Starfleet has Section 31

Section 31 named itself after the article, but it doesn't exist by virtue of that article - it existed before the Federation did, after all (RE: Enterprise).

Starfleet Intelligence is the actual intelligence arm of Starfleet.

There was no reason for them to create Section 31 when Starfleet Intelligence was already repeatedly shown to be doing shifty spook shit constantly

Fuck the DS9 writers

I think Klingons would be alright with assassination, I mean a lot of them don't have a problem with lurking in cloaked warships to ambush lone enemies. I'm sure they'd prefer direct methods of assassinating someone like a sudden attack with blades or disruptors, rather than slow-acting poison or vapourizing someone in their sleep, but Klingons seem to be able to find ways to get shit done when they have to.

I would like to see a Star Trek TV show based off Starfleet Intelligence, or better yet, section 31.

So starfleet intelligence = CIA
Section 31 = Special activities decision.

No.

Starfleet Intelligence = Military Intelligence Corps
Section 31 = An entire organization of Timothy McVeighs and Lee Harvey Oswalds

It's an unimportant one, hence it comes up so rarely. Klingons have that whole proud warrior culture thing going on so they hide all the underhanded things they do due to the stigma. They don't go around advertizing that their super cool spy agency got them all this fancy intel. They just present it as stuff they know and dismiss their sources. You could argue that every time klingons show up bein all "we happened to be in the area" they're acting on intel. It's just their excuse to save face.

Mean while the cardassians and romulans have a massive boner for espionage and subterfuge so it comes up a lot more whenever they're around. They love being smug about that shit and implying how awesome their spies are.

Basically klingon spies are a necessary shame every klingon pretends doesn't exist. You could argue that is what makes them so good. Nobody expects it.

Theyre like the Chinese spy agency.
If people know you exist then you aren't good at your job.

every klingon is a klingon secret agent and think they are the only klingon secret agent

including worf

...

What did Section 31 ever do that was so bad?

I think it was just be the usual covert ops behind the scenes stuff thats nasty but important for maintaining galactic peace

Section 31 is outright stated that their goal is to preserve the Federation at all costs. Their methods are shifty at best, illegal at worst. However, some fanwriters have decided to make them the galactic boogymen, out to destroy the Federation. It's bad writing that's been taken for canon material.

I'd like to point out that Section 31 is the intelligence arm of the Federation while Starfleet Intelligence is the intelligence arm of Starfleet.
and no, Starfleet and the Federation are not the same thing.

We have had this thread many times.

Tried to wipe out the entire Changling race?

They started it and had used bio weapons on civilian targets before so that bioweapon was completely justified.

One of the older Star Trek video games based on Starfleet Battles made references to the Klingon Black Fleet. Not sure how canon that should be regarded, but they have to have SOMETHING.

>Special activities decision

That's SAD.

So they're essentially Cerberus from ME, to use an example

>Klingon
>"Intelligence"
To be fair, said assumption probably has a LOT to do with it.

Was that really so bad? They may have saved the whole Alpha quadrant.

Given ME's roots, Cerberus was probably directly inspired by them/ripped off from them

To be specific, they named themselves after an article that they felt implied that something like them might not be totally illegal.

It's basically like a violent militia naming themselves "Second Amendment Group."

What you have to understand about Klingons is they're a hardcore warrior race who values honor, but also has no problem with sneak attack.

Their intelligence agency has to be the MOST hardcore shit. No compunctions, no morals, no limits. Their very existence is a paradox, the ultimate honor/dishonor. It's likely composed of individual agents or small cells all reporting to other agents or cells who in turn report to other agents cells etc ad infinitum, an unending self perpetuating clusterfuck that works against itself as much as with as you have elements trying to restore the old klingon empire and elements trying to promote Klingon alliance with star fleet, both believing it's what is best for the race, and both wholly ignorant of the others. This is fine for the Klingons, because struggle makes them strong, so assuredly whoever wins in these bizarre shadow wars is the strongest and therefore their way is best for the Klingon people.

I think the shades of gray are important here. Organizations are not just "good guys" or "bad guys." Starfleet Intelligence is more morally ambiguous than Starfleet in general, and Sec 31 is where people go when they're too conspiracy-crazy I-swear-I-killed-those-babies-for-good-reasons for Starfleet Intelligence. Starfleet Intelligence occasionally does something bad, and should be monitored and held accountable to limit that sort of behavior. Sec 31 should be closed down entirely.

The thing about "I did what had to be done" types is that they're usually wrong. You know, killing someone in self defense after repeatedly escalating a fight with them and fantasizing for years about having to kill someone in self defense.

For how long? The entire point of the Federation is to realize the possibility of galactic unity among disparate groups of sentient races and populations. The Federation is about walking up the hill instead of merely going around it because what lies on the hilltop might be an achievement greater than anyone ever imagined. But simply going around and nuking sentient races out of existence for convenience sake is Terran Empire tier.

If you wanted a more practical reason though, there are even greater and more violent threats throughout space/time and the Federation needs to nurture relationships instead of eliminating relationships as a defense mechanism to help mitigate losses and increase the chances for survival. I mean, Klingons balance out the Romulans, Klingons were the first to get blown up by Vger, a Klingon fleet got blown up by the angry space prison elfmen which tipped off the Federation, Klingons were constantly instrumental in the Dominion War, and Klingons have helped many of the Federation's military developments throughout their long history. Clearly, Klingons are beneficial to the Federation's existence in the Alpha Quadrant.

I'm talking from a narrative standpoint

Starfleet Intelligence did shady, unscrupulous things and in turn were exposed, berated and punished for them because future humanity is morally resilient enough to not take the low road

Section 31 exists because the writers of DS9 literally believed that the Federation could not logically exist without a malicious, impossibly covert gestapo helping it

Section 31 isn't just bad from an in-universe view, which it obviously is, it's one of the earlier steps in what moved Star Trek from a series of 45 minute ethic debates into a shitty Battlestar Galactica styled Ray-gun pew-pew action show and then further into a series of Transformers movie clones.

In essence, Section 31 represents a dissonance between Roddenberry's original vision and more modern writers perceptions yes. I'm not going to say that crazy clusterfuck of a person was a god of writing, but it is disingenuous for later script writers to basically shit all over what he intended for the series. This started to occur almost immediately after his death though - sometimes for good, sometimes for bad.

Depends on your philosophy, but with Star trek being so optimistic it's not going to sit well in that franchises morality.

I remember TNG had a group of super smart people that they would put together and came up with crazy projects. If they had made some incredible thing that helped them win, I'd be fine with it.

To be honest, I think reminding people that Roddenberry served in the military would soften their view on him and the show. That it's based on Bombers where everyone has to be trained to a high level, that you can't really afford to sacrifice anyone, would help.

Military Service innit gonna soften my views on a rapist user

They have 3, actually.

1 that deals with conventional spying. That's Klingon intelligence

the second is house Pegh, which focuses on sabotaging and undermining threats to make them fair fights for the rest of the Klingon Empire.

The Third never states its name directly, but focuses solely on time travel. Klingons have had Time Travel tech for almost as long as they've had warp engines. They immediately recognized that "THIS IS A STUPID IDEA AND SHOULD NEVER BE USED." Their mandate is to prevent anyone else using temporal manipulation to alter their version of history or negatively impact the empire. They actively suppress knowledge of time travel technology and propagate the meme that it is impossible. They're aware of the temporal Cold War and use all their power and influence to keep the Empire a neutral non-entity in that conflict.

Biological warfare, IIRC.

Things to remember about Klingon ship design philosophy:
1) They have cloaking tech
2) They epitomise "cheap, easy to maintain, and by the hundred" over other options
3) They don't need much in the way of creature comforts over long missions
4) They shown some decent ability to hack comms in the past.

Whose to say there isn't one cloaked warbird in every star system, constantly listening in for interesting "weaknesses"? Klingons talk about Honor alot, but the fundamental paradox behind their species is they like winning through sneaky tactics and then calling the other guy weak for not expecting it.

Remember, they never invented cloaking devices. Or disruptors. Or warp drive. When they were in their Iron age, they got invaded by another race that had all those things. But they won, wiped out the invaders, and reverse-engineered the tech. They skipped their entire Industrial Revolution and Space Age.

And game!

the same race that sold that shit to the ferengi.