/dcg/ Dropzone/Dropfleet Commander General

>1000 points clash with extra dropship

Standard Army
Clash: 998/1000 points
Standard Army
PHR Standard Roster [998/1000 pts]
Hand of the Sphere [361 pts]
Command Squad: Zeus(War Advisor), Zeus, Neptune [232 pts]
Sirens: 2x Sirens, Triton A1 [129 pts]
Battle Pantheon [124 pts]
Battle Squad: 2x Ares, Neptune [124 pts]
Battle Pantheon [166 pts]
Battle Squad: 2x Phobos, Neptune [166 pts]
Immortals [212 pts]
Immortals: 2x Immortals, Neptune, 2x Juno A2 [140 pts]
^ Sharing ^ Immortals: 2x Immortals [72 pts]
Air Wing [135 pts]
Athena Squad: Athena [135 pts]

Don't play scourge, just fight them. If I had to fight that range of scourge I'd lose the Junos are put my Immortals in tritons (no other response to destroyers other than being everywhere they aren't, so infantry heavy). I'd change my command squad into a Zeus + Odin from a x2 Zeus to grub for points. I'd keep everything mobile, so no walking Zeus or Phobos (I figure that is where you'll get different kinds of PHR advice). Athena for the bouncing. And by the Sphere I would bring Helios- shaped charge swarm with the AA rule- they can do everything that needs to be done against Scourge.

Unfortunately, we're working with limited models, while I try to get a new player into the game.

I'm more wondering what the scourge list should be. This is what I was thinking immediately, though I do want to find a list that slots in the Oppressor and Ravagers. I just don't have the points at 1000, I feel like?

Standard Army
Clash: 996/1000 points
Standard Army
Standard Roster [996/1000 pts]
Oppressors [353 pts]
Desolator: Desolator(Champion) [195 pts]
Reaper Squad: 3x Reaper, Marauder [158 pts]
Vanguard [105 pts]
Hunter Squad: 3x Hunter [105 pts]
Vanguard [105 pts]
Hunter Squad: 3x Hunter [105 pts]
Warriors [237 pts]
Warrior Horde: 3x Warriors, Marauder, 2x Invader [156 pts]
^ Sharing ^ Warrior Horde: 3x Warriors [81 pts]
Occupation Patrol [196 pts]
Destroyers: 2x Destroyers, Intruder Alpha [140 pts]
Minders: 4x Minder, Intruder Beta [56 pts]

I thought that was a Lego from the thumbnail. Now I'm sad.

Why have nobody posted the link to the new experimental 2017 tournament errata?
>Giganting PHR buffs.
>Sligt Shaltari Nerfs
>Slight St.Petersburg buff

Change #4, Crippling and Particle Rules Combo
Rationale: So far, this change only applies to one ship (the Diamond) but may apply in future to other ships. This is quite a small change and simply makes the outcome of a Crippling roll from this ship’s main gun likely rather than almost certain.

1) Pg 69, Crippling, End of Section, Add the following: If a weapon with the Crippling rule is affected by another rule while would make Critical Hits automatic (such as the Particle rule) then the roll you would have needed to achieve to a Critical Hit is the roll required for the Crippling rule to take effect. For example, a Lock 3+ weapon would need a 5 or 6 to make an additional roll on the Crippling table.

Pg 199, Diamond: Increase pts to 290
Pg 212, Topaz: Reduce pts to 37
Pg 212, Jade, Particle Lance: Increase the Lock value of this weapon to 2+
Pg 213, Amethyst: Change the Attack value of the weapon ‘Microwave Array’ from ‘D3+2’ to ‘D3+1’
Pg 214, Glass, Ion Lances: Add the ‘Close Action’ special rule to this weapon

Change #5, Increasing the Effectiveness of PHR Heavy Calibre Weapons

Rationale: In general, these weapons have been somewhat underwhelming to players. As a result, the following change to the Calibre rule is proposed:
1) Pg 67, Calibre, add the following sentence: ‘In addition, weapons with the Calibre H and/or S rule inflict Critical Hits on rolls exceeding their Lock value by ONE rather than the usual two (against targets of any Tonnage value).

Pg 170, Hector, Medium Calibre Broadsides: Both gain the ‘Linked-1’ rule
Pg 171, Achilles, Heavy Calibre Broadsides: Both gain the ‘Linked-1’ rule
Pg 175, Orion, Medium Calibre Broadsides: Both gain the ‘Linked-1’ rule
Pg 178, Ikarus, Medium Calibre Batteries: Both gain the ‘Linked-1’ rule
Pg 181, Calypso, Advanced ECM Suite rule, Change 1st Sentence to: ‘Once per turn, when an enemy group has allocated Attack Dice, you may add 1 to the Lock values of this group’s weapons this turn against a single friendly ship within 4” of the Calypso.

>Pg 170, Hector, Medium Calibre Broadsides: Both gain the ‘Linked-1’ rule

Couldn't hurt, might help? Orion shows it up though I think.

No talk of how the Charybdis may be the best bombardment ship in the game now?

Pretty sure the Jet or the Tokyo is that; any Scourge admiral is free to plunder his frigate budget to field a bombardment ship.

>it certainly isn't the worst now, though
>there may not BE a bad bombardment ship, if Ganymede isn't considered to be one

Don't think it is honestly. It still can't do its job any better while hiding in atmo, so while it's definitely better now, I don't think it's the top bombardment ship.

The PHR got so many juicy buffs I can't really be mad about the Ganymede anymore.
>It's still godawfull at bombardment though.
>It was the first ship I assembled, assuming it was going to be good on the basic principle of me enjoying the sphere out of my demo-PHR list.

Well it's not *bad*, per se. It's still a PHR troopship! The fact that it and Orpheus didn't swap costs means a slight disconnect between design/playtest meta and command-cardless in the wild meta, though.

>then again, I've seen a guy use an Orpheus as a slow 130-point linkless Ajax and be happy to do it.
>sometimes you just need to frantically throw a fistful of dice at things and screw whatever else this game is about

>jade buff, topaz buff, glass nerf, diamond nerfs a buttload,
>PHR heavy weapon buffs that are reasonable, good linked buffs and calypso's arguably huge buff against swarm ships that are getting more popular

whats this about Charybdis?

cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0159/4298/files/ExperimentalRules.pdf?2506305336218858126

Found the rules, holy shit that New York and Scylla change, I love them.

I honestly don't like the New York change; the extra launch is nice, but the fact that the New York is the UCM's only access to torps would have hopefully meant that it'd be buffed that way, rather than through something they already have access to.

I want to try and do something similar to this for my DFC Scourge; how are those glowing effects achieved?
White base color, very light green layer, and a green glaze?

It's plasma bombs and the scylla's upshot are now 3+ lock base

As a shaltari player the New York change feels like it steps on our toes a bit. The platinum was the only Launch 7 ship previosuly and gave up having a primary weapon equivalent for it. Now, the New York is cheaper with worse secondary weapons, but it still has its two torpedos even if they still need touching up.

Agreed; by all fluff accounts, the New York is technically a super carrier now. Dave can do what he wants, but 6 launch is just as good as 7 launch, considering the UCM's launch assets.

By all fluff accounts it's a battleship. Interpreting the Platinum fluff account in just the right way and then applying that twisted interpretation (7 launch assets equals a super carrier) to the New York lets you assume that the UCM ought to call it a Super Carrier.

(The Platinum fluff actually says the UCM would reckon it as a super carrier because its internal space is dominated by a flight deck. The New York has a whole lot more than that going on.)

Fuck, the UCM doesn't think *Bellerophon* is a carrier.

I don't see what you're getting at, user. In any case, Dave outright stated in one of the BoW videos that launch 7 = supercarrier.

Then again, the fluff is litterally his to change. All that I do know is that the UCM has five supercarriers, but thirteen New Yorks.

5-Launch New York in the fluff is effective. That's clearly untrue. So where does that leave us? :)

NY really really really needed those extra squadrons. Having 6 would still leave it as bad. With 7, it's conceivable as an *option* that's not grossly inferior to two Seattles.

Or, or, you could buff the torps. Y'know, the thing that only the New York has for the UCM.
6 launch isn't "still bad", it's better than 5, and doesn't mess stuff up like 7 launch does.

I don't see what the huge aversion to just fixing torpedoes and making them an actually effective primary weapon is.
7 launch is definitely a buff (as much of a buff as 2 extra UCM assets can be), but it's the wrong buff.

Probably because Torps are weird for everyone. Makes more sense as a blanket change (as no ship with Torps is in a great spot).

But the NY incidentally, needed her planes not to suck. Remember, the Minos has great guns, a powerful super-CAW, and superior torps... and was still suffering.

If we do a torp buff as strong as say... making all torps have crippling or something, then NY still I'd say isn't still the auto-take BB choice for UCM. Beijing and Tokyo are still so sexy.

I'm glad to have a use for my Achilles as a crit producer. Now I just have to find people to play with again.

On the other hand Plat still has 4" more scan, slightly better thrust and PD, 1.5x the average damage on its guns, superior CA, one third the signature value with shields down, better armour against most weapons with shields up and better quality strike craft.

Even with torps and the recent buff NY hasn't got shit on Platinum.

>Probably because Torps are weird for everyone. Makes more sense as a blanket change (as no ship with Torps is in a great spot).
Why?

>But the NY incidentally, needed her planes not to suck.
Why? She's not just planes like the Platinum is, she's both planes and torps. If anything, due to their rarity in the UCM and the one-per-turn thing, the UCM torps ought be a grade above everyone elses.

>Remember, the Minos has great guns, a powerful super-CAW, and superior torps... and was still suffering.
Yes and no; The Minos has all that, but pays for it in points, and technically the PHR torps are equal to the UCM. I don't know what you're talking about though, the Minos is just as good (if not better) a pick than the Heracles.

>If we do a torp buff as strong as say... making all torps have crippling or something
That's one solution, but not the only I'd do.

>then NY still I'd say isn't still the auto-take BB choice for UCM. Beijing and Tokyo are still so sexy.
That's good! No ship should be an auto-take choice, except for mission critical stuff like strike carriers! Hell, even the Shaltari should be forced to choose between the Diamond and Platinum, rather than the former being an auto-take without fail.
I don't know why you think anything should be an auto-take.

It's also 15 points more expensive.

Honestly, I'd consider making the New York only 255 points, or even 251 like the Beijing. I know it normally breaks the mold of carriers being more expensive (in general), but the loss of the Cobra really hurts it, whereas the Tokyo can still function in combat fairly well.

Scourge - 1254pts
Scourge - 15 launch assets

SR15 Flag battlegroup (265pts)
1 x Dragon - 265pts - S
+ Fleet Champion (40pts, 3AV)

SR5 Line battlegroup (105pts)
1 x Chimera - 105pts - M

SR12 Line battlegroup (344pts)
1 x Hydra - 140pts - M
1 x Hydra - 140pts - M
2 x Gargoyle - 64pts - L

SR12 Line battlegroup (304pts)
2 x Ifrit - 220pts - M
2 x Harpy - 84pts - L

SR5 Pathfinder battlegroup (130pts)
2 x Gargoyle - 64pts - L
3 x Nickar - 66pts - L

SR3 Pathfinder battlegroup (66pts)
3 x Nickar - 66pts - L

How do I trim four fucking points
Do I just drop the admiral by a step? It seems like such a scuzzy solution.

Very true, and I'm honestly not too big a fan of trying to compare ships across faction except in a general sense. My problem with it is that both ships carry similarities to their faction's primary BB (Diamond and Beijing) but the Plat traded a big honking gun for a big fighter bay and the New York traded a laser for two shots with a torpedo and a bank of mass drivers for its fighter bay. That combined with the whole 'supercarrier' designation of the Plat makes me feel slightly annoyed that this is the way they're trying to make the NY better.

>I don't see what the huge aversion to just fixing torpedoes and making them an actually effective primary weapon is.
Neither do I, but as long as it's there the buffs to torp ships might as well actually make them worthwhile. Launch 6 wouldn't do that for the New York, Seattles would always be the better choice. Hell, the only reason I'd consider it even now is because I like the look.

I'll call bullshit on Minos being better than Heracles. That crippling super gun kicks the shit out of neutron missiles and torps combined. Mind you, Minos isn't bad or anything, it's probably the best torp ship. It actually has a risk of becoming overpowered if/when the torp buffs do arrive.

10 points more expensive. Unless Plat has gotten a shadow nerf at some point.

with the changes to how admirals work you'd be fine cutting him down a bit. He'll still by 4AV, which seems like a fine investment.

Turn the Dragon into a Daemon, duh.

You actually *went out of your way* to have this problem. For shame, user.

>two scourge battleships, and you payed extra for the one that gives you worms

I wanted max launch senpai. I guess it could work, but dat >15

Does the actual rating of the admiral matter at all, or is it only relative to the opponent's admiral? my value vs yours, rather than absolute number? Because in that case, the the 40 over 20 seems like a good thing for a launch-heavy skew.

I believe AV affects the number of command cards you can hold. that's the main power of it though beyond the relative value.

>Launch 6 wouldn't do that for the New York, Seattles would always be the better choice. Hell, the only reason I'd consider it even now is because I like the look.
I mean, you're not wrong. I'd say that even with 7 launch, the 2 seattles are a better choice than the Nork, simply for their guns. The torps really should be its strength.

>I'll call bullshit on Minos being better than Heracles. That crippling super gun kicks the shit out of neutron missiles and torps combined.
It really doesn't, honestly; 2/3'ds of the time, the Minos is doing better cripping damage than the DMC, its crippling weapon works with its broadside arcs as well, additionally being able to use them alongside the neutron missiles on standard orders.
Furthermore, while you may think that PD neuters it, it takes a full 4 PD saves to neutralize a single critical hit from the neutron missiles.

>10 points more expensive. Unless Plat has gotten a shadow nerf at some point.
Holy shit, I could have sworn the Shaltari BBs were 275 this whole time.

Okay, the AV of base on a BB seems fine then, but I'd like to have one-up the average opponents so I can assign strike craft first- especially when I'm a launchskew.

On the other hand, I kind of *do* feel like I'm short on guns, so swapping for the Daemon might be good.

I think torpedoes need one of the following buffs to not be a disappointment :

1) Torpedo attacks automatically count as a critical hit.
A common suggestion. Makes torpedoes a delayed but very powerful and consistent weapon.

2) All existing torpedoes gain the Crippling rule.
Torpedoes remain a gamble, but the potential payout is higher. High enough to reasonable destroy a cruiser in a single blow.

3) Torpedoes strike immediately when fired at close range. (like bombers)
Rather than buff their power, this makes torpedoes easier to use. Grants ships access to incredible high amounts of potential burst damage.

4) Increase the range on all existing torpedoes.
Given sufficient range to be used as first-strike weapons will allow players to react to the outcome of their own torpedoes, rather than having to gamble on if a torpedo will inflict sufficient damage to finish off a wounded vessel.

5) Have torpedoes ignore debris fields (or maybe just fine debris).
Because look at them. They're huge! Can probably be safely combined with another buff.

Half the time the Minos isn't even using those neutron missiles, because they can only hit targets 10" away. Heracles can potentially nail a cruiser from 28" with a Pandora team or active scanner to mark targets, and a battleship from even further away. You can kill other snipers and backline motherships easily with the Heracles, not so much with the Minos.

Very true, but the Heracles will rarely get a chance to bring its broadsides to bare. If you play the Minos aggressively and get it stuck in by turn two or three (especially with the newly updated Calypso support), it'll outshine even the luckiest Herc.

>1
Depends on what they do with the particle rule and its wording, but possible.
>2
Personally, I wouldn't support that as a universal thing. Crippling very much feels like a high-tech rule that should stay with the PHR and Shaltari.
>3
Agreed, definitely. I don't know why they don't already.
>4
Agreed, but only if it gives variety to existing torps among factions.
>5
Agreed, they probably have frigate level armor anyways. Having them take the saves that ships would take, rather than fighters and bombers, would be best.
I posted this last thread, but here's how I'd fix the Torps.

>UCM
12" thrust; 2+ lock; 1 attack; 9 damage
Simple, powerful, and a long enough range to actually matter. The New York suddenly gains access to the single most powerful weapon in the game, able to more reliably out damage any laser, and if lucky will cripple any ship save a PHR battleship.

>Scourge
12" thrust; 2+ lock; 1 attack; 4 damage; corruptor
Same as it is now, but corruptor updated to be not useless.
In particular, corruptor would add fires on a 5+ for each current hull point. When the corrupted ship gets crippled, that would become a 4+ on each current hull point.
Keep in mind that it still requires the torp to get a critical hit.

>PHR
9" thrust; 2+ lock; 1 attack; 6 damage; crippling
Goes with the Minos being a brawling rape machine.

I'd also say that Hawk should make the critical lock bonus that heavy PHR guns get into a special rule of its own and give it to all torps.

>Penetrating
Critical hits require a roll of one less than they otherwise would.

Also, while we're at it, reword particle to be the following.

>Particle
Saves cannot be made against any damage inflicted by this weapons.

I'd make PHR particle and UCM crippling personally, with both being damage 6. Crippling can fuck up any ship real bad, so limiting it to 1 per turn is probably best, especially with the Minos already having a crippling weapon. Thrust values are good, both PHR torp delivery systems are brawlers so lower thrust makes sense.

Fair enough; in that case, I'd down the UCM to 8 damage instead of 9.

Giving the PHR torps particle doesn't make sense thematically, so maybe something else instead?

>Breaker
All armor saves made against damage from this weapon are 6+

Does close to the same thing, without being weird.

Just renaming particle to overwhelming power like in DZC would probably be best, it would allow more versatility in its use and would sound much cooler as well.

Eh, I feel like it's good for the Shaltari to have that as THEIR thing. You can have other effects that are functional the same (if Particle is reworded like I suggested).

Besides, making every hit a critical isn't quite the same as particle, because particle ignores passive saves.

It's night shift in /dcg/, and all's well!

I wonder when the Saratogas are going to start shipping. People are getting their limited items already.

All those Lock buffs are making me wish I'd build more than just Gargoyles, Djinn, and a pair of Harpies out of my Scourge bundle. At least I have plenty of Gargs considering how squishy the Chimera is.

How many Gargs and Djinn you got?

5 Gargs, 4 Djinn, 2 Harpies in total. The last hull is sitting around having an identity crisis while I try to salvage the crummy paint job on my Basilisk.

That's totally fine, you didn't overdo it. Make another Garg then buy another frigate box. I wouldn't want to have any less than 6 Gargoyles available. You can't afford to lean on troopships as Scourge like PHR or to a lesser extent UCM can. Chimera is too squishy for that.

And on the plus side I now have plenty of unused Char pieces to make some corvettes in the vein of pic related. They've got a nice look to them and they're a damn good project considering how broke I am at the moment.

I'm sad I can't grab an Aegaeon while they're up on the store, though.

If they weren't the color of a dildo I'd take those much more seriously.
They look pretty slick, though.

>Wolverine AA minigun is named Punisher
>Phoenix giant missiles are named Punisher
>Hannibal main cannon is named Punisher
Humans really need to come up with some more original names for their weapons.

My friend you must have some fancy dildos.

How about you take the Alexander's main cannon and name it the Punisher!
How is that for original naming?

sky blue with the visible pastel texture of silicone isn't a common dildo color?

I mean I'm not exactly a connoisseur so I can't be sure but I don't think it's the most common or anything. Seeing a blue gradient like that doesn't make dildos immediately spring to mind.

Guess I'm just weird then.
Either way, I do like the kitbash. What'd you do to fill in the seam between harpy bits?

user, pls, save it for the redboards. /dcg/ is a family friendly general of peace.

No we're not. Remember the Jungle Beast wordsmut?

user says, in the giant space penis edition of the thread...

>There it is! It's the Blue Majestic Sea Flap-Flap!
>No Elder, that's-
>Ramming speed! Vengeance! Vengeance!
>Sir, it's a-
>Mock my perfectly average spine length will you!? Finally, I have caught you outside your home environment!
>...you know, there's some things a brain-transfer just won't fix.

wordsmut is blueboard, user

we're generally more subtle than that, user

Those look beautiful.

In that vein it would figure I would find a PHR kitbash I like with a detailed walkthrough to boot just in time for the Echo to become available.

youtube.com/watch?v=0wIUfS0Ffes

Quick /dcg/, what are some interesting color combos and patterns for the PHR fleet, like pic related?

bump

Due to the nature of PHR armor (being featureless and smooth), unless you have an airbrush handy their armor looks best with solid colors, or (as seen in your picture) patterned two-tone schemes. Something like that can be accomplished with a steady hand and some painter's tape, but will look its best with complementary colors that create a functional striking contrast. I think a hexagon pattern would look bitchin' on PHR, but I lack the skill and knowhow to pull it off

I'm seeing a preference break for Scipios over Leonidas.

I wonder what the resistance would do with a stolen Annihilator. I think they'd give it clown makeup on the face.

Now that's a handy video. The Orion chin was always my choice of ventral hull but I hadn't thought to use a heavy chin as the dorsal armor. They miss out on the sweet missile tubes, but I'm still going to bash a trio together.

wew bump

>looted annihilator
>legs replaced with wheels
>old Hannibal turret serving as cockpit, allows transport by dropship (because Resistance sure as hell aren't getting those flight systems to work)
>loads of extra armour plating and auxiliary guns hanging off the sides
>plasma bombard is F(N) and possibly direct fire

Is there an ETA on battle-cruisers? I'd love to add a Perth-class or two to my fleet.

did you put a chaos bridge on your battleship you absolute madman

You are now realizing that the UCM is probably all just a giant Khornate cult bent on murdering everything

It's not mine, but I've been thinking about doing that when my battleship comes in. For some reason I love the idea of the battleship having a bridge tower.

>be scourge warrior on patrol
>Host's feet hurting, kinda enjoying hearing host whine about the pain
>see giant fucking clown car Annihilator come rolling out around the corner
>ghetto little firing positions set up all over it have resistance losers mag dumping down range
>Giant plasma ball comes flying down the fucking boulevard and blows up the Oppressor before it has a chance to fire back

Fucking humans man

Well, PHR bombers *are* awesome.

And Scipios can get them up the table fast, which nothing else in the PHR can do other than Andromedas.

I prefer Leo desu. It's a waste putting strike craft on a ship so good at broadsides. When you can properly make use of medium broadsides they're even better than bombers, doing the same damage without all the maneuvering and PD shaving half of it off. Bell, Andromeda and maybe Ikarus are better for bombers imo.

>my last correspondence with Hawk clarified that I needed replacement resin hulls for the Leonidas and Adamant, was missing a UCM cruiser sprue, and that getting an XL backer shirt instead of a L was my own fault and didn't need correcting
>today I get a package with an Adamant hull, a PHR cruiser sprue, and a second XL t-shirt
Bless this mess.

How on earth do I word my email this time? I almost feel selfish at this point.

So you're still missing the Leo hull? Just say you're missing that, and don't even bother with mentioning the shirt.

Alternately, get cyberswole as fuck so you can fill out the shirt with your a e s t h e t i c s

>Start grazing on Dorritos until the shirts fit, combine two phr cruiser hulls into a BC kit-bash, build your Adamant, and praise the White Sphere from protecting you from the baseline perversion in spite of yourself?

Be specific and itemize. Lists, user. Lists. Conversational language isn't for this kind of thing.

Oh wait, I missed that you were missing a UCM sprue, not PHR.

Hey thread, how's this list looking?
It's so nice that admirals get upgraded for free now, those extra 20/40/60 points are perfect.

--------------------------------------
Scourge draft 1 - 1244pts
Scourge - 10 launch assets

SR10 Vanguard battlegroup (205pts)
1 x Basilisk - 205pts - H
+ Fleet Enslaver (20pts, 2AV)

SR10 Line battlegroup (220pts)
2 x Ifrit - 220pts - M

SR12 Line battlegroup (344pts)
1 x Hydra - 140pts - M
1 x Hydra - 140pts - M
2 x Gargoyle - 64pts - L

SR7 Line battlegroup (191pts)
1 x Wyvern - 105pts - M
2 x Djinn - 86pts - L

SR6 Pathfinder battlegroup (198pts)
2 x Gargoyle - 64pts - L
2 x Gargoyle - 64pts - L
2 x Charybdis - 70pts - L

SR3 Pathfinder battlegroup (66pts)
3 x Nickar - 66pts - L
------------- dflist.com -------------

Not sure about the Wyvern-Djinn combo. The combination of different speeds and atmos capability mean they may not work that well together. I'd dedicate more completely to one or the other.

I'd try to fit in another 3 Nickars. You don't have any troopships and only 6 Gargs, so they need to be protected.

IMO Leo is the better PHR battlecruiser. You have a terrifying potential gun power that you have the speed to use. Take a Bell if you want fighters, its better than the Scipio.

It's night shift in /dcg/, and all's well!

I'd say that PHR bombers are our control element, since no one wants to eat those 2+ hits if they can help it. Sure, the Scipio can deploy its bombers at immediate range and leave your opponent with just PD to defend. But then you lose out on the space to combine a sizeable broadside group with an Ikarus or Bell group to take advantage of the maneuvering chaos that springs up when your carriers on the periphery dump a half dozen bomber tokens on your opponent's vanguard.