Evil gone good

I think in one of the Fiendish Codex splatbooks WotC said that if a demon were to have it's alignment changed to anything but chaotic evil it would cease to exist. Which is kind of stupid, I get that Demons are spawned by the Abyss but if ultimate good can fall to evil then shouldn't ultimate evil be able to ascend?

Yeah

I mean I kind of see the sense of it

What happens when something basically made of Evil stops being Evil?

Does it change? Stop existing? Or can it not change on the first place?

Is this actual play experience or are you looking only at the history of Veeky Forums's "lawful good paladin dickings?" I feel like "bro enemy fighter who comes over to your side" is an equally well worn cliche attractive to people. Just throw in some honor and warrior code shit and they become everyone's favorite side character. Especially if they're massive monster men.

I guess the question is what happens to angels if they stop being lawful good? If they also poof into nothing, it makes sense. They are both created from a specific powersource as manifestations of that. They can't change because they are a literal incarnation of that thing, if they did change they are rejecting themselves and their existence therefore poofed into nothing.

but making it so good can fall to evil, but no evil can rise to good is just odd and kinda stupid. I'll the authors the idea that once you are evil its harder to come back to the light than the other way around, but its not impossible.

Turning evil bitches good through dick is my fetish

Doubly so if they are dragons

Not so. There's a lot of evil companions that people wish were redeemable in BG2, including the fantastic tank Kagain the dwarf, but it's just that there's no option for it.

>I find it distasteful that most players only seem interested in redeeming villains, if they are sexy.
This IS certainly a factor for me because powerful evil women being conflicted about their actions and eventually seeking redemption gives me a total heartboner, but seeing other kinds of demons or devils find redemption is cool, too. I would totally go adventuring with a CG Pit Fiend bro.

I think the reason that people gravitate towards redeemed succubi isn't just because they're sexy (although that's still a big part), but because it seems more likely for a demon that is nearly human in form (and which commonly preys on intimate human emotions) to be swayed towards human empathy.

> (OP)
>I find it distasteful that most players only seem interested in redeeming villains, if they are sexy. Everybody wants to redeem the succubus. Nobody wants to redeem the bearded devil.

I've redeemed two demons in my playing career. A succubus (I know, I know), and a Babau. The Babau was an interesting guy. He became a religious assassin that hunted evil afterwards. [Spoiler]He fell again later. Righteous fury turned dark. It was sad.[/spoiler]

I've always felt that allowing absolute evil to be purified to that degree somewhat cheapens the notion of purity.

What makes purity special is that once its tainted, that's basically it. It's over. It's kind of like how Tessa explained the notion of mental cross bleed, using tea and milk as a metaphor. It's extremely easy to combine tea and milk, but it's next to impossible to separate them back into tea and milk.

Good and Evil should be the same way, in that it's much, much, much easier for Good to become Evil. Legions of fallen angels and seduced paladins shouldn't be a surprise. But, for an evil being to become untainted, however, should be something so ridiculous, that's it's just about unheard of, like the notion of separating milk tea back into milk and tea.

I feel like it would be the opposite. A succubus is a corruption of empathy and affection, so she would be designed to use them as tools and assign them no meaning. You would just seem like a gullible tool.

We ran into a Balor Paladin in my current campaign. Those of us who have been adventuring longer still kept our distance from him, but one of our new players didn't know what a Balor is so she walked right over to chat. Turns out that he was banished by a more powerful demon and in his exile on the material plane switched sides. He kinda liked her because she's a tiefling cleric. Hope to see him in battle some day, we've got an archlich and a demigod or two to kill so he'll probably be useful.

Depends on the character, obviously. The 'I must redeem with the Dick' is really, really annoying.

I've had and seen a lot of cool NPCs/PCs who had varied reasons for redemption. I think one of the better was a psychotic, nihilistic military who slowly realized that his protestations that morality is meaningless were, themselves, bullshit and slowly reformed over the course of the back half of the campaign.

We first realized it when he showed up with a small army of goblins and orcs to reinforce us in a minor battle against the BBEG we thought we were gonna lose. It was pretty great.

I feel like any Outsider that rejects its own nature (without direct magic involved) has somehow gained a spark of a soul, or a proto-soul. Otherwise they wouldn't have the capacity for free will to reject that nature.

That's a bit silly. Because that posits evil as the mixed result of tea and milk, not either a tea or milk on it's own. Which is not really how things are presented here with the comparable good and evil planes. What's the tea of good getting mixed with to produce the inseparable evil? Super evil milk?

The reverse argument is that when you manage to give a Demon a bit of a conscious, it's always nagging at them and they'll never be able to be fully evil again. Maybe not Superman or anything, but not pure evil anymore either. We're talking about shades of grey here, for the most part. But if "good" and "evil" are equal and opposite forces and can have crossovers, then there's really no argument for not having redemption if someone can fall.

This is also presupposing a conception of morality that's a bit at odds with how people function. Not that that's anything new for DnD so I suppose it can't really be considered an important factor here. I will say the tea and milk metaphor doesn't work for reasons beyond the one lined up there, which is that is also assumed morality works like liquids (and that you can centrifuge them out or something). You could just as easily make an argument about Lego where you add more and more of a certain kind of piece or structure as compromises to build something up towards a certain goal. If you want to change who you are, it requires a careful reworking of the structure from the top down.

Also purityfags need to go back to /a/.

>I know Fall-From-Grace is the big one people bring up
Despite being a Sensate, Fall did not turn good she only turned Law. Lawful Neutral.

>Tannar'ri turning Lawful IS a big deal
But she didn't turn good. In fact she has some passive aggressive comments about paladins being close minded in the game.

I have a special OC that's like a reverse devil, tempting evil people to do good, or sometime manipulating them or even coercing them into it.
It can be little push, like convincing a bandit lord it's time to settle down, or convincing the evil trade lords that the civil war has gone too violent for their business making them work for peace, or more direct approach like blackmailing a corrupt official to be overzealous in his work.
So some sort of behind the scene schemer that work for "good", a reverse Palpatine maybe.

At some point I considered having her doing more magical things like giving "pure evil" creatures what they lack (compassion or whatever) to be balanced individuals. It kinda fuck them up and it's supposed to be kinda fucked up.

> "Everyone is going to get saved, whether they want it or not!"

PC in my game wants to redeem a fallen angel she thinks is her mother.

I'm ambivalent, but like presenting the opportunity. In a previous game I had a chromatic dragon who was evil mostly because she could be and no one had ever suggested otherwise (with credence) to her. One of the PCs was making decent progress neutralling her before the rest rolled in and murdered her.

She is fairly altruistic, though, even if her ultimate goal is to find some way to end the suffering turning against her nature has caused her. Being wary of smite-happy Paladins is perfect reasonable for any demon that intends to live in normal society, even in Sigil.

>Because that posits evil as the mixed result of tea and milk

No, it posits evil as milk. Tea by itself is good, however, even a little bit of milk taints it almost absolutely irreversibly. It will never not be a mix of milk and tea.

This is actually reflected in some D&D rules, like the Shadowlands Taint Score. Everyone starts with 0 Taint, but upon exposure to the evil of the Shadowlands, they begin to accrue a Taint Score. While there are many ways to reduce a taint score, no matter what you do, you can never lower it past 1.

While something that is pure evil can become less evil, it's next to impossible to become actually good without essentially emptying the container.

>But if "good" and "evil" are equal and opposite forces
That doesn't mean they are identical or work in the same fashion. It's not simply a matter of picking team colors.

>This is also presupposing a conception of morality that's a bit at odds with how people function
Not at all. This is a basic idea shared by most religions, with the understanding that sin is easy and a disciplined virtuous life is difficult. It is generally understood that it is very easy for someone to fall from grace, but very hard for someone to redeem themselves. In fact, some religions went so far as to mark sinners as irredeemable or to put them in a lesser caste, alongside ideas like ancestral or inherited guilt.

Redemption isn't easy. That's why most religions advocate not sinning first.

I think it undervalues the struggle.

You see, Evil is easy. You can get complacent, and backslide into Evil. You cannot gradually turn to good if you're deep in the pit.

You might not be the most fervent follower of Evil, but while you can wallow in your Evil, you can't rest on your laurels if good.

If you're 'lazily' Evil, you're STILL EVIL. But a good guy who doesn't work at it will rapidly find himself neutral or worse.

I see where you're coming from, but in order to truly manipulate something, you must understand it. And if they understand love and affection, it makes more sense for them to fall into the "redemption by true love" that is often romanticized in fiction.

In my setting monsters follow their nature and are bound to it. Creatures that are selfish will act accordingly no matter what trials they endure or lessons they learn. A monster whose soul is forcibly altered (requiring incredibly powerful magic) could stop being selfish or cruel, but it wouldn't be out of choice, it would be because they're no longer inclined towards being selfish. They don't get any 'credit' for changing because they can't do it themselves, and even if they could they would never want to. Monsters revel in what they are, to tell a rage demon to act calm and friendly would come across like telling a normal person to try shoving their head in a lake and taking deep breaths.

Outside of my setting I don't mind Always Evil monsters sometimes being good but they have to go the extra mile to prove their good intentions. A succubus isn't going to be allowed weapons in town and if they start using their charms on people I'm going to start smiting the shit out of them, alignment be damned. Likewise I'll give an Always Good creature the benefit of the doubt during (say) a criminal investigation but if I find out they were responsible the punishment will be far more severe. An (for example) Angel who betrays the trust of a city risks destabilizing any good relationship you might have with the Celestial planes.

That sounds like a good argument for not letting them become angels again, and probably not becoming something like a monk or paladin. That is, absolute purity not being attainable again. Couldn't they at least equal merely mortal Good, though? I mean, no one expects the party's Lawful Good fighter or Chaotic Good rogue to necessarily be unwavering paragons of purity, either, right?
Incidentally, what does this "one drop of evil taints you forevermore" rule say about fiend-blooded tiefling heroes?

It doesn't really work like this in DnD, though. Lazy good and lazy evil are really just neutral most of the time. To be big E Evil you have to be dedicated to sowing pain and misery.

This heavily depends on the religious and metaphysical framework you're working with, though, which is something you probably want to define in the background beforehand.

Judaism has a concept along the lines of "The pedestal given to the repentant sinner is one that even he who has not sinned cannot reach" and, say, Islam is pretty free with the redemption stuff theologically.

You also have stuff like volitional/non-volitional beings in Islamic theology where, say, an Islamic Angel cannot fall because they don't have the free will to fall (And similarly a theoretical non-volitional Bateezu cannot be redeemed because it does not have the free will to be redeemed).

>Couldn't they at least equal merely mortal Good, though?

Personally, I'd say no higher than neutral, with good being only possible through some form of reincarnation or absolute reconstruction. A creature of absolute evil is something beyond merely mortal evil, and they would literally have to change each and ever last one of their basic instincts in order to not be committing some sin every moment of their existence. While most mortals have an innate sense of both good and evil, creatures of evil are fighting quite an uphill battle due to how much evil is ingrained into their thoughts, feelings, and very essence.

>fiend-blooded tiefling heroes?
Having fiend blood isn't the same thing as being tainted by evil. Many generations removed, a tiefling may be inheriting only physical aspects of their fiend ancestor, and none of the alignment taint. Though, more likely than not, that taint is passed down throughout a fair majority of the bloodline.

Especially if he is a fat Mexican

...

I know

I said neutral or good in the op

Ozma from Tic-tacs Ogre goes from evil to good when she gets pissy at the Empire for leaving her brother for dead and lying to her.

I like it, but I prefer them going Neutral, or at least a very brutal to the point where it's a bit questionable if they actually are Good. Also like Always Whatever Evil becoming Other Kind of Evil. Like a LE drow or orc warlord.

Its more like a stocks market. A teacher of mine in college once told me that profit in stocks market is like climbing the stairs and losing is like taking the elevator, way easier to fall and harder to recover after that.

It's only natural. Good deeds tend to pay in the long run, building you reputation and allies, and smart Evil is the best Evil. As long as the vilain does it for his own selfish reasons I'm not just OK but actively encouraging it.

>but are there others?
Yes

Purity isnt the only measure of goodness, redemption, piety, love, etc are also themes so it should be possible for evil to rise.

My OC donut steel idea:

A demon lord makes a deal with a god : Kill his fellow 12 demon lords and he will be given the gift of humanity (which he wants because reasons). Only after the first couple of kills did he realise he was becoming a little more human with each one, and thus weaker. He would need to recruit from mortal talent to defeat more.

So he does exactly that, and a 'DMPC' ends up joining and traveling with the PCs. He's not exactly evil, and his actions will definitely help mankind overall in the long term, but he is, without a doubt, not good for our dear heroes. It certainly didn't end well for the last 3 groups of mortals that went together with him to kill demon lords. With his ever-failing strength, he needs the element of surprise when he unleashes his demonic power for the first time and he can't risk the fact that he is a demon himself getting out, even if his party members survive.

I'm going to make millions, I tell you, millions. You'll see me on TV soon getting record deals with movie studios and publishers

> like climbing the stairs and losing is like taking the elevator, way easier to fall and harder to recover after that.

Or like climbing stairs.

One of the compelling things about a well-done antihero is that you're not sure they'll do the right thing. Now, if you have someone who usually does the WRONG thing, doesn't that have the potential to be a really compelling character, when you're rooting for them to do good for once? Personally, I'd say so.

tl;dr Yeah, I like them. They're fun.

When I do it, it's okay.
When other people do it, not okay.

Good and evil are no real.

Deep.

Blew my mind.

I disagree.
All a character needs to change alignment is to start behaving differently.
The punishment/redemption part is just to make others feel good about it. Which is fine, but doesn't necessarily happens.

Jubilex is pure evil, but seems more than content just to sit in a pool of slime and receive sacrifices.

Doesn't he grant boons in return for those sacrifices? That'd make him responsible for all those deaths, since his followers (probably) wouldn't have any motivation to kill those people otherwise.

There's actually debates among his followers over whether he is even aware they are worshiping him, and some feel it better to consider him less of a proxy-deity and more of just a font of power that can be tapped into.

Oh. Well, he's still granting powers, right? I guess you could say he's Evil in the way negative energy/necromancy gravitates towards Evil.

Was he always like that, though? I feel like you couldn't survive being a demon lord if you didn't pull some outrageous shit at SOME point in the past, even if he's gone all Jabba in the present day.

Apparently, he's not a Tanar'ri, but likely an aspect of either a forgotten deity, a deity from the far realms, or the greater deity of abominations Ghaunadaur.
He's less of a demon, and more of what happens when a god discards a used tissue into the abyss.

I prefer
>good guy becomes evil, still is capable of becoming good again
>evil guy becomes good, can still go back to being a douchebag
>Neutral can swing both ways sometime while getting back to being neutral again some time later

That's why i sometimes seperate alignment that is engraved into the personality and alignment that is nothing more than a reversible change of heart.

Obligatory Fall-From-Grace post.

Lawful Neutral.

See D&D 3.5 the Silver Skeleton Adventure questline.

Redeemed succu in that.

His original Gary Gyax issued origin was that he was Demon Symphasiser Deity that GOT HIS FACE TORN OFF IN RETALIATION AND THROWN INTO THE FUCKING ABYSS by the other deities, and had his soul shoved in a phylactery stuck in a complex dwarf Vault.

As for how powerful he is, OP as fuck, there are so many fucking D&D slimes and his layer is FULL of them, he and his rvial are wasted potential, but he has the upper hand, he's the base values of the abyss in it's aim to destroy everything, anything else is just flavour for cultists, and the best part about joining him as a thrall?

It doesn't matter who you dump in the fucking acid pit whilst three slimes watch, Juiblex doesn't even fucking care, which is like, the best thing ever, because his PrC is amazing, save for the last level, and it works amazingly spliced up with Oozemaster, and get's even more freaky with slime lord and Ghaunadaur worship.

For example, you can polymorph into a Gibbering Mouther with one setup, except you've limitless choices of slime attacks slime-spawning, and best of all, this isn't even including size category increasers, and at this point, you're basically a fucking Shoggoth.

A dedicated cult to the faceless lord (because faceless deity) with a smartass at the top would be dangerous as fuck, because he wants to turn everyone into slimes to survive his lord (who he technically just uses as a means to an end) and abuses this to the max, because Juiblex simply does not fucking care.

Base- Spellcasting Class/Oozemaster/Thrall of Juiblex something before the no potion level, avoid that, Oozemaster actually changes your type, so it's around 7-10 for Juiblex depending if you want the pseudopods from Slime Lord.

This shit is only even more fun if you're A Ghaunadaun beforehand, literally the Omnishoggoth.

Sounds cool

Want a TPK Nightmare?

Beholder With the Beholder Wizard Class/Oozemaster
>Horrible angry screaming Xenophobic deathball whose eyestalks now cast wizard spells prepared and spews slime that can turn into slime and work it's way through walls, polymorph into Gelatinous cubes AND YOU CANNOT ESCAPE

>This is a basic idea shared by most religions

And religions have absolutely nothing to do with discussions of good and evil.

I know right? He literally asks nothing of his followers, his dogma is the dogma of the Abyss, and that can be applied in numerous beneficial ways to a Cultist/opportunist, the ritual to join him requires any humanoid sacrifice (even the evilest of the Evil), so no need to worry about what you kill, and that's basically it, you're set with awesome slime spewing powers, a nasty smell, and it goes greatly with two other prestige classes or even your clerical and racial choices.

Want to destroy? Sure, Juiblex doesn't give a fuck! He does it, but he doesn't ask it of you, but if you want to convenience him use your powers to break down the bond that hold all physical matter together!

Want to be free of physical Limitations? Sure! As a slime you can be any form you desire to be, completely genderless to boot! But some of you can reproduce by fission if you so wish or enjoy the pleasures of the amorphous flesh! It Doesn't matter!

So Join Juiblex! And we can all live in a slimy paradise with no up or down, only the joys of simply moving about surfaces, eating microogranisms and being as frictionless as can be!

And you only need to bring someone to melt alive! We don't care who it is! Evil, good, whatever! DROP THEM IN THE FUCKING DIP AND JOIN US!

I mean, a world of slimes man. Imagine.
But fuck Zuggotmoy though, that bitch sat on a goldmine of fucking meta level spore abuse and she wasted it, fuck her, fuck hey boyfreind Iuz, fuck her Temple, and fuck her stagnation, bitch had her chance, now the rules of nature dictate we break that bitch down and absorb her nutrients. Which is funny, because that's what Mushrooms are supposed to do to natural waste and reduce them to soil, but she's too stupid to even abuse the most basic of this kind of crap, 100% waste of space, Slime Occupation now.

Best part? Everyone avoids you, and in good reason, you do not ever, fuck with a slime, and because yeah, we smell bad, but that's our Eldritch deep sea man musk, really. Hell, you can even do self plastic surgery after a while (I forgot if this was Thrall of Juiblex or Oozemaster) just drag you fingers across your face and mould like clay!

I don't see a Beholder becoming a Oozemaster

They hate everything but their self I can't see them caring about slimes

Or going into an art that changes their "perfect" Being

Eh, it's a suggestion, anyway, could be brainwashed, dungeon-bred, with that Dungeoneering template, or have a brain defect on that logical part of it's brain, or think that making all the Beholders into flying Ooze Orbs would mean it could breed Beholders that it warps the apperances of to look like copies of itself before they come of age so that it's perfection follows or something, and they go about warping other Beholders.

I mean, the example ritualist user was an Eye tyrant, a process that changed it's users type and subtype if performed in 3.5

Also, helps with them eating exorbant amounts of food, they have that weird set of habits, if I recall.

Hmm I guess so

Maybe throw it in with a slime cult as a hidden brainwashed weapon?

Slimes and aberrations are never too far apart after all.

What's the Dungeoneering template?

Am looking but can't find it

I find redeeming devils or demons and rather absurd. They were purged of all of goodness.

Okay, it was dungeonscape, and I'm still one off, acidborn and Sentry Oozes are here, still looking for the one that turns monsters into Oozes (Not sure if that was one for beasts or magical beasts, a Web enhancement has Farspawn Beholders and Monstrous Vampire Beholders, still looking)

I find falling Angels and whatever the fuck their lawful equivalents are absurd, as they were purged of evil/made free of evil.

The first Devils are fallen Angels, who burned away all their good and faith when they fell. Subsequent devils are made from the souls of evil beings, tortured and warped into fiendish form.

Demons emerged from the twisted chaos of the Abyss, literally made of Evil.

Nice Dubs Asmodeus, got any more Disinfo? could've sworn the first Devils were just abyss-tainted Celestials you dragged along with you on your little pact-primeval scheme as the other deities didn't want you torturing sinners on their front lawns and you gained mastery over the plane you immigrated to and furthered your taint until you all became unique creatures with your own energy signatures.

There was baatorians involved in this part somehow, you sure as shit don't get to fleshcraft without using divine knowledge and what you gleam from that entire Demon Species that use fleshcrafting involved in the creation of the Tanari'ri after the Queen of Chaos fucked off.

Barbazu is a lowly dumb brute that bullies soul hussks, that'd be a challenge to change anything in that guy

non-evil balor would look like somethign that isn't a balor
Like, Asmodeus and Dispater were angels some day, and look at them now

You just said a whole lot of shit that isn't relevant to certain settings.

My understanding of Devils are as fallen angels who then torture wicked souls to make more of their kind.

Not Baatezu or Tanar'ri which are names that didn't come out about until AD&D 2e. Before that it was just Devils and Demons.

Yeah but that shit had time traveling LOLCAN'TKILLME Satan.

What the fuck are you talking about?

1e literally Had Satan with the Powers of King Crimson if I recall.

Which book, I can check.

>Have an NPC who is Cambion
>She owns and runs a magical shop with her human husband
>Has already told the party it's not that she's good it's that she likes her husband
>I can't wait for one of them to potentially fuck up and piss her off, or her husband dies somehow

Couple of the players thought it was a pretty nice twist since they had to tangle with a Cambion already. Just because they behave doesn't necessarily mean they are good.

Satan in 1st Edition had "DM Fiat" movement, and explicitly said that this also allowed him to travel through time, allowing him to kill PCs while they're helpless babes.

It was originally published in Dragon #28

Already checked, It's Dragon Magazine 28.
SATAN (“The Prince of Darkness,” “The Adversary,” Lucifer,
“The Prince of Light”): First among devils, Satan is a being feared by
all. He can appear in any form he wishes, but the form he prefers is that
of a normal man, having features which are most likely to engender trust
and respect from the person he is dealing with. In places where he is
master (which are rare these days, although becoming more common),
he will appear in roughly humanoid form, about 7’ tall, with horns, tail
and pitchfork and having a deep red skin color, almost maroon, with a
majestic countenance. He can move as fast as he wants to, and he can
accurately teleport, cross dimensions or even travel through time if need
be. In order to strike Satan with a weapon, the attacker would need a
+3 weapon to hit him, and he would also have to have a clear con-
science and an absolute determination to pursue one’s objective, which
of course must be of the purest motives. Anyone who dares attack
Satan psionically will automatically fall into his control forever (a Wish
can recover an individual, but nothing less will do). Of course, Satan
cannot be affected by a psionic attack, but he will not use normal psionic
attack modes. Satan may use any spell or psionic discipline as often as
he likes. He casts spells as if he was a 30th level caster, except for druidic
spells, which he casts as a 14th level caster. He uses psionic disciplines
as if he had them at the 30th level of mastery with a psionic ability of
500, although he does not actually use any points doing so. Satan also
has the ability to alter fate, in order to cause a number of unfortunate
events to happen to an individual, such as the death of friends and
family and the ruin of business, career, property, social status, reputa-
tion and health, to start with. Fortunately, however, for the victim, if he
remains resolute in the face of this suffering, the forces of good will
eventually relieve-

lolcantkillme is GER tho

That's honestly dumb as shit.

Satan’s main ability is the power of Temptation. He can grant any-
one a wish that will give him anything he desires. All he has to do is sign a
little contract, using his own blood in lieu of ink. These wishes are much
more powerful than ordinary wishes. Satan can also grant normal
wishes without the blood contract, but he rarely does so except to give
some kind of assistance to those already doomed, or perhaps as a re-
ward for faithful service. For anything important, he usually insists on a
contract. After seven years a person who has sold his soul to Satan for
one of these wishes will surrender his soul to the devil (wishes not-
withstanding). If the individual has wished for immortality, then the time
of collection is whenever the individual decides that he has had enough
of life, and voluntarily goes to Hell (most people do in the end), or else
until the person dies by violence (immortality does not protect a person
from being killed either by accident or by combat, although Satan will
sometimes give a person some protection against this, such as magic
armor or a wish or two, or something along those lines, because Satan
prefers people to come to hell of their own free will). Most people
choose to go to Hell eventually. For those who appear to be able to put
up with immortality, Satan has been known to give a few unexpected
surprises, which of course is not covered in the contract, in order to
make the decision to go to Hell easier by making life a little less pleasant
(i.e. intolerable). If a person has not wished for immortality, then he may
have more wishes. Each one costs a year of the condemned one’s re-
maining time. It is best to have the contract actually written out, with
identical copies for the player character and the DM (which the player
should study carefully before signing), because Satan is extremely lit-
eral, and he’ takes sadistic pleasure in twisting the intent of a contract by
fulfilling its letter.

Normally, a lawyer cannot be consulted on such a
contract, and those who will give legal advice on such matters charge an
exorbitant fee. The contract will typically be simply worded, stating who
gives and gets what (n. b. although the character must sign in blood or
the equivalent, the player need not do so; in fact it is recommended that
the player not do this because, health considerations aside, it might just
turn out to be binding, if the tales are true). Once an individual accepts a wish from Satan, there is little chance of getting out of the contract, but it is possible. It is impossible to remove the compulsion to surrender one’s soul to Satan unless the contract was signed while the individual was not in control of himself, in which case the contract is void and the wish is revoked. Satan will retaliate against, the person responsible for this. However, as long as a person is satisfied with the contract, or at least as long as the person does not want to get out of the contract, there is no power in the universe — not a wish, not even God Himself (well, maybe He can, but He never has) — that can terminate the contract. On the other hand, if the condemned person decides that he wants to get out of the contract, there are steps he can take. He still cannot remove the compulsion to relinquish his soul, but he can enlist the assistance of some ultra-powerful being who will do battle with Satan on his behalf. Unfortunately, once the person decides that he wants to terminate the contract, the time he has remaining in years is reduced to that many hours before Satan comes to collect, so one must act quickly. Also, any other devil will attempt to detain the condemned person, or failing that, to kill him.

Does the little baby need his wealth by level?

The devils cooperate with Satan in this one area because the reputation of all devildom is at stake. Naturally, a person cannot take any positive action to get out of a con- tract without first deciding to do so. Any Jewish, Christian or Muslim cleric of at least Patriarch level (such as a Cardinal, Primate, Metropolitan, Chief Rabbi, Ayatollah, Caliph or equivalent) can invoke the name of the Deity to save the person’s soul. However, they usually require some token of one’s devotion to the cause of good, such as the performance of some appropriate Quest, as the price of redemption. In anyevent an Atonement spell must be cast on the person, and a Quest usually is too (hence the requirement of an eighth level cleric). These can be done by God Himself, or any other ultra-powerful being, if He (or he, or she) can be contacted. The normal penalty for failure to complete the Quest is the immediate return of the person’s soul to Satan. “Heathen” clerics of eighth level or higher may also call upon their so-called gods to help an individual. However, only those capable of beating Satan would be willing to help, and even then a god might not want to bother unless the god was especially merciful, or the person was particularly worthy of the god’s attention. Usually Satan will back down from such a challenge, but if he thinks that he has a good chance of defeating the being then he may make the attempt, If Satan wins, there’s probably no second chance. Satan’s allies include those covens of witches who worship him, most others who have sold their souls to him, and Belial.

Sometimes Satan will ask one of these humans to perform some task for him. This is entirely voluntary (well, almost: although it’s not a good idea to cross Satan), and he will reward the person appropriately upon completion. His enemies include all those devils who acknowledge Asmodeus as Lord of Hell (i.e. all the other devils), all the demons, all the angels, all the gods and other powers of good, chaos, neutrality, or any combination thereof, and all the gods and other powers of lawful evil and neutral lawful or evil who are allied with or support Asmodeus or any other enemy of Satan. (And you thought your character had problems!)

whew lad.

Anything that is stated basically as DM Fiat is shit.

Good thing that the very beginning of the section with all that bullshit stats and lore says that none of it is canon is regards to AD&D or Christian doctrine.

So it's easily ignored.

Absolutely disgusting. Evil is like entropy, it is irreversible, once you go black you never go back. The only way to be truly good is to not have existed at all, for any action you take, even existing, constitutes some non zero amount of evil.

It follows that the most good you will ever do, is to kill yourself before you are even born.

Destroy Everything so no one can Fall to Evil!

Would not be surprised to hear some dnd god believed that and has their followers go out and destroy stuff