What If The Rules Weren't Written By Manufacturers?

This is just a general question to /tg about tabletop wargames in general. What if the rules for our favorite games weren't written and maintained by the same people who have a vested interest in selling us armies?

Something I've been mulling over quite a bit lately is that there's a fundamental conflict with miniature games rules being written by the people who make the miniatures. Even if they set out with the best of intentions (and they usually do), sooner or later there comes a point where they've got to choose between making the game better or making more sales. In order to ever really be balanced and healthy, a game's rules need to be stable, and stability - at a fundamental level - is just bad for business. In a stable tabletop game, people can build up their armies slowly, and once they have a "complete" army, they can just happily go on playing it with little incentive to buy more.

To call out GW specifically for this with the pic is beating a dead horse, I recognize, but I think theirs is a story most of tg is very familiar with and serves as a good example. The trials and tribulations of Privateer Press the last couple years look very similar to a lot of us. I'm sympathetic - I think companies hit a critical point in their growth (and some others like Wyrd are probably coming to it as well), where most of their customer base already has an army or armies, and all they're selling is the new releases. That, in turn, means you need a constant stream of new releases, which inevitably leads to bloat in the game. Then, at some point, you have to either outright cull your rules and/or community down to a size you can deal with, or at the very least hit the reset button with a new edition and hope to get back to a manageable place.

I'm not sure what the alternative is. Obviously, there's a ton of rulesets out there that have been written over the years, either fan-made or abandonware from small companies. There's also community maintained systems like what Epic has become, or the various WHFB bastard children.

The problem, as I see it, is that with NO money behind them, projects like those tend to stay fairly low profile. The community also has little faith in them (sometimes justified, sometimes not), and many players are unwilling to "commit" - building an army for any tabletop system is a pretty big investment, after all.

But I think that "neutral" rules have some pretty big benefits for us, as gamers and hobbyists. The first and most obvious is just satisfaction with what we're doing - in a system that's actually stable, you CAN lovingly build up armies over years and continue to put them on the table for many more. It also unfetters us from an "official" line of minis, and with everything that's out there today, that's pretty big.

Anyway, just a discussion starter, really. What do people think?

Better question: What if the rules were actually written by high school graduates who understood game theory, rules, and literature, instead of washouts from the marketing department?

Nearly all wargame rules aren't written by manufacturers.

I play Kings of War entirely with GW minis, and fan made versions of GW's rulesets such as Heralds of Ruin. Net Epic, Wyrd Wars, and 1 Page 40K all exist. It isn't unheard of, but it is much harder to promote a decent ruleset without official figures. A store owner won't promote anything they can't sell you after all, so said rulesets rarely get big.

You are right that the drive to push their new releases really ate up Rackham, GW, and others. Some I would claim haven't reached that point, but it is definitely something that can happen.

This is why as I'm getting older, historicals interest me.

There's a divide generally between miniature suppliers and rules writers, and even if a company does both, they can't gear up to make it a closed circle where you have to buy the new plastic kit, because of all the alternatives available. And it's not like they can pull new units out of their arse.

Though it does seem Warlord are attempting to make Bolt Action work more like 40k or Warmahordes than just another WW2 ruleset.

What's probably the vast majority of systems are written without an attached figure line.

Why they don't get nearly as much traction as the ones that do have an attached line is largely down to gamers not really wanting to have to put any effort in to finding appropriate figures. It's a convenience thing.
Sometimes you get miniatures manufacturers selling one or more systems produced by entirely different, separate companies alongside their ranges, and sometimes you even get the larger companies who produce both figures and rules still effectively advertising other miniatures manufacturers in their games because it's not financially viable/reasonable for them to produce complete ranges by themselves when ranges already exist.

This is seen mostly with historical wargames for fairly obvious reasons though, but also applies to a bunch of fantasy and sci-fi games.

I think I'm a year or two ahead of you
>Ditched 40K, WHF, X-Wing
>Started Flames of war (15mm) and Bolt Action
>Suddenly notice that there's all these "rules" around that work with the same models, some of them are really different
>Start trying to find people to play against, most of my friends are not as into the historical and are going down the Infinity line
>Start hanging aroud the hoistorical games thread
>Find obscure historical wargamng clubs
>Am the youngest there by about 10 years, they're fun and the games are better
>They're suggesting that I should pick up some Civil War minatures
>They all look like my dad
>I look like my dad

OH GODS I'VE GOTTEN OLD!

>historic / RL-based games
OP here - yeah, I can understand that. This is one area where the manufacturers are not dominant, but I think that's in large part because the motivations of the players are different. Most historic wargamers are much more interested in the "fluff" aspect - that is, the actual history - than in a game that is competitively robust or interesting on its own merits. The rules are a tool that serve a larger purpose, in a word.

That may be true of the whole set of all the wargames rules ever written, but if you look at just those that have a global presence, or that most people in the community have had direct contact with, the list is dominated by manufacturers' flagship products. At the very least, most of us were introduced to the hobby by 40K or similar.

What are you playing to have that point of view? I'll agree there are some stinkers out there, but most of the games I've played in recent years were, at their core, very well thought out rulesets. I think it's hubris to assume you or I could put together better rules than what Warmachine or Malifaux are running on right now.

That's not really the point - I don't think either of those are bad games. My experience is just that, when you talk about the future development and growth of games on that path, that the manufacturers' interests stop aligning with those of their customers after a point.

>PP
>Not money grabbing jews

Let's nerf popular armies into the dust only to give them new options later purely on mini sales.

I play a Wargame for three things. moddeling, gaming and painting.

If any of those aspects is lessened, the entire product is lessened.

Hence why I personally avoid historicals and find Warmachine an American fueled blight on Wargaming.

Definitely. So sort of a follow-up question then - what would it take to make an independent ruleset become the "standard" (or at least, something that is widely played) for the broader community? What does that model look like? Is it a community project, or some kind of for-profit that ONLY makes rules?

If you follow the 9th age concept, keep all the old factions who were broken, broken and feed off the anger of neckbeards.

I'm the same way but with fantasy rule sets. A million games have rules for Elves and Dwarves and the like, so reusing WHF figures is pretty easy.

I do play Flames though, it is better than I thought it would be initially. The fact that you can get super cheap plastic figures from other companies helps.

If I came out tomorrow and made the very best wargaming system ever written, but it was set in the modern era, with units that I can't copyright, with standard dice... it'd almost certainly disappear without trace.

People would make the miniatures cheaper and better than me, the accessories would fall to the Chinese, the book would be pirated on PDF and the best I'd do is get Patreon donations or similar. I'd have no funding to advertise and would give up to get a real job.

The solution the market seems to be going towards is basically the Fantasy Flight Solution:
>Make really nice books that people want to put on their coffee tables
>Make loads of unique dice and shit, with specific "trademarks" that can't be copied by a big merchant. Logos, symbols etc
>Get the models to be a recognisable IP which you have a licence for
>UNLEASH THE LAWYERS

Once you have the sales numbers, you can push your product, it becomes popular and generates its own scene.

Problem with wargaming; you require a community to make it work

>Let's nerf popular armies into the dust only to give them new options later purely on mini sales.
I don't really want to harp on the sins of specific manufacturers. For one thing - there are dedicated threads for that. But more importantly, I think those problems are just symptoms of the deeper issue. After a few decades in this hobby, I see certain patterns that repeat. Most companies start from a really good place - dyed in the wool gamers, who really care about the game and the hobby, getting together and creating something. And if they get big enough, or last long enough, eventually it starts to go wrong.

>I play a Wargame for three things. moddeling, gaming and painting.
>If any of those aspects is lessened, the entire product is lessened.
100% agree with the sentiment. Although I don't feel the same about WMH specifically - I think the competitives and the hobby crowd can coexist, and tight/balanced rules benefit everybody. I think warmachine has maybe just become an outlet for that competitive segment of the community because it has few other places to go.

>there are dedicated threads for that.

Only for GW. You fags give everyone else a huge pass because of intense bias against GW, regardless of if you ever actually bought their games and played them.

I would live to hear more about PP and CB fucking up.

All good observations, especially:
>Problem with wargaming; you require a community to make it work
You absolutely do, and most communities are built around stores, which need to sell product to stay open.

But something to keep in mind about the LGS - they don't actually care WHOSE minis they're selling, as long as they're selling something. A manufacturer-agnostic ruleset would still sell minis. Trickiest thing would be introductions for new players - the "starter box" niche.

>The solution the market seems to be going towards is basically the Fantasy Flight Solution
The interesting thing about the "FFG Solution" as I see it - and this is similar to how Wizards operates as well - is they've made the Culling Phase of the cycle part of their standard model. Their systems don't really have a concern with bloat, because they have a built-in life expectancy.

>I would live to hear more about PP and CB fucking up.
Keep dreaming Cevin.

>I would live to hear more about PP and CB fucking up.
Literally just go on the warmahordes general thread for a few days. There's plenty of bitching and hurt feelings.

I'm not giving PP a pass, just observing that they are a younger company that is earlier in their development than GW. They look now a lot like what GW looked like in the 90's.

Shame the game sucks in plat, rrquores standardized terrain (Warmahordes' terrain rulrs are even worse, dont they just use 2D paper cut outs for tournaments now?) and is choked with spam lists. Like Warmachine, it hares rhe very idea if you bringing anything cool that they splash on the front cover.

ESL-kun, please.

Literally who?

>standardized terrain
top kek
>and is choked with spam lists.
Except non spam lists works perfectly too.

>But I think that "neutral" rules have some pretty big benefits for us, as gamers and hobbyists. The first and most obvious is just satisfaction with what we're doing - in a system that's actually stable, you CAN lovingly build up armies over years and continue to put them on the table for many more. It also unfetters us from an "official" line of minis, and with everything that's out there today, that's pretty big.
Alternatively, you can do like Mantic and put out sound, fun and interesting rules while not forcing players to buy your miniature range.

However Mantic can do that because their range has a really good quality/price ratio.

Look at pretty much the entire 15mm scene, doofus

>most communities are built around stores

This seems to be only in North America from my experience. The UK (and many other Commonwealth countries) the wargames club is the basic unit of a community. I am unsure for Europe but I believe it is also the club rather than the shop.

>I am unsure for Europe but I believe it is also the club rather than the shop.
In uni, sure, but outside of a campus the easiest way to find a game is to go to your LFGS, as there is usually a lot of tables there.

>Alternatively, you can do like Mantic and put out sound, fun and interesting rules while not forcing players to buy your miniature range.
>However Mantic can do that because their range has a really good quality/price ratio.
Mantic's model is somewhat unique, for sure. It's also (a) still pretty new, and (b) prettymuch a direct reaction to what its founders perceived as the problems with GW and their games. So, not sure if what they're doing is broadly applicable or will have real staying power, but they're definitely one to watch.

The highest profile 15mm game is presently Flames of War, which is the flagship of a medium-large manufacturer and is backed by a substantial line of dedicated minis, terrain, hobby supplies, etc. What's your point?

The stuff that interests the /awg crowd is, by its very nature, niche. There might be 15 people in that thread right now, and every single one of them is playing a different ruleset, and probably at 5 different scales. I'm not minimizing the value of that side of the community, but that stuff will never be in a spot to replace things like 40K or WMH.

Yup, Europe is pretty much entirely club-based.

Not sure how true that is, being in the US myself, but it's definitely interesting. We've talked a lot locally about the club model, given how much the LGSs are suffering in a internet-sales world.

Biggest issue is the initial kick to get it started - you need a body of committed gamers who are willing to shell out to rent space to play, and at least a few people who have the time to organize. With an LGS, all that "infrastructure" is already in place.

>given how much the LGSs are suffering in a internet-sales world.
It's weird because I'm euro and there has never been so much successful LFGSs around, not even in the 90s. It works so well that the biggest game store in my home city has bought out the whole street floor of a 18th-19th century building to turn it into gaming rooms and store space. Hell, even where I live now (500k inhabitants) there is 4 LFGS, 3 of them in the historical centre and one does miniatures only - not even board games or mtg - and it's thriving.

If anything internet gave those stores even more visibility and customers.

That's pretty wild. I don't think that story is very universal - there are far fewer stores in my area now than there were 10+ years ago.

Good for you guys though - definitely enjoy it!

(You) Here. I play a variety of games. Malifaux, Warmahordes, Classic Battletech, a few other obscure games. But I don't touch anything Games Workshop makes, and you're DAMNED RIGHT I could crap out a better game than ANYTHING GW has ever done in a few hours. I've actually done so, written my own games for myself and my friends to play in our little group. Takes a week, tops. I promise you: Anyone, even you, could do better than all of GW combined if you'd just try.

That's not what I was saying. Better than GW's average crappy output? Sure, I'm not doubting you. But they're only one step above a straw man. GW has come right out and said that they care about making minis, and their rules are provided as a courtesy, essentially. They have no interest in providing a good game at this point.

I don't think that's true of most of the other companies doing the same thing. Privateer, Wyrd, Spartan, and the rest are all trying to provide high quality games, and putting a great deal of time and effort in to doing so (to what degree they succeed at that is a matter of some debate and not really the point).

The whole thrust of my argument with the OP was that, even though those companies are trying to make good games, care about doing so, and are willing to invest the time/money, they will eventually have to make hard choices between the game and the business.

This is the point Warmahordes is at now - realistically, that system has already crossed the threshold into being bloated. If you were designing it purely for the quality of the game, you'd probably want to look at trimming rules and removing redundant units. But that's not how you sell minis, so they are going to keep pushing new releases until the problems grow so large they can't possibly be ignored. The road to GW is paved with good intentions.