Song of Swords: We Fixed the OP Edition

paste2.org/JswEVkk2

Hasn't been changed at all.

In SoS? Yes it is. Bows are very weak against armor. To make that work you need to either be a Zell, have very high MP, or use flaming arrows to cheese out the instant win.

imgur.com/a/gydm3
German Longsword Jobber and Repanse Waad

5 shots at -4 MP outperforms 1 shot at full MP at a fairly low breakpoint of MP and I'd be happy to do the math for you to show you how bad at math you are if you think Rapid Shot isn't fine in SoS

Go for it, and compare it to Power Draw as well, since there's little reason not to Power Draw if your target is armored.

Rolled 4, 36, 41, 62, 54, 56 = 253 (6d100)

Alright looks like we have 5 entries into the tourney, so I'll toss in a lad of my own to even it out. For fighters we have;

#1 Zaidu, Huntsman of the Moon! paste2.org/JswEVkk2
#2 Versck the Fat, Goblin Leader! paste2.org/dF17N7Cd
#3 Repanse Waad, Armored Knight! i.imgur.com/sg08wTL.png
#4 German Longsword Jobber, the One and Only! i.imgur.com/ndg9Y12.png
#5 Swinger, Beater of Blades! paste2.org/wdaMXN3e
#6 Vito Acosta, Veteran Footsman! paste2.org/hjXbcCNk

I'll roll some dice to figure our matchups.

So, for our first round of fights we have;
Zaidu vs Verseck the Fat
Repanse Waad vs Swinger
German Longsword Jobber vs Vito Acosta

That'll leave us three fighters next round, so we may do the same as we did for finals as last time, which the three fighters all squaring off in turn. Whoever has a character in the running, hop in the 20!

The maximum MP you can get at chargen is 11 at 26(13 at 30 big whoop). If you fire all 5 then your expected value is 2.8 well below the 4 needed to hit. Doing head math I come up with a 25% to get 4.5 or better so if you do that only one of your shots will hit on average. Further more you need 5 success in ballad to not be capped at level 1 wounds though that hardly matter since bows do 9 damage(Wheelbow Heavybroad) or under. 3 shots at 9 MP though does sound way better than 1 at 11 though

Our first fight is starting!
Vito Acosta is facing the venerable German Longsword Jobber! Can the pseudo-rodelero defeat the tried and tested Jobber fechtan? We'll find out!

And the fechting is off to a miserable start, with no less than three rolls getting no successes in the first action alone!

Jobber has been stabbed in the neck for a level 3 wound! Can he struggle through it and win? Only the next round will tell!

>Further more you need 5 success in ballad to not be capped at level 1 wounds though that hardly matter since bows do 9 damage(Wheelbow Heavybroad) or under.
Do you mean bow damage is so low that the wound cap almost isn't necessary? Whether many shots is better or worse than fewer or single shots with more MP relies heavily on how much damage you need to deal.

Using SmallRoller gives the following results
11 MP - 4 = 7 MP
Your head math was pretty close. Five shots: At TN 7, 7 MP each gets 4+ successes 28.98% of the time, and 5+ successes (uncapped wounds) 9.63% of the time.
The chance they'll all miss (3 or fewer successes) is (1 - 0.2898)^5 = ~18.06%, so you've got about a 82% of hitting with at least one.
The chance they'll all get capped (4 or fewer successes) is (1-0.0963)^5 = ~60.27%, so you've got about a 40% of getting a good hit with at least one.

Three shots: At TN 7, 9 MP each gets 4+ 51.74% of the time, and 5+ 26.66%.
They all miss ~11.24% of the time, which is about 1 in 8
They all get capped ~39.45% of the time.

One shot at TN 7, 11 MP gets 4+ 70.37% of the time, and 5+ 46.72%.
It misses about 30% of the time, and is uncapped about 54%.

And the German Longsword Jobber falls, as is his destiny, with a second level 4 wound to the face. Like every generation of the Jobber family before him, he faces his inevitable fate with grace.

The fight is over!
>Victor: Vito Acosta
>Method of Victory: A level 3 to the neck followed by a Level 4 to the face.

Cage visors, better than nothing does not equal all that good! Our next fight shall be Zaidu vs Verseck, as Waad's player must go AFK for a bit.

The next fight is beginning shortly! Our fighters are the corpulent Verseck, and the Karthacki Zaidu! Can the moon's light defeat the jiggly rolls and flails of the goblin menace?

Quote from the thread:

a fecht for the ages
silversteel-coated murderaxer vs literally a goblin

>thread

rooms and threads are basically the same thing

With a successful flail swing, Verseck moves into H range, a whole 3 range steps! Things are getting romantic!

Another swing cancels Zaidu's knee from shock, but a Rodela spares the Karthack from a caved-in chest! We move into the next Round unsure of the likely winner.

Hey, I didn't build him just to Murderhobo in the tournament, I've had this character concept for a while now
archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/48171874/#48215427

A flail beat is shield-bound! Can Zaidu ward off his short attacker, or even win the fight?

An exchange of blows leads to a level 2 bludgeoning to the Zaidu's thigh! Not much effect however, and the fecht continues!

youtube.com/watch?v=0U2zJOryHKQ

Progress! The gobbo has succeeded in a defensive clinch, putting us in a grapple!

After a few actions of grappling and a minor level 1 wound to the elbow, the goblin breaks Zaidu's elbow with a level 4 wound by god!

After a grueling 6 round fecht, we have a victor!
>Victor: Verseck the Fat
>Method of Victory: A defensive clinch leading to a broken arm.

We will be picking up the tourney tomorrow, due to the need for sleep and my own migraine.

How do defensive clinches resolve when declared against an attack?
Do they even negate enemy successes?

Of course they do. They're a defense. It's only weird because it's resolved at HA range so you need to pay for range.

warosu.org/tg/thread/S43478595#p43536241
Remember this, lads?

>Servant's Uniform & Stuff (wt 12.5)

It's a lot of good stuff.
Don't we know it.

tattered-realms.wikia.com/wiki/Hladnavrata

Glad to know that finding the 3rd quartile worked out for me

Is this the same person? I'm still waiting on how Rapid Shot is fine in SoS. Not with CotV's 4 RS rule, but in SoS.

You'll have to wait. I was saying it sucked in Ballad rules

You do realize SoS uses the 4 RS rule too, unless you're some kinda weirdo who doesn't use the latex version with the updated Combat chapter, right?

>On average, only one of your shots will hit with Rapid Shot
>If you shoot only one, one of your shots will hit (albeit with fewer successes, on average, than the one of the 5 that'd hit with Rapid Shot)
>Therefore, it's better to shoot only one, because on average, each shot from Rapid Shot will miss
what

You do realize Rapid Shot isn't in the updated Combat chapter, right? It's a defunct maneuver with the new combat rules. We're talking about Rapid Shot before the new combat rules.

You do realize it totally is, right? Look under the Missile Attack section in Combat, it's right under Shoot

You do realize it's not the same as the maneuver, right?

You do realize that's completely irrelevant considering that, as you just mentioned, it's a defunct maneuver and doesn't matter at all, right?

This discussion sprang from that new GM wanting to use Ballad rules but in SoS, and couldn't figure out bows.

Some dude said to treat them as single shot. I said that Bows can Rapid Shot in the updated combat chapter, and it'd be a nerf if you didn't allow them to at least do what they usually did.

The reply was that Rapid Shot was terrible in SoS, as a reply to using the Rapid Shot rules in updated SoS. This prompted an incredulous reply.

If at any point anyone's been talking about Rapid Shot from pre-update SoS, they need to follow the conversation better.

It's the same as Superior Rapid Shoot, so, it's basically the same thing

So what are we even arguing about with Rapid Shoot?

If it's a nerf to not allow them to Rapid Shot, but only let them single shot, ever, because single shot is always better than Rapid Shot, because Rapid Shot is terrible

Saying Rapid Shot is terrible belies some pretty bad math abilities

Well did ever explain that math behind it?

>If you shoot only one, one of your shots will hit (albeit with fewer successes, on average, than the one of the 5 that'd hit with Rapid Shot)
That should say more successes, not fewer

What's the point when makes it abundantly clear?

The odds of getting 5+ dice is ~46.72% for 11 dice, ~40% for 7 dice with 5 arrows, which I can corroborate with my own math.

This shows fairly clearly that even without Aim, without Zell bonuses, without stacking arrows doing lodes a damage, without any flanking, and without autistic savant-levels of proficiency, Rapid Shot is still fairly good even if you go about it in a stupid way.

If you aim thrice, Rapid Shot then becomes retarded strong since the gap between the two is a constant 1.6 successes on average, and the extra successes matter way, WAY less once you get above the 4 successes on average at 10 dice, since stacking bonuses become a fairly hefty damage factor.

Rapid Shot is not always better than Shoot (it's worse in this worst-case scenario, at ~11 MP without aiming, for example), but it's definitely not terrible.

The statement that it outperforms 1 shot at full MP at a low breakpoint, though, is not true insofar we use this worst-case scenario, though, since 11 MP is fairly high without aiming.

>rapid shooting arrows dipped in your shit.

5+ successes, rather

Typo, my bad

Sheet for Versck with far better formatting than the last, which was horribly shitty: paste2.org/vnBbgM9G

I assumed it does this because it's made out of Silversteel.

Makes me wonder what it would do to a proud and noble knight if he ever commissioned a suit of plate made out of the stuff.

Jimmy, if you still come here are there any soulless knights wandering the land is a suit of gleaming silver?

I'm not sure what you mean by stacking bonus damage for arrow fire. Yes, getting multiple shots on one location in Ballad does more damage, but that doesn't appear to be the case in the updated SoS. It'd be rather difficult to achieve too since there are so many more locations in SoS than Ballad.

>that pommel misaligned with the blade and quillons

That better be because he's unscrewed in in preparation to end his foe rightly.

His sword is too long for his scabbard

It's also not wide enough to fill the scabbard properly.

The problem with it is still that bows do around 7/8 damage at 1bs(uncapped wounds). There are few combat characters that can't soak that and the example also isn't really the worst case scenario. the worst case scenario is that they are behind cover or moving.
But yeah if you get all three aims off why not throw some extra arrows in there god knows you can afford it

Looks to long to draw from a side scabbard comfortably. Sword is at least 4'8 if that's a short dude

SHILL AS HARD AS YOU CAN, SEARCH GOOGLE FOR YOUR NATIVE RPG FORUMS!

>This shows fairly clearly that even without Aim, without Zell bonuses, without stacking arrows doing lodes a damage, without any flanking, and without autistic savant-levels of proficiency, Rapid Shot is still fairly good even if you go about it in a stupid way.
Here's the problem. What is "good"? That was never defined. When you shoot a guy you want him to stop being a threat; we don't really know how Pain and Bleed work with the new Ballad style rules; you can't narrow down where your shot will land on the target; most (piercing) wounds have all their fun stuff happen at level 3. Some wounds have really debilitating level 3s (neck, belly, elbow), some have really lackluster level 3s (shoulder, chest). Level 4s and 5s often neutralize the target.
Let's say good is inflicting a level 3 or better wound. If we can inflict a level 3 through armor we can certainly inflict a level 5 without problem, so hitting an unarmored spot is pure upside.

When you account for RS adjusted for movement or active defense, possible shield coverage, RS/MP changes from poor lighting, weather problems, the situation looks a lot worse than what I'll show below. [All bows are MTN 7. MP will mean the number of dice you actually roll, after modifiers like range and Aim. All percentages are rounded to 2 decimal places and gotten from SmallRoller and my own calculator.]

It's worth noting that Aim gives you a bonus to your next "Missile Attack", and Rapid Shot is one type of "Missile Attack", so even though it consists of multiple lowercase missile attacks, it probably gets the bonus for all shots, because the Rapid Shot is itself one Missile Attack. If this isn't intended Jimmy you gotta fix it.

Let's look at a Warbow or Composite Warbow (which I guess is a bow in the ~120 lbs draw weight range?) with something different, like Swallowtail arrows. They have Winged 1, so they ignore Textile and each BS counts twice against soft armors, like Draw 1 used to be. Your damage is 6+BS, or 6+(2*BS) against soft armors. Your damage per BS is going 6, 8, 10, 12, 14...
Going against TOU 4 with AV 2/3/4 leather/quilt, and needing at least 1 BS to be uncapped, means on 1 BS you're good against unarmored spots, level 2s and 1s to AV 2 leather and 3 leather/quilt, and matching AV 4 leather/heavy quilt. With 2 BS you're good against AV 3, and 3 BS is good against all of the soft armors. But 3 BS is 7 successes on a roll, and that's not easy to achieve.
|7+ successes on MP|
0.16% on 7 MP
2.50% on 9 MP
9.94% on 11 MP
22.88% on 13 MP
39.02% on 15 MP
Against plate, just forget it. You're at 6+BS against AV 11. To be good you'd need 8 BS -- 12 successes. That's a 5.65% on 20 dice. You've got other arrowheads for that.

So in this scenario, when is Rapid Shoot better than single shots? Certainly if your chances of inflicting a good wound at all go up, Rapid Shoot is better. Say we have 15 MP. We have the options of 1x15, 2x14, 3x13, 4x12, and 5x11. Let's say the target's total defense is 8, for heavy quilt. That's also the same as TOU 5 with regular AVP 3 quilt, or TOU 6 with AV 2 leather. Remember Textile doesn't apply because Swallowtail arrows have Winged.
|Chances of at least one level 3+ wound against 8 defense|
1x15: 39.02%
2x14: 52.05%
3x13: 54.14%
4x12: 49.79%
5x11: 40.74%
In this scenario it's better to do three 13 MP shots than two 14 MP shots or one 15 MP shot.
If you instead defined "good" as level 4 or 5 wounds only:
1x15: 21.31%
2x14: 27.77%
3x13: 26.53%
4x12: 21.03%
5x11: 13.81%

The wheelbow is the strongest example. With heavy broadheads, like user said before, it's 9+BS damage. With 4 successes you have 0 BS, so 9 damage capped at a level 1. With 5 successes you have 1 BS, so 10 damage uncapped.

Against TOU 4, 1 BS would be a level 5. Against TOU 4 with AV 2/3/4 leather/quilt, it's a level 4/3/2. Against TOU 4 with quilt without Winged, it's 10 or 12 defense, so no wound. You'd need 2 BS -- 6 successes on your roll -- to deal a minimum level wound (in this case level 2, because of Winged) through basic quilt. This is why you probably always want to Winged arrows in a world where quilted armor is common. Your basic Broadhead arrowhead is usually the best choice.

In this scenario we have 9+BS with a Heavy Broadhead Zellish Wheelbow. Let's try a tough target, TOU 4 in AVP 7 plate. That's 11 defense, the same as TOU 6 in AVP 5 lamellar. Bonus damage from Winged won't apply. Let's find where Rapid Shot is better than Shoot.
To be good we need 5 BS -- 9 successes. Again we'll assume 15 MP.
|Chances of at least one level 3+ wound against 11 defense|
1x15: 9.5%
2x14: 11.32%
3x13: 9.32%
4x12: 5.97%
5x11: 2.93%
Again a Rapid Shoot is better than a single shot, although this time only the 2x14 is better. That's with the strongest possible bow and ammo combination for raw damage.

So just experimentally, given all these conditions, it appears that Rapid Shoot is often a better decision than normal shoot.

OK Claymore

And by the way, 15 MP wasn't chosen for any particular reason, but it is achievable by a moderately skilled archer.
6 proficiency + 6 Aim + 4 PER = 16
You'll always have 3 phases to Aim because you can Steal Initiative up to 7 ADR and simply Aim in all 3 phases, then shoot during your turn next round, when the stealing initiative penalty goes away.

It's not a property of Silversteel, but that of enchantment in general I believe. See Gizja's sword

If I start with 1 PCP amount of B&B points of -15, can I take 30 points of banes to have 15 points to spend on boons?

Ok. I've tried merging Song of Swords and Ballad. I included everything except for a few skills and boons/banes, and kept out Ballad equipment. Firearms I"ll stat out in a separate document.

Does the combat chapter look good? Like it's a coherent ruleset anyone would understand?

Bows/Thrown weapons I'm still not 100% on.

That's how it works, yes. You take -15 for your PCP 1, and you can take up to -15 more to get the max Bane to Boon

No, every magic weapon in Vosca comes with a price.

I've needed this for a while. Giving it a look over now.

Remove the SoS missile hit location table. It's no longer needed with the Ballad hit location.

The projection cone on the kickstarter is looking pretty narrow. Now it's looking like we might not hit even one more stretch goal.

shill harder

Honestly it sounds like they were just making stuff up to fill the slots at the end, I don't think they really expected to get this far.

Anything else?

...His pommel is diagonal to his blade and cross guard.

I haven't had a chance to really dig in, but is there a way to make tables a bit easier to parse?

Which tables? I used a combination of the LaTeX SoS and two column Ballad books.

Like.

All of them. Having just blank space is pretty weird.

Huh. Haunted polearms.

Hopefully he just plans to quickly end his enemy rightly.

>However, there is a darker side to the material. None are quite sure what it is, but many describe a feeling of loss associated with Silversteel. As though, after touching it, something beautiful and precious has been taken away forever, and can never be reclaimed. Even the memory of what has been lost is sealed away. Most people think this is just nostalgia and superstition, and yet...

That is actually weird. We know that magic weapons usually have downsides, but Hladnavrata's seems specifically connected to silversteel.

We know that Orichalcum draws on "life" per-se to achieve its effect. It is only invulnerable when touching living matter. We cannot know, but is it possible that it DRAINS life from whatever touches it, in some small and unnoticable way?

What if Silversteel is the same, but instead of the life of the physical body, it somehow draws on the mind, memories, or the soul?

You have a lot of redundancies. Ballad missile hit locations and SoS hit locations, when only Ballad should be in. Observation AND Awareness. Athletics and Climbing when Ballad makes Climbing part of Athletics.

>James: It is a natural impulse of people, if they have sort of a pathos, or a historical impulse they feel the need to address because of something in their cultural, or racial, or national past… You know, they just want to work something out in that way, as you said. There’s nothing wrong with that. But it’s a little bit weird when you see [that built into] tabletop games in particular, because it’s such a group-centered milieu. Everything really relies on your GM and on your players. Not so much of it is supposed to come from the makers of the game. It’s very weird to see the trend of politically or socially conscious tabletop games [that’s] going around. Players don’t like that stuff. If you go on the internet… I won’t name any names, but there are a lot of games out there that are trying their bestest to make a political or social message. Everyone hates it, because it just feels so preachy and kind of whingey, you know? Someone always gets annoyed by it. So what’s the point?

MEANWHILE, IN BALLADVERSE

"A magic sword wielded by a mysterious Din of unknown race called Luu"

From here: tattered-realms.wikia.com/wiki/Ebakibel

Any more lore on Luu?

So in previous threads I've seen someone talking about getting a prepaid card to back SoS with on kickstarter. Is it a bad plan to use your regular card? I'd like to support this madness, but I'd also like to not have my bank account drained by leet Korean Haxxors.

That was because the person didn't have the right kind of bank card or something because of his country. KS is liable for hacking and stuff like that (not for fraud though, lol) so don't worry about getting screwed for using your own info.
t. IT dipshit who spends way too much money on kickstarters

Illiad of Idols when?

Thanks. Time to give Jimmy my shekels so he can resume his drunken storytimes.

Ballad is less message-laden political allegory and more Jimmy seeing how ridiculous of a political satire he can make before someone stops him.

That's not really true. All the societies are about the same level of ridiculous, even for cases like the nazi analogues which actually had to be scaled back to match the others.