com/navalforum/battlereports/59-java-sea-night-clash

It's worse than that. Try and imagine the situation:
>Sink an American battleship: they raise it, repair it, and sink one of yours in exchange
>Sink an American carrier: they sink two of yours and build two more of their own
>Blow the bow off a cruiser: they fix it and send it back with two more cruisers just like it
>Build ten more destroyers: the Americans sink them all and float twenty new Fletchers
>Tell your soldiers to fight to the last man: they do so, and you lose the island anyway
>Strap your pilots in and tell them to ram into American ships: the Americans still keep coming
>Sacrifice all your carriers to bait the American fleet: they take the bait and come back for your main fleet
>Your fleet runs out of fuel: the Americans use them as target practice
>Conscript school children and other civilians: the Americans still outnumber you more than ten to one
>Prepare to expend your entire population in defense of the home islands: the Americans start blowing up and burning down cities without setting a foot on the soil
>And you can't effectively bomb them back

The entire Pacific Theater was an exercise in buying time for something that was never going to happen.

Yeah but taking on three tripods in a ram is ballsier than taking on three tripods in a pre-dread.

...

Well, these turned out worse than I expected, but it's still clear enough I think.

And 2nd.

Thanks, those will be really useful.

I'm glad.
Make sure to post your Tenryuu when you're done.

Where do you work where you can get scans of that sort of thing?

Jesus christ you weebs disgust me

>putting zero effort into your shitposting
Bitch you are RUINING this for me.

The scans are from a book I bought over the internet called Warships of the Imperial Japanese Navy, vol 13, which includes Tenryu, Kuma and Yubari classes.
I scanned it at work cause I have better shit to buy than a scanner, that's all.

You'll only stay mad if you think about it!

Divisions were indeed often kept together as a matter of course, though composition frequently changed and units were shifted around with various losses and replacements: each of which possessed at least slightly different capabilities. Ad hoc formations were increasingly common later in the war as some Divisions flat out ran out of suitable ships.

Thanks for the AAR. I'm painting up NavWar minis because all the Anons like you who kindly shared their experiences with the game!

Bingo. That's why I rant whenever Thunder Child is re-skiined as a pre-dread. At ~2500 tons, she was basically a period light cruiser or protected torpedo boat and still had the balls to take on three Tripods.

Thanks for those. Looks like I'll be adding another book to my already lengthy wish list.

>It's worse than that. Try and imagine the situation

It was even worse than that and we needn't imagine either. Paul Kennedy ran the numbers in his "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers". First, the numbers. While STILL in an economic doldrums, the US in 1941 had:

>Nearly twice the population of Japan.
>Seventeen time's Japan's national income.
>Five times more steel production.
>Seven times more coal production.
>Eighty (80) times the automobile production.

Then there are these other factors:

>US economy capacity utilization is lowest among the fighting powers.
>In 1939 US had 10 million either unemployed of under employed.
>US factories in 1941 more modern & automated
>US per capita productivity the highest
>US can and did employ women

In 1941 the US had a huge amount of slack, or unused capacity, already existing in it's the economy. A capacity that could be "turned on" simply by hiring workers. Japan, OTOH, had been spending ~30% of her GNI on arms for decades and her economy was already working at full capacity.

Kennedy estimates that in 1937 the US had 41.7% of the world's war making potential and Japan had 3.5%. Absent a miracle like a meteor strike or Yellowstone erupting, Japan never had a chance.

Yet a miracle was just what Japan was planning on.