Pathfinder General /pfg/

The DM seems to be working out the kinks that made Kingmaker so bad.

And it's using modified Automatic Bonus Progression as an (I think) optional rule!

Can I just go back to ToB? PoW classes are a goddamn clusterfuck.

That's also an option I'd suppose.

I don't know shit about 3pp, someone give me the skinny on PoW and Spheres.

How about you just move back to 3.5 with the rest of the morons? (Note: not defending PoW just stating that it seems you like 3.5 more than Pathfinder...)

It's not worthy of your time. Just try something else.

I've looked at the ToB classes and don't really see what's so great about them compared to the PoW classes. Is this just a nostalgia thing?

Both promise to have lots of nice things for martials, but have fuckloads of overtuned stuff. PoW is older and more developed, but the fix-errata is coming sometime after Half-Life 3.

PoW: Weeaboo Foightan' Magick, or otherwise a style of fighting that reminds one more of a fighting game or MMO power; you attack with a special technique that has a cooldown, and oftentimes has additional effects beyond merely doing damage, such as buffing allies or debuffing/weakening foes.
Spheres of Power/Might: Think about a tech-tree, whereby you unlock more powerful or different options by investing more into a single central concept, like "having a pet" or "raging", or "Time Magic" or "Fireballs".

PoW someone managed to get power creep. ToB was tasteful.

That's a big leap based on a statement about one single 3pp thing I don't like over the thing it tried to replicate.

PoW is the new book of weeaboo fightan magic. You basically have not-spells that do enough damage and debuffs to keep up with casters, or just slaughter everything if you're really munchkining it up. Makes martials fun if you can't think of any way to do it without Wu Xia superpowers.

Spheres I'm less familiar with, but basically you design your own spells and get a pool of MP like it's Final Fantasy. You can cast normal spells like always, but can pump in more points from your pool to do something more powerful. As you can guess, it's basically been used mainly to just kill everything in one big blast.

somehow*

Considering I can bend space time, leaping isn't a problem...

ToB wasn't tasteful. It was just someone's vain attempt to be Feng Shui for Dungeons and Dragons.

I just think PoW classes are inelegant as hell and add too many separately acting mechanics onto a system that was already toeing the line on the amount of moving parts inside.

I'm gonna take the obvious bait: Who the fuck are you

I agree, they're also far too feature-complete

Meh. I see it like the Cleric vs the Oracle.

The Oracle's got shit going on besides its spells and is therefore the more interesting class to play every single time even though the Cleric's stronger.

What about Piranha Strike?

Someday I'm just going to homebrew a document for myself with combat stamina and equipment tricks for shit without it and call that my martial fix.

I've just given up on being a martial in this fucking system altogether. If the main party isn't even going to try and third parties can't get it right why even bother?

PoW errata will be released simultaneously with Tool's next album

I am the Gate and Key. I am Lurker at the Threshold. I am the Opener of the Way.

nigga just use feat tax rules and the unchained stamina system

Unfamiliar with the former, stamina's combat tricks fall under the "not even trying" category for me. Mostly all the system does is move some numbers around instead of anything cool.

Whatever. Fucking namefags.

user the entire game is based around "moving numbers around", are you the same guy from a week or two ago that was complaining that below like, level 7 no characters could do anything mechanically interesting without a buttload of money?

And you, how do you not know Lovecraft? What a pleb.

I'm glad to see someone has knowledge...

Fuck you dickless.

Name-dropping an elder god is an excuse for being a chuunibyou idiot now?

Feat tax rules are mostly just cutting down bloat. Shit like "Power Attack/Deadly Aim is automatic", consolidating maneuver feats, removing Point-Blank Shot as the prerequisite for everything, etc.

What the fuck you edgelord, are you actually a Vilderavn

Someone in my group wants to start with 7 wisdom.

With a race that has -2 wis. So 5.

How the hell do you roleplay that? It says they have the wisdom of a giant maggot. But they really want to do it because they think it will be fun to play.

No, I wouldn't have that problem because my group tends to start campaigns around level 6 and I don't agree with that guy's assessment anyhow.

That said, Stamina still tends to just lead to the martial choosing on a turn by turn basis between full-attacking until the current enemy is dead or doing a combat maneuver. It makes the rut slightly more colorful without changing the fact it is still a rut and I'm stuck with it if I'm trying to play a swordsman instead of a mage.

Whoever thought the full attack was a good mechanic needs to be hit in the face with an old sock. If I never have to hear a player ask if something's within reach of a five foot step again, it will be too soon.

I am drunk and still working on love researcher character. What would be a good class for a man who wants to know how love works?

>Never think before you act, go with your first instinct
>Do what feels good, avoid whatever feels bad, even if it might be good for you
>Maybe you're actually partway to true insanity
>You have no filter between your brain and your mouth
>Sometimes you don't even realize you've said something until people have already reacted to it

Have you seen where you're posting? This site, heck, this THREAD isn't exactly known for being the highest brow of intellectual discussion. Also if you've been here any period of time you'd know that people act like they're fictional characters every now and then, this is nothing new.

Fair enough I suppose, I've always considered the whole "this dragon is able to hit the person in front of it with all of their extremities in the span of 6 seconds" kind of weird myself, but I'm not sure how you'd change things mechanically so it makes more sense...

The major thing about low Wisdom is just that it represents poor decision making. Lot of ways to play it actually.

Extreme recklessness, debilitating cowardice, choice subservience, general madness, no foresight.

Especially fun is low WIS paired with another high mental score. High INT can mean a character who does a fantastic job going through with their awful decisions, coming up with the absolute best plans to get themselves killed. High CHA can make for someone who has no fucking clue what they're doing but the ability to fake it to anyone who watches them.

Six seconds can be a long time in a fight, user. A guy with fast hands can throw a lot more than four punches in that time.

Okay, I'll allow that shitty roleplaying can't really be stopped. I'll even admit that technically Yog-Sothoth is actually on-topic for a Pathfinder thread.

But there's a difference between joking around about lore using the Gods and using a name and "character" as a blanket excuse to be a jackass. This is the latter--it contributes nothing, not even comedic value, to the thread.

I'd be more concerned about getting fucked by spells with that wis score.

I was trying to avoid commenting on this but usually when people play a role up in here it's prompted by something, you know? Opening up with it at the start of a new thread is pretty confusing.

By what excuse would a person living in Katapesh or Qadira or some other Keleshite nation, who has assumingly lived there all her life, end up using a rapier and buckler?

If she's supposed to be using a foreign fighting style as her schtick, it seems like there's so many other options that would make a lot more sense.

One of her lovers was a Taldan Rodelero, and she just couldn't get over how well he handled a sword.

See you say that but I've seen people RP as Golarion gods with 0 provocation in the past, which is why I didn't bother thinking about that guy as a weirdo. That's just me though, right now I'm getting my brain blasted trying to build a gestalt with 4 archetypes spread out across both classes, and it's wigging me out man.

What would be more befitting a deerlike race, just reflavoring a Kitsune as a Tanuki or just biting the bullet and playing as an Awakened Anthropomorphized animal?

Play an agathion-blooded aasimar if you want deerlike, plenty of options there and you can be as much of a furfag as you want.

I never understood roleplaying according to ability scores. Why should having shit rolls or no need to put points in a score determine how a character is played?

>The Strength 7 Rogue walks in, his arms rippling with powerful muscles and abs that can grate cheese

I already did an Aasimar with Sanji, so I'm trying to not do so again with this guy if I can help it.

That said I do know what I've got planned for the classes:
Beastmorph/Vivisectionist Alchemist||Savage/Urban Barbarian.

You're right. My Int 7 Paladin is actually as smart as a Wizard.

Agathion-blooded Aasimar make cute animal-people, including this deer!

I debated about this a lot with someone the other day.
Their main line was 'If you can have a low int/cha/wis and act and get roleplay benefits in a way that ignores the repercussions of that, then that's incredibly unfair to anyone who actually invested in that ability score to be good at it'.

Which I would sort of see the point of if PF wasn't structured in the way it is with some stats being more important than others and vital for certain classes.

>mfw character with 7 Int, 5 Wisdom, but 20 Cha
>mfw dumb as rocks and impulsive as shit, but radiates such innocence nobody can bring a blade to bear
>mfw someone finally casts an enchantment spell on her and she immediately becomes worthless because lmao 5 wisdom

I don't see anything wrong here

Ability scores are a guideline, not a hard and fast rule. That said, if you have 7 Str, you can't lift that cart with one arm and no magical assistance, no matter how hard you strain.

It's a roleplaying game, always feels at its best to me when mechanics and flavour all come together. Helps with immersion, aspects of my character developing without my full agency makes them feel more rounded to me, and it gives me good reason to avoid just taking the most min-maxy route on every build.

A lot of the time I'll make my build first then craft the characterization out of everything I've picked up, gotten some fun characters like that in the past. There's kind of a character building zen when you pick up momentum and each side of your character starts feeding back to the others.

Oh, Kingmaker sounds like the campaign I've always wanted to play in. I'm interested in a party that establishes their own territory. And since I'm usually forever DM with my Pathfinder group it would be great to let loose as a player.

But would a bloodrager be acceptable for the adventure path? I love the idea of a dumb draconic bloodrager forging a land through reckless determination and the help of more competent party members. Especially one that plays to her draconic side, trying to emulate her 'noble ancestors' and amassing a large pile of wealth and power for the sake of being wealthy and powerful.

I know this will sound dumb, but when something says "roll for base damage" what exactly does that mean?

>But would a bloodrager be acceptable for the adventure path?

Well, yeah? Brevoy is swimming in Dragon-blooded people, and she might just have a claim to the Dragonscale Throne as a distant relation to the Rogarvia family!

Where is that pic from?

Bloodrager would actually be perfect considering it's got Charisma as a necessary stat in a game where most of the kingdom-related roles are dependent on it.

>tfw I want to play a dex-heavy character

I'm not arguing that you should be playing the smartest character in the room with a shit int score. But when you're expected to play a retard or an autist in social interactions that shit aint cool.

Then don't dump your scores to retard or autist level. Don't dump shit if you're not willing to suffer the consequences of it.

then dont dump the stats or do something endearing with what youve got.

2hu commissioned it.
No, seriously. It's really cute.

So you can be the marshal or the spymaster.

Power attacks problem isn't that it's mandatory to do relevant damage, it's problem is it's too good since every other single feat in the game does not scale.

If PA was like other Paizo feats, it would be a feat taken every 4 levels.

That said, I think permanencied Anthropomorphic is the way to go, but that just leaves the question of what the bonus on ability scores should be after the Point Buy. I'll look up what normal deer have but is there a general rule for what animals get in that regard or should I just come up with my own?

>High CHA can make for someone who has no fucking clue what they're doing but the ability to fake it to anyone who watches them.

That's how I played my Wis 5, Int 16, Cha 22 Ifrit Paladin. He came up with brilliant plans that inevitably went to shit in the space of six seconds, and ended up just winging it. Everyone else thought is was all part of the plan, and followed unquestioningly.

7 in any of the stats doesn't have to make you a complete wreck at them, and there's usually a few reasonable ways to play any mental score high or low. If you're going to dump them, you should acknowledge this, but you don't have to play aspergers every time your CHA is in the train. Dump it and just be quiet and unused to talking, or dump it and give your chaacter some interesting narrative quirks that're boring IC.

Awesome! Reading up on the adventure path as we speak, but unfortunately I've never done anything with Golarion besides using the gods.

The character would have high Str and Cha, of course, with Moderate Con. Int and Wis are dump stats. Was thinking of using Black Dragon as a bloodline with half-elf as her race so I could substitute some racial traits for better swimming. Then I could throw heavy armor on her with the Steel Blood archetype and still take 10 on swim checks without drowning.

Personality wise she would be rather eager and positive, if simple. Believing herself to be superior to others with her great strength and heritage but being easily mislead and dragged around with her naivete and attraction to wealth (and ancient arms and armor).

Making the only functional combat feat in the game suck to bring it in line with the others is still a fucking terrible idea.

This smile... what feeling does it engender?

In me, it engenders the desire...

A desire to DO LEWD THINGS TO THAT DUMBY

Then make all the other combat feats scale

Haha, oh wow. Someone erasing 2hu's builds too now?

why though? It's the best reason to listen to 2hu

Your girl is probably going to be from Brevoy, which is the setting's version of Poland crossed with Game of Thrones!

Here is the most up-to-date version of the Alchemy-based "destroy everything in the first two rounds of combat, then spend the rest of the combat spamming regular alchemist's fire" build, now that hybridization funnels and focusing flasks have already been ruled out. Spheres of Might's writers should cut down on the Cluster Toss and Snap Toss talents, and key alchemy upgrades to HD rather than Craft checks.

Level: 8th
Race: Human (focused study, heart of the fields)
Class: Blacksmith 5/alchemist (mortal chemist, tinkerer with initiative valet familiar) 3
Ability Scores (20 point buy): Strength 8, Dexterity 12, Constitution 14, Intelligence 18+2+2+4, Wisdom 12, Charisma 7
Traits: Clever Wordplay (social), Reactionary (combat), Spark of Creation (magic), drawback of choice

Equipment Discounts: Craft Wondrous Item feat, Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat, Brew Potion feat, Spark of Creation trait, economic crafting smithing insight
Key Equipment: Headband of vast intelligence +4 (16,000 gp), cauldron of brewing (3,000 gp), handy haversack (2,000 gp), muleback cords (1,000 gp), cracked dusty rose prism ioun stone (500 gp), traveler's any-tool (250 gp), alchemist's lab (200 gp), +X full plate, +X darkwood heavy shield

Feats:
Human Bonus: Skill Focus (Craft [alchemy])
1st-level: Magnum Opus
3rd-level: Deific Obedience (Shelyn)
5th-level: Focused Sphere (Alchemy)
7th-level: later retrained into Great Focus
Human Bonus: Skill Focus (Perception)

Smithing Insights: Economic crafting, shieldsmith
Alchemist Discovery: Inspiring cognatogen

They really ought to.

People would fucking riot in the street if you needed to take Improved Fireball as a spell known as a sorcerer and then take Greater Fireball later on for it to continue scaling properly.

Every new feat should add a new behavior to your fighting style, not "it is now doing the exact same thing it did before but with numbers more relevant to your level."

Combat Talents: 12 = 2 base + 5 blacksmith + 1 equipment specialist + 2 alchemist + 2 alchemical expertise
Alchemy (Formulae package, 1 formula free; Poison package, 1 poison free): Cluster Toss, Improved Acid Flasks, Improved Alchemist Fire, Snap Toss, King's Sleep
Beastmastery (Unskilled drawback, 1 free): Focusing Connection
Berserking (Ineffectual Attacks drawback, Light Swings drawback, 2 free): Savage, Spell Sunder
Boxing (Unprepared Pugilist drawback, 1 free): Verbal Counter
Equipment (1 free): Armor Training ×2, Distance Shot, True Shot

Craft (alchemy):
8 ranks
+8 Intelligence modifier
+3 class skill
+4 racial from human's heart of the fields
+1 trait from Spark of Creation
+4 sacred from Deific Obedience (Shelyn)
+3 Skill Focus
+2 circumstance from alchemist's lab
+5 competence from cauldron of brewing
+2 initiative valet familiar's Cooperative Crafting
Total: +40, take 15 with Magnum Opus for 55, enough for four upgrades on Improved Acid Flasks

Initiative:
1 Dexterity modifier
+2 trait from Reactionary
+1 competence from cracked dusty rose prism ioun stone
+4 initiative valet familiar
Total: +8

Range increment:
10 splash weapon
+30 Distance Shot
Total: 40 feet

Attack bonus with splash weapon out to second range increment (85 to 120 feet):
7 BAB
+1 Dexterity modifier
+1 Throw Anything
-4 range increment
Total: +5, or +3 for the two throws with Cluster Toss

Damage for Improved Acid Flasks:
5d6 base with Craft (alchemy) ranks
+2d6 Alchemy dedication
+8 Intelligence modifier from alchemist
+4 sharpen weapons
Total: 7d6+12 (average 36.5)

Thinking of a Warder myself, so hey, we might make quite the pair--a shield and a sword working in tandem could be a pretty effective team.

Each Improved Acid Flask costs 0 gp to make. With the Equipment sphere dedication, the alchemist's swift alchemy, and an alchemist's lab, each takes only 1.875 minutes to create. Thus, the entire batch of six takes 11.25 minutes to create.

During a long rest, the character uses the sharpen weapons maintenance, giving the entire party a +4 untyped bonus to all damage rolls made with manufactured weapons. Yes, even if someone in the party picks up a weapon from elsewhere; the blacksmith is just that good.

When combat starts, the character uses Cluster Toss to draw and throw two flasks, then uses Snap Toss to draw and throw a third flask. The character targets a single grid intersection, which is only AC 5, and will thus miss only on a natural 2+, even if they are throwing out to 120 feet.

The result is a deadly blossom of unavoidable acid damage, no saving throw required.

How powerful is this "nova"? We are looking at 7d6+12 (average 36.5) × 3 acid damage in a 20-foot radius, then half that much damage 5 feet past that radius, and then 7 × 3 acid damage another 5 feet away.

What can this take out?

Against enemies without acid resistance, this produces 109.5 acid damage in the central 20-foot radius, enough to kill average CR 8s or 9s: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1E2-s8weiulPoBQjdI05LBzOUToyoZIdSsLKxHAvf8F8/edit#gid=3

Against enemies with acid resistance 10, this still generates 79.5 acid damage in the central 20-foot radius, enough to eliminate CR 6s or 7s.

As well: "Targets who take at least 2 points of acid damage from the initial attack take half the total damage again on the following round."

Therefore, this can actually take out a 20-foot radius of CR 12s or 13s without acid resistance, or a 20-foot radius of CR 9s or 10s with acid resistance 10, if the character is willing to endure a one-round delay.

This is still completely excessive, particularly considering that it is an area effect that almost always hits on a natural 2+.

Or just remove it, single highhandedly dealing with a lot of the problems with rocket tag.

>TWF does not scale
>Vital Strike does not scale
>Dodge does not scale
>(almost) nothing
>fucking
>scales

So now the classes that have nothing going for them besides damage output...lose a significant portion of their damage output?

How does that improve the game?

I mean, off the top of my head...

>Make Dodge scale by 1/4th your level
>Improved Dodge lets you add your highest mental ability score to your AC but only while unarmored
>Make a Nat. Armor counterpart to dodge that scales at 1/5 but the Improved portion lets you add your STR or CON to your AC
>TWF just reduces the penalties, GTWF makes it so that you gain the extra attacks at +6 and +11 BAB
>Double Slice becomes Two-Weapon Rend at +11 BaB
>Two-Weapon Feint becomes the baseline, ITWFeint becomes GTWFeint
>Style Feats automatically unlock when you hit the prereqs LIKE THEY SHOULD

Feats REALLY need to be consolidated and expanded. I like 5e's way of doing feats- they're IMPORTANT, not a thing that should make a build functional.

>Make Dodge scale by 1/4th your level

Oh my god please.

>Two Weapon Fighting would scale in a sensibly designed game
>Vital Strike has no reason to be a feat chain instead of a single scaling feat
>Dodge is a terrible feat because it doesn't scale
>The feat section of nearly every splatbook drowns in wasted wordcount because Paizo won't make anything scale

Martial classes do too much damage, that's why rocket tag is prevalent. Wizards having too much going on has nothing to do with martials shitting on everyting.

2hu can post about broken 3PP stuff that one shots appropriate CR encounters, 1PP martials do that normally

>style feats don't autoscale

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Splatbook feats suck because doing anything but 1 rounding enemies with full attacks or lance charges is pointless.

Wizards get to be god because they have their infinite "delete" button, the party barbarians/fighters/whatever

If you're fine with a sword that only knows ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK and wades into the enemy lines spitting acid and crying about the 'pride of dragons!' then yes, it would be an effective team. Just make sure to bring a few silver pieces to throw at her when you need to point her in the right direction.

"This is fitting tribute. I will give your advice some merit, O' wise one."