Stannis Baratheon

King Stannis the Stern ruled Westeros with wise council. He was neither mad, fat, or cruel. Wildfire may have burned his fleet, but with sword he still took King's Landing and sent a wounded lion back west. Then the lords bent the knee. Those who didn't would.
When the Dragon Queen came he smashed her barbarian horde driving them back into the sea. Her dragons ill trained fled from the rain arrows laid down by the Rivermen. She bent the knee as all did. The Red Witch annulled the King's marriage and presided over his second.
When the others climbed the wall they met dragon fire and a well drilled military. Dragonstone had been mined and obsidian tipped every lance and arrow.
He annihilated the Iron Fleet, tore Pike apart brick by brick, and burned the drowned king.
Sure he had to default on the Iron Bank, but then he sacked it.
Every rich lordling in the land came for his daughter's scaled hand, instead he tied his house to the Starks for the debt he owed their father.
For thirty years he ruled. When he was old and grey a chill took him. He'd brought the true faith, guarded the realm, filled the coffers, and the law stood strong under him. His son, Stannis Baratheon second of his name, succeeded him. Stag and Dragon ruled for another 200 years.

kek

My heart be still.

Well, Renly wasn't wrong about his brother. Nobody wants him as a king. His rule would be 'correct' by the laws that be, but horribly rigid to the point of grimness. Think Judge Dredd's Mecacity. People, even when good and well meaning, would die over small mistakes. The Wall would see many of its castles filled with soldiers, and the royalty would be forced into frugality in order to pay back the Iron Bank. That's how I'd see it, at least.

Stannis fanboy detected.

My blade is pledged to Stannis, but even I know even if he's not going to have the same retarded downfall arc from GoT, he's definitely not getting the throne. BookStannis is, objectively, the best guy for the job, but Martin isn't going to just hand the throne off to a non-PoV character. Best case scenario, he puts aside his white-hot entitlement to the throne (unlikely), takes the Black, and settles with defending the realm over ruling it.

Remember. George R.R. Martin doesn't write cliches. So the thought of Jon or Daenerys taking the thrones is nil. It's him who's going to take the throne as most fantasy books he critiques is always about how the young people who have no idea of ruling are kings or queens.

>Renly wasn't wrong about his brother. Nobody wants him as a king. His rule would be 'correct' by the laws that be
With the Onion Knight as Hand I don't think it would be that bad. He'd also appoint people who were actually useful to high positions rather than fill them with ignorant yes men. So a short Lannister may still end up as Master of Coin.
>Wall would see many of its castles filled with soldiers
Fucking needs to be.
>forced into frugality in order to pay back the Iron Bank
There are a few ways that could play out. (Stannis's court would seem spartan compared to others anyway.) Either he'd take the Lannister gold and pay back the loans. Or more likely he'd be forced to default and have to fight a war with the Iron Bank. Which could end well with taking their money, or badly with Westeros being divided and sold off.

I can't help liking the best.

Stannis lacks charisma. Without charisma, he cannot win the good faith of anybody. His actions would come off as cold, robotic, and uncaring. The people of Westeros would be too stupid to appreciate his governance and will eventually rally behind a populist figure who aims to overthrow him.

STANNIS THE MANNIS

Clearly, you haven't heard of Ramsay's twenty good men

Isn't he the Blood King

But thats the point of their plot developments. Jon learned how to run a military organization of cockgobblers from scratch against all odds, while Daenerys learned how to stop being a political tool and to be a political player instead. The world itself is grooming the two for governance roles. They're not perfect by any means, but they've come quite far from where they first started.

The real kicker would be if Dany ends up as the insane tyrant by the end of everything.

She is heading there.

The Others will just kill everbody because everobody else has failed to prepare for the coming invasion.

>With the Onion Knight as Hand
It's been a while since I read the books but isn't Onion Knight dead?
I faintly remember there was something.

Nah he's in the north trying to win lords to Stannis's side.

The Manderly killed him to curry favor for house Bolton

Yep. The Mandeeley's are absolutely loyal to the Boltons, Freys, and Lannisters. And even if they weren't just happy to see stability in Westwood again, Ser Wyman is too dim and cowardly to do anything about it.

...

If Ned Stark had lived and sided with Stannis. How different would the outcome be?

Yes, the Onion Knight was slain by the brave Manderly family for defying the honorable house Bolton. Truly they are loyal servants to the crown and nothing more.

lies

we need a house creation thread, it had been so long

>It is also his position by right
How much that really matter? Robert's claim to the throne was almost entirely earned through military force when he rebelled against the already "rightful" rulers; sure they had some relation to the Targs to help justify things but that was more of an afterthought in the grand scheme of it all. Not to mention THEIR claim to the throne came about from them invading and taking over Westeros in Aegon's days. Conquest is ultimately the true royal decider.

Would the setting make more sense if the Targareyns named themselves emperors of Westeros instead of Kings?

But he died, he can't be the king anymore

He didn't die in the books.

Stannis as we see him in the Winds of Winter extracts could actually be a great king. He's still got the positive qualities he started out with, but has learnt some compromise to keep the disparate factions of his host together. The main issue, other than potentially being murdered early on in his reign for purging the court of traitors and incompetents would be that he'd be the first Red God worshipping king, with the burning of religious forests that entails. He'd be hated for that, even though R'hllor actually does stuff and is demonstrably supernatural, and therefore useful.

Are you sure? I am reading the Game of Thrones: Adapted from the popular TV series

This has to be bait

>Knowing something isn't quite right on the eve of Robert's death, Ned tells his bannermen to keep on their toes and form up separate from the goldcloaks as he enters the throne room
>When the predictable betrayal occurs, superior Northern steel wins the day, and Ned Stark takes the throne room by force, imprisoning all who survive the violence
>King's Landing suffers a period of anarchy, as the Starks are too few in number to take charge of the city from the remaining goldcloaks and must seal themselves in the keep to await help
>Ravens reach the chambers of Robb Stark and Stannis Baratheon, informing them of the deteriorating situation in King's Landing. The two lords gather their banners and march south.
>Tywin Lannister learns of the situation as well, and realizes that his only chance to establish control is to capture King's Landing before the other forces arrive
>The Lannister forces reach King's Landing first, taking the city streets and besieging the Keep.
>The remaining Starks are too few in number to win the battle, but Tywin knows he will have trouble consolidating his power without the "King," and stalls for as much time as possible
>On the march south, Stannis' forces are met by an unexpected road block. What they thought were reinforcements from the true King's younger brother are actually an opposing force
>As Stannis knows he has more allies coming from the North, he elects not to use the Red Witch's magic to assassinate his brother, and meets him on the battlefield instead
>The battle draws on far longer than anyone could have anticipated, likely due to the suspicious increase in funding Renly has been enjoying to supplement his banners with mercenaries
>For weeks the two armies clash and withdraw on the same field, the struggling wills of the two brothers manifesting itself in the seemingly endless tenacity by which they throw their forces at one another.

[more things happen too but im done]

GRRM does writes cliches. He is just good in hiding them. The number of PoV characters in his story is there to disguise the fact that there are clear cut protagonists from the beginning.

They are both underdogs who goes through a coming of age journey, and also the classic heroes Journey. They are both linked by blood to Old Valyria and dragons, which GRRM has a huge boner for. While every other character is the book died for their political or strategical mistakes, Danerys and Jon survive and thrive. Fair to say, Jon got killed, but only as a covenient loop hole to be dismissed from the nightwatch without being disohonorable. Melisandre is a walking Deus Ex Machina.

Stannis is good for the Kingdom, he is what the kingdom needs really, a leader that will enforce the law of the land and that will have little tolerance for the underhanded petty politics that lead to the civil war in the first place. He is capable of using underhand himself, like he did with his brother and to take storm's end, but only when he believe it's the best for the kingdom as a whole. And that's how we know he's never gonna sit on the throne.

she's better in the books desu

[Bending the Knee Intensifies]

She did drop in the middle of a region whole most important economic activity was slavery and then, before having an army, decided to end it. She became queen of a city whose culture she wouldn't understand, and that led to one bloodbath after another, on both sides. It's also stated that the cities she 'freed' didn't end up well. One returned to the slaver's hand following a bloody civil conflict and the other was taken over by a former gladiator warlord.

Then, according to the show, she massacred the leader of the dothraki so now you have this girl who see her worldview and beliefs as being the most important thing ever, worth thousand of lives, in charge of a murder-raping horde of mongols.

If Daenerys doesn't turn into a tyrant, I'd be surprised.

>superior Northern steel

One Northman is worth ten Southenmen

...

Rebellion was probably rightful and just thing.

Most of medieval kingdoms had some "right to rebel"(ius resistendi) against unjust king(Mad king definitely fits) that lost god's blessing and so right to rule.
It even made way into the US constitution I think.
If my memory serves me right it was first described by saint Thomas Aquinas in his "De regno".

He'd honestly be a pretty unpopular king.
Not because he's not personable, but because he's no inflexible about so many things that the grey areas and vagueries of ruling wouldn't jive with him. People would run circles around him politically (because he doesn't have a subtle bone in his body), but if he ever discovered them then he'd smash them with an army and make himself even MORE unpopular.

Stannis doesn't seem to grasp the basic rule of all politics; rules are not there for politicians to follow, they're there to find as many ways to bend or go around without getting caught as they can possibly get away with.

>Most of medieval kingdoms had some "right to rebel"
>It even made way into the US constitution I think.
>it was first described by saint Thomas Aquinas in his "De Regno".
None of those looks like they say "Westeros".

The debate itself is whatever, not my cup of tea but some people enjoy it, so let them have their fun I guess, but it seems like the argument should focus on things actually known to be in the lore.

Kinda?
In the books it's made very apperant that is is well-meaning, but unfortunately doesn't have a single example in her entire short life of what a "good" (or even competent) ruler actually looks like and nobody around her is willing to teach her without manipulating her to their ends.
So she just wings it as she goes and predictably it ends up horrible because she didn't have the learning or the guidance.

She's an incredibly charismatic leader in the sense that it's easy for her to gather people to her side and adore her at a near-worshipful level, but being a leader isn't the same thing as being an actually good ruler...and she definitely isn't one.

>but unfortunately doesn't have a single example in her entire short life of what a "good" (or even competent) ruler actually looks like
Like that time she freed a bunch of slaves only for them to be trapped in a city being hunted every night with their only employment prospects being to continue working for her?

Hodor would be a better fuckin' ruler.

Westeros has no constitution, so the letter of the law seems to really just be whatever you can get away with.
This is especially true because it has no actual feudal heirarchy; without a system of Dukes and Counts and Marquis and what-have-you, technically every Lord in Westeros that isn't the King or a Lord Paramount is legally the equal of every other Lord despite massive differences in practical position and power between many houses.

This is probably why there's so much infighting in a small scale in the country; since you have legal authority to control whatever you can manage to hold rather then a specific something allotted to you by your specific aristocratic title the political situation between the different lords is basically just a free-for-all under a thin veneer of politeness.

Mannis as the iron king, the onion knight as his velvet glove. It would be a dull, boring, lawful, extremely stable reign.

He could, if someone did not fuck his timeline

See, that was a much more convincing argument. As someone who reads the books and doesn't really care whose ass is on the chair at the end I lied, no Dany please[/spoilers] That's a pretty convincing argument.

>that spoiler
Just fucking kill me now, lord

In other words, he would be the fairest, wisest, most successful king in 500 years.

Exactly.
Dany has the POTENTIAL to be a good ruler (she's clearly willing to actively listen to supplicants and clearly tries very hard to be "fair"), but she has almost no sense for politics or political consequences because she equates "doing the right thing" with "being a good ruler", when in fact ruling is much more complicated then that.

Jon is actually turning out to be a better ruler (his decisions since becoming Lord Commander are smart and rational ones, but there's enough retards on the Wall that "ice zombie apocalypse takes precedence over fighting Stone Age barbarians" isn't a plain enough fact for them) but much like his dad he definitely lacks in charisma compared to others; he can rule but not LEAD, while Dany can lead but not RULE.

Reminder that there won't be iron throne at the end, and there probably won't be dragons either.

No, actually.
Read the timeline. There's no less then four examples of Targs like that and they're basically failures because real life isn't painted in shades of black and white.

He'd honestly make a better fucking Ironborn King because then his social laws are reduced to the binary decision of "Rape and Pillage" or "Do Not Rape and Pillage" and their entire culture is actually okay with that.

Robert was blood-related to the Targaryens.

I'd say there's no doubt whatsoever that the rebellion was pretty much an objectively right thing to do and best option for Westeros, but if anything your examples just stress how arbitrary the idea of a "rightful" ruler can be.

Even characters in the book say that the reason Robert's ass was on the iron throne wasn't because of his Targ blood. Ned or Jon Arryn could be kings as well, if they wished.

This is accurate.
His grandmother was a Targaryen (one of Egg's daughters as a point of fact) and if you go far back enough old Orys Baratheon himself was probably a bastard half-brother to Aegon the Conqueror, though neither ever openly acknowledged it.

Right to rule underlies the legitimacy of any regime and precludes constant murderfests. If you want to see what happens when an Empire has no system of succession, look at the decline of Rome.

Really, Robert did have a claim, but he would have been better-served to dissolve the kingdom entirely and make a new one in its place, arguing that the Dragon was dead and the savagery of the last Dragon King invalidated his rule.

She's "better in the books" in that she's much more obviously becoming a bad guy and the writer isn't making excuses for her atrocities and acting like they're all a-okay!

But every other character is also much more flawed. Jon brought the mutiny upon himself because of his rigidness, it wasn't because "muh racism", and Tyrion murdered Shae unprovoked and fantasized about raping and murdering Cersei, repeatedly.

First of all, the only excuses Gurm has ever given for anything is why he hasn't written more.
He's never bothered defending Dany and the ENTIRE storyline with her in the last book is everything she supposedly "accomplished" completely fucking falling apart, so clearly she's not winning or doing so great.

Actually, ADWD was mostly just the "yes, shit CAN get worse for Dany, Jon, Asha, and Tyrion" book.

he had the Lannister incest gene

Dany's judgement is awful, and her ability to evaluate a person's character is worse i(EVERYTHING with Ben Plumm, who Tyrion pegged as a rat bastard within one sentence of speaking to him is a good example, not to mention her "husband" guy), and last but not least her truly atrocious temper problems.

She's a teenager with no idea how to rule and it shows in the actual writing.

That's not true. The whole book, Dany was a succesful ruler - she arranged an important marriage, stopped Harpy's terrorism and nearly made peace with the people of Meereen - all with little sacrifices.
However, in the very end she decides "Wait, no, fuck it. Compromise and diplomacy are too hard - fire and blood!", and that's the real tragedy here. She decides that becoming a ruthless tyrant is more satisfying, so she does it.

So they marry, split duties, place a representative council of those who have proven themselves competent advisors from their loyalist factions, absorb any desirable elements of the old government that can be swayed by "you keep your old job, just answer to a different boss" and boom.

>she arranged an important marriage
To the guy leading the Sons of the Harpy, not realizing he led the Sons of the Harpy, and not questioning when he came out of nowhere to save the day.
>stopped Harpy's terrorism
By marrying their leader.
>and nearly made peace with the people of Meereen
By marrying the guy who was leading the group they supported.

Dany was in an impossible situation of completely her own making, but yeah; her decisions were complete horseshit. Hizdar-lo...fuck I hate Ghiscari names, LITERALLY tried to poison her at their wedding and then undid everything she did the goddamn minute she seemed to die.

Are you incapable of reading subtext?

She doesn't even "do the right thing" half the time. She does a lot of horrible things because she's angry.
The only reason she doesn't just look like another Joffrey or Mad King Aerys to us is because we're in her head and can understand her justifications for shit like genocide or crucifying dozens and dozens of people

>M-my knees are bending on their own, Stannis-kun

Pretty much.
Also, I suspect that they will NOT like each other during the course of the books, based on the prophecy she got about three husbands.
Gurm has mentioned he dislikes straightforward happy endings (in a way Robert's entire background is about showing how stories don't just "end" when they reach and appropriate climax and you have to deal with the afterwords too), so I think Jon and Dany will marry largely out of political necessity.

The hopeful spot will be pointed out that Ned and Cat also didn't love each other at first either, but over the years eventually grew to.

Neither of which hold a candle to the horrors Dany has committed: genocide, murder, crucifixion, torture. She's Mad King 2.0, now with DRAGONS instead of just wildfire.

Pretty much. She's a teenager and it shows, and she has a temper and that shows even more.
Ironically, I think if Barristan grew a fucking pair and just acted as an actual advisor instead of habitually running away from politics (which according to himself is a serious problem he's had his entire life) she'd be a lot more successful, but Selmy offers advise ONLY when promoted and even then he kinda seems uncomfortable with it.
In his mind he should just be a Kingsguard and nothing else.

Dany should have just had all the nobility of Mereen executed. They seem to work a lot like the native Emirati: a purely consumer class of durkas.

If CK2 has taught me anything marriage is about picking complementary traits and hoping for a good son while being limited to gene pools you have conflict with in order to create stable relations.

>To the guy leading the Sons of the Harpy
No, you retard, he's probably not even the member of the Sons.
>By marrying their leader.
That would be pretty hard, since their leader is Galazza Galare. Essos is not THIS progressive.
>By marrying the guy who was leading the group they supported.
When you're ruling and opressing foreign people with your culture, you either have to be absolutely ruthless, or you have to make compromises like this.
>Poison
That was not Hizdahr, that was Skahaz mo Kandaq. He did it because he did not like the arranged peace, it threatened his position and rise to power.

Are YOU incapable of reading subtext?

>Tyrion murdered Shae unprovoked
She cucked him with his dad, if I remember correctly, plus she lied about him at his trial.

No, Aerys was actually insane.
Read the world book. Serious case of bipolar disorder later combined with severe paranoid delusions, some of which MIGHT have been exacerbated by Varys in what seems to be the longest long con of all time so far.

Dany is just a child, and that's the problem. I imagine you did some dumb shit you regretted later as a teenager too assuming you had even a remotely normal childhood of course?
Now imagine your dumb shit teenager mistakes is actual law because you're a ruler and you see how the consequences to everything she does get do wildly out of hand.

That's why Maester Aemon told Jon to "kill the boy", like he told Egg once upon a time; you CANNOT be a child when you are being a ruler. There's too much at stake and too many consequences to it. Dany herself has never had that explained to her.

Which makes it understandable, but not right. And let's not forget about this whole prostitute thing, since Tyrion essentially bought her love with money.

He'd have a clear vision of where everything is headed.

That wouldn't really have solved her problem of a nonexistent economic base and trying to run a culture that doesn't want her. What she SHOULD have done is taken the Unsullied and fight her way clear of Ghis and then fucking LEFT.

Or better yet; taken the Dornish offer to head home, but nope, she REALLY wanted to keep playing messiah.

Here's what she really needed.
>Get unsullied
>March to Yunkaii
>When they offer her a shitton of gold just so she would not siege the city, accept
>Buy ships
>Swim to Pentos, reunite with Illyrio
With unsullied, dragons and the golden company all combined, she would be literally unstoppable.

Ramsays letter to Snow says otherwise. Likely, his twenty good men killed him and massacred his army.

Ramsay is a liar

>Implying the pink letter was written by Ramsay
It's pretty much common knowledge that it was Mance Rayder who wrote it.

I was more talking about the "unprovoked" term than whether or not he was right. He was wrong, but he was provoked as fuck.

She really would, though there's the problem of Connington's slighted pride; he basically convinced Young Griff NOT to go with Dany partially because he hated the idea of his plan that he'd been working with on for last 19 years to avenge the guy he had a raging homolust for being ruined by Dany showing up with dragons out of freaking nowhere. Young Griff likely didn't take much convincing mind you, as he seemed pretty annoyed about the whole thing himself.

That said, going back to Illyrio and getting the Golden Company wouldn't really be on Dany's agenda because she didn't know about that plan and only knew Illyrio as "he literally sold me once".

Oh come on.
Are you the type of reader that thinks Victarion Greyjoy is intelligent just because he doesn't think of himself as an idiot in his own chapters?

>Victarion.
That guy is as dumb as a fencepost.
It's really something else when this fucking comic is in no way exaggerating what happens and how he reacts to shit.

It was a business exchange, and Tyrion was more than generous with her.

She repaid his largesse by lying under oath with the understanding that this would lead to his murder, all to pull a bigger paycheck from a more important Lannister. She got exactly what she deserved.

>t. /r9k/ poster

>Business exchange
>No legally binding Contract
>Got a better offer and took it
I don't think you get how this shit works my dude

Finally! I have been waiting ages for the greatest of houses in the Reach to get their week. The true lords of Highgarden that continue the struggle to depose the Tyrell pretenders, and the most loyal of houses to the one true king of Westeros, Stannis Baratheon.

I feel it best to highlight the awesomeness of this house by detailing its many distinguished members.

Selyse Florent: The One True Queen of Westeros, the lovely Selyse is a devoutly religious woman of the strongest moral standing. Unlike every other woman calling herself "Queen" in Westeros, she alone isn't being tried for being a whore.

Axell Florent: A MAN OF THE WORLD and the Hand to the One True Queen of Westeros. Axell is a noble and dependable man that is loved and envied by all around him. Currently betrothed to the oldest daughter of Gerrick Kingsblood, thus giving him royal ties to the Wildlings as well.

Imry Florent: Bravely led Stannis's fleet into the Battle of the Blackwater. Surely died early in the fight due to treachery, because all agree the outcome would have been far different otherwise.

Alester Florent: He temporarily lost the faith, and to repent, he willingly allowed himself to be burnt alive in order to provide Stannis's fleet with strong winds to reach the Wall in time and stop Mance Rayder. The NW and the entire realm is in his eternal debt.

Colin Florent: After the Battle of the Blackwater, the illborn pretender to the throne Joffrey claimed that House Florent was "attainted" and had the audacity to name Garlan Tyrell as Lord of Brightwater Keep. Well, three books later and pompous sellout opportunist jerkoff Garlan has yet to set foot in Brightwater Keep, because Colin Florent has been holding it down like a BOSS. Keep in mind that he is literally surrounded by enemies on all sides. Let them come, his sword THIRSTS.

Alekyne Florent: Current Lord of Brightwater Keep, Alekyne is currently in Old Town, plotting his next move with the Hightowers. Make no mistake, he isn't "hiding," he is "planning" something. Planning something big. Do not underestimate the cunning of the fox!

Samwell Tarly: Literally every one of his positive attributes come from his Florent blood. I here he's a pretty smart cookie.

Melessa Tarly: A loving mother stuck with a douche of a husband. Sam is convinced that he can send Gilly and her baby to his home and they will be cared for, solely due to his mother. Given who his father is, that speaks volumes as to how awesome Melessa is.

Edric Storm: A fine young lad, eternally noble and proud. Showed eternal respect and love towards his father, even though his father was a prick that didn't care about him at all.

Shireen Baratheon: The heir to the throne, Princess Shireen is pure innocence and a true delight for the realm.

The nameless Florent bastard that refused to bend his knee to Joffrey after the Battle of the Blackwater and said right to his face that Stannis would be back and would totally kick his ass: This man was a legend. Eternal respect.