Personifications and Elementals

So one thing that's always been weird to me is the idea of personified concepts and elementals. Specifically how they're portrayed. I mean, think about the elementals you've probably come up against. Almost every single elemental is just a humanoid made up of the element in question. Which strikes me as boring as fuck.

And personifications are often extremely shallow and obvious in their design. Personification of sloth? Big fat guy who doesn't do shit. Personification of death? Skeleton. Personification of addition? Guy with a bunch of syringes in him. You get what I mean here? There's no complexity to the depiction. No deeper meaning behind the forms they take.

I've always thought that these things should be kind of clever or attempt to play into the nature of what they're representing. A fire elemental, for instance, would be like a high speed shoggoth; constantly flickering between forms and spreading or cloning itself constantly. But it would need to eat constantly as well and be limited in what it could eat to sustain itself. Much like how fire spreads by burning things up, but can only do so with flammable objects. So a fire elemental would probably be very short lived, but very powerful because of its speed and the fact that you can't really damage it with anything but removing of its food or oxygen.

Does anyone have some examples of "Non-standard" or more inventive personifications or elementals?

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The problem with going full weird is that it can leave people without a frame of reference and make it hard to understand.

There's also a pretty solid justification in the 'boring' elementals and personifications in that they draw their appearance from our expectations and the way people tend to anthropomorphise things. It makes sense that they'd take the form that makes sense to the lowest common denominator.

Not to say that the extremely weird, thoughtful or philosophical forms aren't interesting, but there's a reason they aren't widely used.

Bah, aiming for the lowest common denominator is a shitty way to create things. It infantilizes the population by never forcing them to actually use their fucking brain and think about things. If the things are written by people who cannot think of anything better than fine, but actively dumbing shit down just to appeal to idiots is a terrible practice.

Ars Magica, even though it hews close to normal with the standard elementals (big piles of an element with a few quirks), has some interesting details for the elemental spirits. No physical description because spirits, but their mindsets are suitably weird.

It's more an issue of imaginability. A dancing woman of fire is easier to get across than a flaming shogi other.

Eh. Thats just being lazy. Everything is easier if all adventures take place in perfectly clean white box rooms and all your enemies are just different sized orcs.

I always liked how Exalted did elementals. That goes much more into weird symbolism. So you can get water elementals that are seven-tongued giant dogs, or earth elementals that are dragons made of quicksilver with the heads of ants, or fire elementals that are single staring eyes of flame that reveal secrets. It's neat stuff.

I believe you meant to type "shoggoth", but now I want a fire elemental that's a shogi set. What sort of fire spirit would take the shape of a board game?

In an artistic sense, yes, it's kinda shitty and lazy.

In a marketing sense? While you do get edge cases where super weird shit works, those are just that- edge cases. They need something really compelling to hook people in beyond just how different they are.

It is a lot safer, a lot easier to market and a lot easier to sell things people have an easier time understanding.

The hell kind of elementals are you talking about?

This kind?

Well, that depends on if it is by that spirit's own will or if it is forced into that shape. A Wizard might be able to force elementals to take whatever form he wants and use them as furniture or something. Or a cooking fire.

Alternatively, it could be a fire spirit inhabiting the board for one reason or another. Maybe taking refuge there or using it to interact with the world if it couldn't otherwise.

Imagine a fire spirit sent to earth to do "Chess with death" style contests with would-be wizards for access to power. But instead of chess you play shogi and the board itself is your opponent.

People keep saying shit like that but I wonder how much of it is bullshit marketers lying to themselves. Deadpool, for instance, was a radical departure from the other marvel movies. It had an R rating, it was full of hard core violence and shit like a lady pegging a guy. And it was insanely successful.

Meanwhile shit like "transformers" is by the numbers tripe that is getting less and less successful each time.

I really don't see how making lightning elemental look like...say...a disembodied nervous system that communicates via a voice that sounds like windchimes is gonna crush your system's ability to sell to shitheads.

Calcifer is a demon.

Then this kind.

The kind that is an elemental being? What other kinds are there? Is this some DnD shit?

It's tricky. The anons here and (You) have done a good job at identifying the problem.

From a GM's perspective, you ideally don't want a fire elemental to just be a mook that happens to be on/made of fire if you can avoid it, but the players also have to to be able know what they're dealing with (not necessarily right away of course).

How I'd deal with it (depending on the setting), is to anthropomorphize a fire elemental to be essentially what you laid out, except in human form. Less shapeshifting shoggoth and more someone the party meets that's a cross between an absolute madman and a starving Toreador vampire. Always craving something that satisfies them, unpredictable, pleasant to humans in moderation, yet consumes people if they're not careful around them. Think Francis Urquhart crossed with Irene Adler and the Hulk.

Honestly, I always figured these kinds of elementals were loosely based on old renaissance (and earlier) depictions of elementals, which were salamanders, undines, gnomes, and sylphs.

I should clarify that salamanders were associated with fire, undines with water, gnomes with earth, and sylphs with air.

This is Bayonetta's personification of Sloth. It's a super-fast, acrobatic demon who wields six swords in combat; it's one of the strongest non-boss demons in the game. Legend has it that it hangs around the gates of Heaven to stab people who are about to enter and drag their souls to Hell.

This is Bayonetta's personification of Kinship. It's a flying boat.

The thing about "non-standard" anthropomorphic personifications is that a lot of them aren't exactly embodiments of concepts, so much as just plain weird.

We've all played MGQ, we're well aware of that.

Not gonna lie, that flame elemental looks amazing. Where is it from?

Ok, cool concepts, OP, but here's the real question:

If you were a DM, and you had to describe one of your non-anthropomorphic, non "lowest common denominator" elementals or personifications, how would you describe a PAIN ELEMENTAL to a party at the table?

Its not really. Something is much evocative to a player if you can form a clear picture in their mind of what it is they're experiencing. You're deconstructing it into a hyperbole.

I'm not familiar with D&D to know if these are specific D&D terms, but in my opinion, why make the divide? In a game, for more mook variety and for stat blocks and stuff, fair enough. But for fluff? The distinction seems pointless. Elementals are personifications of solid things, water, fire, earth, natural stuff, Personifications are manifest emotion or memory or something. Same thing, really, on a different level.

A really interesting usage of the term 'elemental' that always stuck with me was from a documentary called 'The Twilight Hour' where a photographer named Simon Marsden (who has sadly passed away) essentially just went around Ireland visiting haunted locations, interviewing people, and giving his opinions and beliefs on the supernatural. It's a very atmospheric documentary. But in his visit to Leap Castle in Co. Offaly, described as the most haunted place in Ireland, he describes one of the entities often encountered on the main stairs as a 'foul-smelling elemental', sort of bestial and half human. The castle has a history of tragedy, and the implication is this bestial thing is a manifestation of human suffering, or evil. Marsden describes it as an elemental. Not a ghost, not a spirit.

To me, they're the same thing. An elemental is a supernatural manifestation, an inhuman spiritual form of something strong, an emotion, an old place, a young place that has had an event, an old forest, an obsessive thought, a deeply held and revered concept. Maybe it's a whole bunch of concepts surrounding one thing like water which is as likely to give life as it is take it away, which gives life but creates uninhabitable places for humans. Fire, it was the power that made us the ruler of the planet, kept the dark and predators at bay, cooked our food, but it can kill us, it can devastate an environment. Fear is an emotion that facilitates survival as much as it does hinder it, by making us run from danger, or freeze up in terror.

Yet none of them are a weird ass fucking thing like How do you explain that to a player? It's fucking dumb.

This is my point I was trying to make hereTangential and strange relations of recognizable elements becomes strange and more evocative that some weird ass shit you need to describe every time to your players.

What point do you think you're talking against, exactly?

>Elementals are personifications of solid things, water, fire, earth, natural stuff
No? A water elemental, for instance, is literally just water that's alive.

In my setting, there's no distinction between a "stone elemental" and "some stone", except that one has been convinced to walk around for a bit.

Water /is/ water elementals. Fire, all fire, is fire elementals. You don't summon them from other planes. You just ask them to help. It helps if you have proper training.

This post covers some of the basics elementalist in the setting "know" about elementals.

coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/03/osr-nature-and-lives-of-elementals.html

But this one covers the elements in more depth and provides handy tables for finding out what they want.
coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/03/osr-what-does-elemental-want.html

>Everything is easier if all adventures take place in perfectly clean white box rooms and all your enemies are just different sized orcs.

Or dogs.

Dog elemental from the dogplane.

I think just a fire person is fun. I mean, a weird artistic thing that is very complex and you need to think about is also fun. But usually, I think simplicity and straightforwardness of a water person, skeleton, or what have you serves the purpose well enough.

But I get it. We're all spergy about some weird, sub-niche thing on this board already dedicated to a niche hobby.

I'd love to hear what other ideas you have.

That's rad as fuck.

I think it's 4e art.

The problem with stuff like you example is that if you remove the frame of reference of it being a fire elemental nobody would know it was a fire elemental, just an odd elemental with strange abilities.

When you take it that far you are forced to explain the connection, think about a joke that is "deep" and "complex" but the joke is wasted when you have to explain it every time

That being said, it can still be a fun way to come up with some interesting critters

Listen, a frame of reference is vital because not everyone's got your specific mindset and thought process. You gotta set a common groundwork and go from there. Giant fire dude is the groundwork that you're used to because you're browsing media meant for a mass audiences and it can't afford to get too out there without losing too many folks to be viable. But you can if you build a group or community around it.

Think of the average person's conception of a Dwarf, Got it in your head? Good. Now think of a fucking DORF. That's still easily identifiable by folks here and WELL beyond. Now think of your own weird-ass take on dorfs. Who's gonna get that without some time to work with it and understand?

Basically, if ya gonna get weird with it, gotta ease into that shit. Can't go straight for the anus, gotta work your way there, son.