I've seen these threads burn and live, mostly burn

Well he ran groups of seven and had 6 groups or so 30x7x6 plus I know he didn't pay taxes so he was alright.

One of my largest critiques of him was that he really didn't do much prep. He winged and fudged a lot of shit.

1260 a month for 24 hours a week, what a fucking racket dude.

You are retarded. 16 hours for 30 bucks is like $1.80/hour. That's less than waitstaff wages and they get tips to boot. It should be, at minimum, min wage/hour. In my state, that's $8.10, so you're looking at $129.60 for 16 hours of work.

And frankly, DMing is something that absorbs a lot more time than the players see and should command a stronger wage. A solid argument exists that paid DMs should make like 10 bucks an hour or more. Problem is, no one will pay for it, so it doesn't exist.

>that's 4 players

>Still given the additional prep time one should probably charge about $120 per player.

No. You are retarded.

Yeah that's the conclusion many of us who played with him have slowly been reaching. Although with his minimal prep time it was probably closer to 30 hours a week. He always promised to do more, have more later he just always needed more time. Now he's starting to do twitch stream, and just got his subscriber button. So he's gonna go whole hog into that is my guess.

Dude didn't say if that was a per/player price or not. I assumed it was 30/month TOTAL, which is fucking ludicrous. All my other numbers keep the same assumption.

Sorry I didnt clarify better.

P2P GM.

Online: Never.
In Person: Would be willing to pitch in to pay for a good GM to run a solid sandbox campaign in my system and setting and starting locale of choice, if the GM was familiar with the setting. (I'd even provide a bunch of starting prep work to ensure it was good and give the GM a good idea what I was looking for)
I would not pay for dnd with a Homebrew setting. Or for GM's choice of system and setting.

I would run a campaign for a group for money if it was worth my while financially. Wouldn't do it for any less than 11.50/h USD when tabulating my prep and GM time.

I'd give a list of systems and settings I was willing to run, and would also take suggestions.

Now that's a quality response. Thanks. I am considering trying to run for a living because jobs in my area are shit, and I have no support to get out of the area. So I appreciate you taking the time.

The 11.50 USD/h is factoring in conversion to Canadian dollars, btw. But then, cost of living is also higher here grabbing lunch at Burger King will cost you $9-$13, for instance, so ymmv.

Whatever you choose should be reverse engineered to give you a reasonable wage, factoring in all the prep time.

I wouldn't trust to pay a DM online unless they had a known good reputation or gamed with him a couple of times for free first. One session or two sessions is probably all I'd need to know if it's good. The other thing is, it's more than just the DM that makes the group. I wouldn't want to pay to play with 3-5 other players that might just be shit to play with.

In person paying could be nice if that DM is using that money to invest in supplies for tabletop, whether it's models, terrain, or books. But still have that issue with potentially not liking the other players as well.

Currently I guess I'm blessed. Got a 5E and Pathfinder group to play with on the weekends. So having to pay to play hasn't even crossed my mind yet. I'd be more likely to DM on roll20 than to pay to play as a player.

1. As a DM who works """hard""" to make my games fun, I do this as a hobby. P2P doesn't really bother me, because in a sense it's like how MtG has people who play the game for fun and people who pay for tournaments and shit. I don't see a point in spending the money but people can do whatever they want.

2. No, for me a total waste of money, I do DM after all and I do it for free. As a DM I buy all the books and maps & stuff; there's no real point in spending more money to then play the game I already own.

3. A whole lot, and a damn good reputation. If I can make an epic story with just 6 days with about 1 hour each day to work on my D&D stories my players really love, then I expect something to blow my writing and storytelling out of the fucking water if I'm going to pay for it.

DM's perspective, from owning all of the materials needed to play D&D, I have a way higher expectation.

Thanks for the input.

Yet here I am, a GM ready to run plenty of stuff for free, but nobody willing to play anything.

But do you take requests?

If your players said "I want you to run a faction sandbox campaign in waterdeep" using Pathfinder, or "I want you to run a Witcher campaign in GURPS with 300pt characters and RPM and Martial Arts", would you do it?

That's where I see P2P GMing fitting in.

If I'm GMing for free, I'm gonna run what I want to run. If you're gonna pay me a reasonable amount for my time, I'll take requests.

Individual markets vary, unfortunately.

If you are talking face to face I could see that. I live in bumfuck nowhere and have no fellow tabletop gamers out here. Have always used the interwebs, and there are an assload of people who want to play with not enough available GMs online.

Are there people who would pay someone to GM for them online, if there is a shortage?

My username must of dropped off was me.

As I mentioned in the main post I -played- in several P2P games along with a whole bunch of other people. So most certainly there are. The big problem with online games for me has always been the flakiness of GMs. In face to face games its almost a non issue since you live in the same area and tend to become good actual friends. When people can disappear with no real social stigma or problem that tends to happen.

Fair enough. I'd think less likely to flake if being paid for a service.

Yeah, I noticed players were more likely to show up too since they were invested in their characters. I'm not going to say the game's were the greatest, because that particular DM was really dumb about certain things, plus his GF made really good money so he really didn't need the income badly or at all. All in all though the games lasted a very long time and played fairly regularly, and the community that developed between the various groups and the game as a whole was really good. Despite the groups dying off, I still talk to many of the other players regularly.

Contemplating for-hire GMing over the internet.

What do people use for tools? I'm thinking Discord for chat + roll20?

I've never really done the online tabletop thing before.

Are there people here looking to hire a GM for hire?

I'd want voice for GM because I just find typing to to be a pain, especially as the GM. I could deal with players typing if that's preferred so long as they could type fast.

All audio for players too has the side benefit of session recordings which can be played back at higher speeds to take note of the important events for future sessions.

If people are interested could make a discord and we could iron out the details, tomorrow perhaps?

To clarify, I've been GMing since 2000, was a foreverGM for a long while, spent several years GMing 1 campaign out of 4 concurrent campaigns with a group, and am now living across the country without a game (but I'm fine with that, I'll be moving back soon enough).

But I could use some extra cash, and I can GM.how is this done, and is there a demand for it?

I'm off to sleep. Will check this 8-9h

Well, I live in Bumfuck, Somewhere and there are quite a few players around, but they either have no time to get together and actually play, or they refuse to play anything that isn't their firmly entrenched D&D/TDE/SR/WoD campaign.

This is a find new friends or look online scenario, for sure.

So... Would you suggest a commissions sheet, like artists make?

My only other options friend-wise are people who would rather literally stand around doing nothing than engage in an activity they don't know. And I have only had bad experiences with online games.

For a commissions sheet, you'd need some way to comprehensively communicate what you are good at running. An artist has the advantage of having a number of previous works for potential customers to have a look at, but that doesn't work for GMing.

Yeah, not until there are reviews of some sort. Fair enough.

Still. I'll think on it and see what I come up with. I suspect I'll start out simple and expand as I get more familiar with online gaming.

Keep in mind that people are generally terrible at analyzing and communicating what they like or dislike about any given thing.
Even when you do get reviews, you have to communicate that stuff yourself.

As a Forever GM who runs games for three different groups a week. I'd never charge for it under any circumstances because this is an enjoyable hobby but also very niche and hard for people to get into, it doesn't need even more gates barring the way to entry than it already has.

I take requests. But that's because I own everything, have multiple groups, and am very open minded with my gaming preferences. I wish I had players passionate enough about a type of game to tell me they want it.

>1. How do you feel about a Pay-to-Play game of DnD?

If the P2P DM offered a free trial session, sure. Don't want to spend money on That DM

>2. Would any of you consider playing in a P2P game of DND?
Yes

>3. What would it take from the GM/Storyteller to make it worth it to you?

Professionalism with regards to preparation, having the necessary materials.

Hopefully the players can also be reasonably professional with regards to things like being on time and not being spergs.

>Free Session
That's fair. Or, like, free access to an audio recording of one of his sessions, as a sort of "portfolio".

If the players are paying for it, they may take the "appointment" more seriously.

Very fair point.

I might do it, if people offered me a reasonable wage. A reasonable wage being about $14 an hour (I might end up charging 15 per person per session to make it a nice, even number). I would find it hard to give a fuck, however, and would probably just run pre-mades where I let the players run amok and do whatever the fuck they want, without shutting down whatever "clever plays" they want to pull. It would suck ass for me, since you can hardly say no to the people who pay your salary, but I guess it wouldn't be any worse than any other job.

I wouldn't recommend giving it a go until you are very comfortable with the online format. I also wouldn't recommend trying to rope people in until you have a solid idea. I actually disagree with the people who think the flexibility to run whatever system is the way to go, I think you should run which ever system you are most comfortable with and are confident in creating new content in. I've found after watching my P2P GM in action that letting people know exactly what you plan to provide is key. He oft didn't live up to what he claimed to provide. This way your 'brand' is clear, and people who don't want to play long term in such a game are aware upfront this is the case.

As I've been thinking about the profession for a long time now, my thought is to actually run the whole first dungeon/mission likely nearly 5-6 sessions. With the many groups I've been in I think it takes character creation and about that long to find out if the group works and if there are any problem people.

This would certainly be a problem for some. My last GM handled it by being very clear he was still in charge as the GM, but then also being very charismatic when situations arose. Honestly his charisma is what kept the games going for so long. I personally am not attached to what I have created like some DMs so I don't mind how different it will become, in fact I relish in players doing those kinds of things.

Yeah, I am the same way, generally I sandbox with a good idea of what happens if the PCs do nothing, and then improvise based on whatever they decide to do.

Assuming I'm not running from a book, that is.

Right know I would not pay to play, but that's mostly because I can't justify spending the expendable income I do have on something that has little or no guarantee of return. If it's online, they can just disappear into the ether, in person I'd be more willing to fork over money. I would never pay someone to GM without at least a couple months to see if it's a game I would enjoy. In addition I would expect to see how the GM was spending the money to improve the game. Such as buying token packs on roll20 or some other platform, or if in person buying tokens to use. I'm not just going to hand money to a GM who doesn't use at least some of that money to support his/her own game.

>The money is to be spent on the game, not kept.

The reason there are so few GMs is most people don't find GMing very fun.

The money is because they are providing you a service, and taking requests. They're charging you for their time.

Time spent doing campaign design, and making maps, and all that stuff, In addition to time spent running the game.

GMing is not fun, it's work. The only part that's really fun is watching the players come up with plans you hadn't anticipated, and a bunch of stuff that would be way more fun as a player.

If I'm not GMing for you because we're friends, it's a job.

And that's why there are many people without a gm.

I actually like running games so I'd never subscribe to such a service. But if I was to I'd expect super high quality custom adventures and a solid group, but I think at that point you'd only have hardcore super grognards rather than a fun more chill casual crowd

Such a service would mostly cater to people who don't have a group, I imagine. ForeverGMs, Autists, Grogs, and Gamers in Remote Locations. 5hats most of 5he 'customerbase'.

People who already have a campaign they're happy with, or who are happy GMing instead of playing? Not so much.

I GM myself, so wouldn't pay regularly, but maybe a session with some amazing GM to learn a few tricks.

More generally though, I think the model should prolly resemble stand-up comedy or other performances. You aren't making a living on one night a week, you'll have to work multiple groups. Nobody will ever pay for prep either when there's quick peppers or good asspullers who can do that for free. Only the actual performance matters to the customer, it's up to you to resolve costs. That said, expectations of goofy custom campaigns aren't feasible either. A performer banks on coming up with solid routines and I'm not running Pathfinder when prep is easier for literally anything else.

Pay-to-play is absolute trash and should be avoided at all costs.

If you're willing to pay someone to GM, wouldn't one just use their money to buy the books, get a group together, and run the damn games themselves?

>Implying that to the vast majority of people running is anywhere near as fun and rewarding as playing.

Playing and running are entirely different things.

I often run games, and play them. But you're limited by what other people feel like running. As in, there are a ton of things I want to play, that none of my other friends who GM are ever going to run.

I would absolutely pay a competent GM to run a campaign/world/base premise sandbox game of my choice, if they were actually familiar with the material.

I can run the games I wish I could play. That is by no means the same thing.

>Nobody will pay for prep.
Not directly, no. You would have to work your prep time into your pricing.

>Quickprep and asspull
>Good
Eh. Someone who is really good at that can manage a mediocre game with minimal prep. Been doing a lot of gaming since 2000, and never have I seen a GM do a genuinely good job without proper prepwork.

Yeah, if I was to run Pathfinder for p2p it would have to be an adventure path, or it would not be cheap.

>1. How do you feel about a Pay-to-Play game of DnD?

Whatever floats everybody's collective boat, as long as everybody feels they are getting their money's worth.

>2. Would any of you consider playing in a P2P game of DND?

I would, yes. I've paid to go to conventions just to find people to play with, after all.

>3. What would it take from the GM/Storyteller to make it worth it to you?

Being a GM myself, I've discovered that being a good GM means you are kind of like a game designer, in a certain sense. Sure all the rules and environment have already been written out for you, but you have to still be a good judge in rule interpretation and keeping things consistent and fair. That, and above all else, make the damn game just be FUN even if you have to break those rules. Those are the two big things I find sorely lacking in a lot of random GMs I find online.

>For sake of argument let's say the price was $30/month with 16 hours of game time (4x 4hr sessions/month)

Sounds like a fair price to me, provided we actually got shit done in each 4 hour session. As opposed to 4 hour sessions of just randomly dicking around in town and not really getting anything accomplished - least of all the plot hook or quest the DM actually had in mind. I've actually been in games like that.

Now, I'm biased because I work a steady job and have money. 30 bucks a month is affordable to me.

>3. What would it take from the GM/Storyteller to make it worth it to you?

Regular under-the-table blowjobs from their teenage daughters.

>$30 a month.
Psssht.

Maybe if there were 8 players.

$25 a week, maybe (assuming you expect prep work). If I'm running an adventure path, $15 a week.

It's occurring to me that this may have to do with different wages and cost of living in different places. Here, $12 is a single fast food lunch.

...

Fast food costs half that maybe even less depending on what you get where I am.

American I assume.

Went there on vacation once. Crazy cheap food, with massive portion sizes.

Yep, American. Though in a rural as fuck part of it, more guns than people by at LEAST a factor of five.

Leaf here.

Canada has expensive everything.

Not so bad for burger tourists when our dollar is weak like right now though.