Bayonetta: The RPG

Welp. We're doing this.

Let's make everyone's favorite high flying, demon summoning, hair wearing, gun footing, nonstop infinite climaxing character action game into an RPG. Because let's be honest, who doesn't want to play a game where you have fights with angels on top of a fighter jet.

As far as I see it, the first big things to figure out are exactly what kind of dice system we'll be using, and a good way to keep the stylish combat aspect in. I was thinking maybe taking some of Wushu RPG's system or rewarding players for more complicated and over the top actions and adding it to a more crunch-heavy system. Maybe something like adding extra dice or fate points in relation to the style/combo of the player?

Either way, let's brainstorm up some over the top goodness.

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Well I suppose witch time can be represented as more actions per turn.

Wushu definitely sounds a good start, in terms of rules.

That's not a bad thought. The question is how do we represent the witch time dodge?

Maybe we could structure dice as an action pool, having a certain number of dice to spend per turn on attacks, dodges, etcetera. If you want to do a dodge, you have to save your dice for it, otherwise you can't do one. However, if you're certain in your safety you can spend all your dice on straight combat or other such things.

How does that sound?

I think it sounds alright.

There are two ways to go with this-

A light system, without much combat depth but fast to resolve, focusing on flashy descriptions.

A mechanically competent system, accepting a slightly lower pace for the benefits of the ability to make meaningful mechanical choices and make the combat mechanics themselves more enjoyable.

Which you prefer is entirely up to taste.

I asked this in the last thread, because it's always confused me- Is there a version of Wushu with more to it than 'Describe for extra dice, roll off to see what happens'? I've seen people describe Wushu as having a good combat system, but I've never been able to find a version which has any meaningful mechanical choices to speak of. It looks like a fun, simple rules light game, but I'd really love to see a version of it which actually had some decent combat structure on top of that.

When adapting something, never start with specific mechanics. Never, never, never start with specific mechanics.

Look at the big picture. The theme, the style, the tone you want to achieve, how you want the mechanics to feel and what you want them to convey. That is where you start designing, because from there you can have the basis to actually build a consistent and enjoyable game.

Trying to create mechanics to represent specific mechanics from a videogame and then tying them all together almost invariably ends up with a convoluted mess that fails to capture anything of the original, as trying to directly translate mechanics like that completely misses the extreme differences between mediums.

Adaptation always necessitates a degree of interpretation, making things work in the new medium rather than rigidly trying to replicate how they were in the old, to ensure a better experience overall.

inb4 GURPS

Alright then, big style, big action.

So the first, and most important part of any Bayonetta game has got to be the Umbran Witches and Lumen Sages. For our player characters, we're inevitably going to have either these, or terrified normal people ala Luka/whatever the fuck Loki was.

How would we treat contracts with major demons like Madama Butterfly?
I like the idea of playable Lumen Sages having a similar, mirrored contract, so we could make some major angels to contact with?

On the other hand, I really like the idea of us trying to make a more mechanically inclined Wushu-style game, so let's keep that in mind.

The way I see it, what demon/angel you contract should be an important or semi-important, part of character creation.
At the very least, it should determine what your character's Wicked Weaves are like.

And I do like the idea of "champion" angels that are equivalent to big demons instead of just the four generals. It only makes since that the angels would have paragons of their own, with backgrounds just as varied as the likes of Hydra and Scolipendra.

For Umbran/Lumen characters, definitely a huge part of character creation.

For non-witch/sages, what should we have to keep them balanced/relatively competitive in comparison? I was thinking maybe having an option for them being some kind of power-ties to Aesir and Chaos in general. A kind of pseudo-contract with the god of the human realm.
Alternatively, we could maybe tie their progression to Purgatorio, but that would also require making stuff up to fit in it.

Maybe just give them "comments sense powers"?
Enzo didn't live through 2 Bayonetta games by a crazy badass; he got through them by being smart and not doing anything particularly stupid. They're limited to more normal kinds of crazy, but they excel in that kind of crazy.

Legends of the Wulin would be my suggestion for a good high action combat system on the crunchier side, by the by. It's an odd one, but works damn well in practice.

I like that a lot. Non-magic-bullshit humans don't get fancy powers, but get crazy bonuses towards their specific skills. Luca gets to fly around on ziplines like it's Just Cause, Enzo gets to bippity-boopity his way through everything (a ludicrously high combination of perception and dodge skills) and so on.

I don't know much about Legends of Wulin. Would you mind explaining how it's general system works? Is it d10, d20?

>lets give players shitloads of actions
>this can not possibly go wrong and ttrpgs with lots of multiple actions and bonus attacks aren't horribly broken piles of shit

This is bayonetta.

EVERYONE is a broken pile of shit.

That's part of the fun.

Legends of the Wulin was originally build for Wuxia games, but the mechanics work well for basically anything build around high action combat.

The system uses fixed d10 dicepools, initially seven dice, where you look for sets on a roll- A set being any number of dice showing the same face value. Any set has a value of ten per dice in the set, plus the face value- Two sevens is 27, Four threes is 43, etc.

The interesting thing about this? On a single roll, you're quite likely to get multiple sets, and every set you roll can be used to make an action, plus certain actions it's possible to make on single dice.

This creates a lot of interesting decisionmaking in combat, where each dicepool gives you a different set of factors to consider before deciding which dice to assign where and what to do with them.

The system uses an abstract system for damage in combat, Ripples. Ordinary attacks only inflict Ripples, which do nothing by themselves but are triggered by Rippling Rolls, where all the ripples the target has suffered are rolled as a pool to inflict damage in the form of Chi Conditions. I thought this fit the Bayonetta/DMC model quite well, with ordinary attacks to push the boss/enemy towards a vulnerable state, then rippling rolls representing the various cutscene attacks that do real damage.

Chi Conditions are the final piece of the puzzle, and are simple but very widely used. A Chi Condition is a narrative clause paired with a mechanical benefit or penalty. Obey the clause, get the benefit or avoid the penalty.

Beneficial conditions enhance your character in various ways (you can literally have conditions that give you a mechanical bonus for being stylish and flashy as fuck, for example), while harmful conditions like injuries can be used to limit your opponents actions, forcing them to choose between suffering the mechanical penalty and obeying the fluff restrictions you've placed on them.

>every demon/angel's wicked weaves not only act as attacks, but are unique
>when you contract with a demon you can use that demons set of wicked weaves for free
>you can use the wicked weaves of other demons as well, just like how bayonetta wasn't limited to madama butterfly, but there's a price

LotW is also for one-on-one duels and absolute dogshit for anything else.

And this is why we need to do the time honored RPG design tradition, and shamelessly steal the best bits of it for ourselves, and then modify the rest.

I really like the idea of conditions, and perhaps something along the lines of ripples, but we need to tool it for a game that is primarily fighting huge piles of fodder enemies.

Eh, I think the system excels in one on one duels but group combats can work fine in the system. Many on one encounters with a single super powerful opponent also work great.

Alright, so in terms of angels/archangels for a Baldur Sage to contract with, do we make them up entirely or base them on existing angels?

Also what if we had the main contract with the demons/angels have an actual contract clause with it? Your contractee has a requirement to you doing things, with demons having less stringent contracts but the "the second you die hell comes to eat you" clause attached. Angels could require their sages to champion their personal virtues or hunt demons, or all sorts of things that could add to character and gameplay.

>do we make them up entirely or base them on existing angels?
If I had to choose, I would say the former, although we could do both.
And I like the idea about the differences between angel contracts and demon contracts; it's nice and thematic and it proves a nice way to differentiate hedonists like bayonetta from what are essentially priests with swords.

Alright, so let's say for the sake of character creation, everyone starts at equal footing, and then we add on the Lumen/Umbra/Terrified Normal Dude attributes.

Everyone rolls/point buys/whatevers up their base stats, and then adds on the contract/wicked weave powers for the sages, or a crazy boost to a chosen skill/skillset for humans. What then?

Maybe there's a "spell list" everyone chooses from, with different lists depending on what "class" you are?
Plus, there should probably be a part where you decide what weapons you wield and start customizing them, like how Bayonetta has 4 special guns that are her guns, or how the Masked Lumen has that holy darth maul sword spear.

Maybe have a recurring NPC character filling the role of Rodin in the games? Bring your demon souls to get rad weapons and/or upgrades for your kit?
Definitely though, weapon design is a big part of character creation. We should probably split it into different base types of weapon, and then add on modifiers and extra bits to make them your own specific pieces of kit.

In terms of a spell list, I think that would be superseded by the Wicked Weave/Lumen Wicked Weave equivalent for our witch/sages and we could probably fluff the magic of regular people as a particularly conditional weapon?

Why not have there be a list of weapon suppliers that give different benefits and are allied to different factions?
Rodin is allied to Umbra Witches and gives out demonic weapons, so there could be a supplier that is allied to umbrans and gives out angelic weapons, a supplier allied to lumens that gives demonic weapons, etc.

Isn't that the misogynist video game ?

Ooh, I really like that. Naturally, they all have to be named after famous sculptors/artists like Rodin.

So if we split them up we have
Umbran Demonic: Rodin
Umbran Angelic:

Lumen Demonic: As a joke to Rodin, his contemporary should be Dalou en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Dalou
Lumen Angelic:

Unaffiliated Demonic:
Unaffiliated Angelic:

Mundane: I think maybe have some neutral member responsible for high quality non-magical shit, like if you want to kit yourself out with rocket launchers or assault rifles. Maybe Da Vinci?

Maybe name Lumen Angelic or Umbran Angelic after Bosch, who created the Garden of Earthly Delights?

Bosch sounds like a good Umbran Angelic, considering all his paintings of hell.
So now we have a pattern of Sculptors for Demons and Painters for Angels. Actually fits considering how demons in Bayonetta are all metallic and robotic.

So in that case, how about Caravaggio for the Lumen Angelic? Mastery of the Chiaroscuro (light-dark) technique sounds like it might fit.

Caravaggio sounds pretty nice.
Unaffiliated Angelic could be named after Goya; a lot of his work was very mundane in nature besides his most famous work, Saturn Devouring His Son.

I like Goya a lot. How about Giambologna for the unaffiliated Demonic? He's famous for the sculptures of samson slaying a philistine and the rape of the sabine woman.

Maybe we should make the mundane artisan someone who's neither a sculptor or a painter, just to show their difference. A musician? I like the idea of them selling guns in instrument cases.

Alright, so recapping so far.

Our weapon merchants are
Umbran Demonic: Rodin
Umbran Angelic: Bosch

Lumen Demonic: Dalou
Lumen Angelic: Caravaggio

Unaffiliated Demonic: Giamologna
Unaffiliated Angelic: Goya

Mundane: somebody, not sure yet.

Players can either be Umbran Witches, Lumen Sages, or regular, if crazy skilled mortals.
Character creation involves rolling/point buying stats, having players design their signature weapons from base weapon types with modifiers added on, then have the Witch/Sage players take their contracts to their respective Angels/Demons while the regular mortal players pick their skills to be absurdly good at.

Combat and gameplay are definitely stealing the Conditions from Legends of Wulin as hard as possible, and possibly using its Ripples system.

Why not the multiplease action per single roll, as well? That feels very Bayonetta

> the regular mortal players pick their skills to be absurdly good at.
They could also pick a "patron / mentor / obligation". Someone who supports them, taught them, or they rely on. The contracts can complicate witches and give them interesting RP and the GM a new NPC. Mundane should have that too.

Part of the utility of Mundane is having such a connwction (with a more down to earth ally) right off the bat.

I like the mentor idea a lot. It gives each player their own npc for the DM to use.

In terms of characters having multiple actions, I had the idea earlier in the thread for the characters having a pool of dice they can spend on multiple actions. The idea would be that you could say split your dice between shooting, taunting, dodging, and other actions that refreshes each turn. In order to dodge at all, you'd need to save dice to dodge at the expense of losing potential attack/damage/other action dice.

How does that sound?

I think it sounds good.

Devil may cry splat when?

Once we finish the base game.
Which we would gladly take more help with.

What if you give people shitloads of actions, but the individual impact of any given action is modest, EXCEPT for the fact that you can reverse momentum?

Combat is less about dealing damage, and more about applying debuffs, with the exception of critical hits which absolutely CRIPPLE combatants, but delivering a critical strike is often risky, and failure represents a major swing in the combat's direction.

The PCs(and bosses) are special in that they have the ability to either recover from crippling critical hits, or make them incredibly difficult to perform.


Think D&D 4e, except probably less autistic and plodding. A dynamic initiative system is mandatory(I'd probably look at Feng Shui for inspiration)

Should players be able to contract with Jubileas or Sheba?

What should we consider the "average" Lumen Sage to be like?
We've only ever seen two, and they're the same guy.

Should we consider the Masked Lumen "average" since he was taken from the timestream before anything fucky went on with him?

I want to say not as primary contracts. Jubileas and Sheba should be only accessible to players as temporary contracts, and ones that are very expensive to enact.

On the other hand though, the Masked Sage is on a comparable level to Bayonetta, who we can assuming considering the events of the first game is crazy high level. I think an average witch/sage would be weaker than both of them, but more along the lines of the masked sage than bayonetta herself, with the idea being that over the course of a campaign they gain enough powers, weapons, and skills to let them do things like fight Jubileus in space.

What else should we brainstorm?
What other rules should we work out? Should we start working on some of the fluff?

I would be down to work out some fluff before we go heavy into the rules minutia. How about we brainstorm up some Angels and Demons for pacts? I figure they'd each have a kind of basic premise, maybe a quote of some kind that encapsulates what they do and who they are, a type of wicket weave they do, and the requirements of their contract/their contract's manifestation (Madama Butterfly takes the shadow of its user, making their shadow the Madama)

Sure.
For demons, I think it would be fair to reuse some if the ones from the games like Hydra or The Carnage, so we're set there in regards to pacts until we want to make extras.

gonna start off with some angels

>Deva, the Hymn of Joy
>Once a young woman with a beautiful voice, she ascended to Paradisio after converting a coven of witches with an enchanting song. With the body of a great fish and the head of a songbird, she teaches the songs of Heaven to those who will listen.
>Deva's wicked weaves manifest mostly as her pecking at enemies with her spearlike beak, although she can also sing eldritch songs to deal damage to beings and objects aligned to Inferno.
>Anyone who contracts Deva loses their voice, as Deva gives it to an angel in a heavenly choir she commands, and they also must not purposefully interrupt anyone singing a song on their own free will.
>Those who have contracted with Deva can be identified by their silence, and by the fact the slightest sound of Heaven seeps through their bodies.

>Heracles, the the Fist of Kings
>Wandering through Paradisio as a lone soul, Heracles has taken it upon himself to protect the weak and the vulnerable; children in particular. It is said that his mighty arms can rip mountains in half, and that he hears every prayer from a child in need.
>Heracles is a colossal humanoid angel, and as such most of his weaves resemble those of Hekatonchier or Madama Butterfly. One notable trait of his, however, is that the tips of his fingers contain marble faces that can exhale a toxic gas.
>Lumen Sages that have contracted with Heracles are expected to come to the defense of children at all costs, and must never hurt or disrespect one lest they face the angel's wrath head on.
>The mark of Heracles which lies upon those who have contracted with the giant takes the form of a set of angelic tattoos, a script of inaction covering every inch of the users arms, legs, and torso. The script details the great accomplishments of Heracles, and the battles he has won.

>Agamemnon, the Swallower of the Sinful
>A mix between a massive golden crocodile and a great sea serpent, Agamemnon is one of Paradisio's most loyal hounds, and a symbol to the faithful as the promise of retribution after death. It us claimed that the yawning stomach of this beast holds the most intense tortures and terrors in the whole of the Trinity of Realities, surpassing even Inferno in its cruelty.
>Agamemnon's wicked weaves consist of the crocodile picking it's head out and attempting to chew on opponents. The serpent is very partial to swallowing whatever it can, and can create powerful vortices in air and water from the force of it's gulps.
>Lumen Sages that have contracted with Agamemnon must never, under any circumstances, knowingly ally with a demon. It is discouraged but not disallowed to work with Umbra Witches, but all demons are enemies to be cast into the pit of the crocodile's gullet. The same antipathy is extended to murderers and adulterers.
>When a Lumen Sage allies with Agamemnon, they are branded with a hunger for raw meat and golden scales growing out of vulnerable areas of the body.

>Venus, the Render of Evil
>Flitting through Paradise, the praying mantis known as Venus does her work. Nesting in a massive ball of spun gold, she searches the mortal world endlessly for those who would seek to impede the will of Heaven, doing all she can to wipe them from the world.
>When Venus performs a weave, she will manifest one or both of her golden forearms to act as large blades of incredible sharpness, stabbing and slicing at whatever she is commanded to.
>Lumen Sages that have allied with Venus must search out and destroy any enemy that Venus commands. No matter who or what they are, they must be killed. Almost anyone can be deemed an enemy by Venus's manic gaze, so those contracted to her must stay weary.
>Lumen Sages allied to Venus have blood that takes on a golden hue, and eyes that similarly assume a gleaming quality.

Well, of we go by 's idea, the average Lumen Sage has feather projectiles (although that could just be a Balder thing), minor elemental control, light speed, and wall walking, so that's what their powers should probably involve.

That sounds perfect. A nice balance between LoW and Wushu.

Hopefully we can get an user who knows Enochian to help out when the time comes to write down some of that script.

>The question is how do we represent the witch time dodge?
A sufficient gap between the Atk and Def rolls, a defensive crit mechanism.

Any other things we should brainstorm?

Hopefully this thread is alive by the time I wake up tomorrow.

Sounds pretty nice.

We should probably start listing off what kinds of powers Bayo and Balder displayed in the games so we can figure out what the players and should get.

What should the PCs stats be like?

Everyone in the platinum-verse is just a good fighter, with enough power to beat whatever comes their way in a flashy manner.

Whatever stats PCs should have would be more things like what style they use to beat enemies than actual hard stats like strength or dexterity or whatever.

right off the bat we can say
>wicked weaves
>wall walking
>shifting spiritual wavelength>super strength
>control over time
>summoning

This.
We would like all the help we can get.

does anyone else have any ideas for angels to contract?

what should the average turn consist of?

This completely.

What should the rules on Climaxes be?

I was thinking that they could be moves that cost a bunch of resources, but are incredibly powerful and can instantly kill any enemy below a certain health threshold.