/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

Previous thread: >Pastebin:


This week's Monday Meeting Notes:

Has the Technocracy ever been featured in one of your games as anything other than antagonists?

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Found it, I'm going through it right now. I know I'm probably very late to the discussion, but... doesn't this take the Chronicles of Darkness in a very different place? I'm mostly talking about the supernatural stuff. Not saying it's bad, per se, but it looks a lot more x-men than I expected.

Are these threads really filled up with so many Americans (continent-wise) that during the day there's barely any activity, like now?

I'm new to WoD.

Why does V:TR suck so much compared to V:TM?

Because you're comparing games that are similar, but different. 'Suck' is an entirely subjective assessment. VtR is written with a different goal and different set of guidelines than VtM.

Where VtM from mid-1e onward ended up having a huge metaplot, with supplement books developing the world and giving chronicles, events to play through and a world where things were defined for players to interact with, VtR was written with a toolkit approach. WW stated many times before when VtR first came out that they'd written themselves into a corner with all of the metaplot in OWoD, and so Requiem was their attempt to move to a game that gave a framework and put more tools in the hands of the ST to develop their world, their own way.

Can you say, without resorting to 'they changed it, now it sucks' why you think VtR sucks?

Also obligatory MEGAs:

General Mega: mega.nz/#F!pBE1hYSK!DQKqkQgl8vs5mV9qaIWDnw!9BlQlJ5D

OWoD-specific Mega: mega.nz/#F!YIgVwQKY!ykGezjo3qppcgHXzTKuBGQ!8N5hQYpA

NWoD-specific Mega:mega.nz/#F!rFIDxRRK!IEzkLlroRoPwmDqtxKRMsw!PJYEwATA

General MEGA is the most updated.

>Can you say, without resorting to 'they changed it, now it sucks' why you think VtR sucks?
The reason I say that is because there seems to be far fewer clans in V:TR than in V:TM, and they seem less differentiated too. For example, Malkavians lose dementation, thus having no clan-unique discipline.

This morning I stumbled uppon the thought of Anarch Tremeres, maybe a Caitiff with no thaumaturgy was my first approach but after a few clicks my attention went from that to Anarch Sorcery, specifically about this quote from the WWWiki:

>Like many systems of esoteric thought, Anarch blood magic involves searching out reclusive tutors who are often not eager to share what they know, or finding obscure tomes that are as likely to cause damnation as to bring about enlightenment

Because of the last part I'm planning to write a story (because I have no friends to play with) about a pack of anarchs in search for a tome by which they can learn Hell's Calling, a spell that evokes Rötschreck in the target. This adventure would be motivated by a pyromaniac Malkavian, who got to know about the this tome thanks to a vision-like dream that's ultimately just a trap from an older and isolated Malkavian whose predilection for his clan's blood lead him to a very solitary and psychopatic way of life, however the spell and the tome is real. I came up with this idea just minutes ago but I'd love to hear some opinions about it, along with some recommendations for the pack structure or plot lines I could use. Or just tell me if it sounds like shit.

For me it's the clans. New clans not being clans just kills the fun for me.

I came to this thread looking for the MEGA folders. Much obliged.

One of the stated design goals in VtR, stated way back when by the devs, was to narrow down the clans into more classic horror archetypes. So you got the aristocratic/lordly, sensual/sexual, monstrous, wild/bestial and secretive. The goal of VtR wasn't to remake Masquerade one-for-one, and I honestly wish they'd hewed farther away from Masquerade's framework than they did.

This is why I tell people going into VtR, don't look at it as Masquerade 4th Edition. Take a step back, remove the VtM overlay from your eyes, and look at it for what it is: an attempt to try something new.

Instead of 13 clans (and some bloodlines) which really hew away from classic vampire tropes (I'm sorry, but vampire wizard is barely a trope; vampires inflicted with debilitating madness is even further away; and 'vampire assassins' is not even a trope at all), it narrows it down to more broad guidelines, more 'racial identity' than 'class' after a fashion.

Define 'not being clans'? I'm curious, really. I haven't seen an instance of something I've played, or planned to play, in VtM that I couldn't recreate in VtR in some fashion. Clan niches are now more spread out and Bloodlines fill a ton of the old niches, while expanding on them and giving them more logic within the archetype framework.

Technocracy is usually pretty morally grey in my games, so are Trads. The two factions are less likely to kill or kidnap each other, similar to the interactions between the Hierarchy and Heretic wraiths in the 2e wraith comic. The war for reality is usually fought by proxy.

Bloodlines have that variety, and Dementation is re-introduced in the Ventrue Clanbook.

A possibility for Malkavians I've been toying around with is that Malkavia makes you immune to VII. (I always use some variant of the sleepers when I do VII, cause the other ideas either suck are are too similar to Belial's Brood).

Dementation for Camarilla Malks was a mistake.

>Re: MEGAs

You're welcome. 7chan was gold on this stuff for a long time (I even found a Mind's Eye Theatre book I was figuring no one had ever bought, ever).

What are the requirements and conditions that are required for achieving the mythical Final Attainment (6th Legacy Attainment) and what powers would it emulate? Dave mentioned that some Masters get this Attainment and that it is a prerequisite for Legacy Ascension, but having the Attainment and Ascending aren't the same thing, so these Masters could have some kewl powers.

What's your opinion on throwing first time Warith-players into the labyrinth immediately, that is starting Wraith off by playing Doomslayers? Will I ruin the group for further, more traditional and depressing/angsty, Wraith-games?

>tfw my entire recquiem game is accidentally me making malkavia into the malkavian madness network via a singular Malkav personality manifesting across multiple vampires whove been afflicted with the disease

Does anyone have some information in the Giovanni family branches? I'm in search for the german branch, the Koenigs. They are weapon manufracturers and have some dort of death cult according to some wikis. I want to play one after a long time away from V:TM.

I'm skeptical of the idea that "let's make our vampires more tropetastic" was anything other than wrongheaded.

I also tend to think that bloodlines are too small and hyperfocused to have the same effect, especially when it comes to the independent clans that act like their own sects.

And that's fine. I'm just saying, it provides a more broad framework to work within, since you don't have 'I am a worldwide clan of only rebels' or 'I am a worldwide clan of only artfags' or 'I am a worldwide clan of alien flesh-shapers' and you have 'I am a lordly vampire' which is more of a wide-reaching concept. Also, being hyper-focused is the concept of Bloodlines; they're explained in one of the bloodlines books that they're adaptations for some reason by a specific vampire, and they're more like families.

Definitely sounds like Requiem is not going to be for you, in general, since you can't get past the things you like in Masquerade or your conceptions on how things should work. Which is fine, everyone has their own thing they like.

I don't know of a way to explain it better than above.
Clan = Race
Bloodline = Family
Covenant = Political/Societal/Religious Affiliation

It's written differently from Masquerade's sects and clans because of the desire to do something different from Masquerade.

I'm skeptical of this, since the Gangrel, Nosferatu, and Ventrue aren't really that different from their Masquerade counterparts. The Daeva are a lot like the Toreador with their focus shifted to sex instead of art, and the Mekhet hope that you come up with other occult things for them to investigate, since the Mekhet aren't that interesting themselves.

(Also, I'm not the same person you started this conversation with. And I like a lot of Requiem's crunch and the lack of generations, even the lack of metaplot, but I hate the covenants and am skeptical of the clans.)

Yeah, they aren't super-different other than what their detailed focus is. The devs stated many times that the concepts of the five clans were meant to cover five, very broad archetypes (lord, monster, beast, sensual, mysterious). You can be skeptical but that was the stated goal.

Would you ever see, say, a trailer park owner as a Ventrue concept in OWoD? Probably not. But that's an example in the NWoD Ventrue clan book, because they are the 'lords of the night' not just Blue Bloods. Nosferatu are inherently creepy in some way, not meltyface (though artists always forget that). Gangrel are relatively unchanged though they don't have physical manifestations, their minds are affected by their bestial nature.

The similaries in those three clans are why I say I wish WW had hewed farther away from Masquerade than they did, but they didn't want to risk alienating all of their players.

I'd suggest to read the Clanbooks for Requiem if you want to get some deeper insight into the clans.

And that's cool, you can use Requiem's mechanics with Masquerade's metaplot and such through the Vampire Translation Guide.

>The reason I say that is because there seems to be far fewer clans in V:TR than in V:TM, and they seem less differentiated too.

To many of us, this a a great feature, not a bug, in Requiem.

As another user stated, Requiem is not meant as a new edition of Masquerade, and should not be viewed through such a prism.

While certain similarities exist, largely with nomenclature, one of the goals of Requiem was to remove the bloat that existed in Masquerade. Besides the obvious metaplot, the number of clans and bloodlines was cut down to simple archetypes. The lessened reliance on many racial and ethnic stereotypes was also welcome.

Plus bloodlines can add any sort of variation/difference you want.

Basically, IMC, Dementation is a cure for VII. So a city "falling" to Malkavia is a result of extreme, prolonged use of Dementation to "purge" VII once the Malkavians put 2 and 2 together.

This has the side effect of making the city's kindred go bugfuck, possibly permanently, but you know what they say about omlettes and eggs..

Ignoring the metaplot and such, how much would the world of Requiem change if the Lasombra and Lasombra were introduced to it, in their equivalent of modern nights, with all their unique Disciplines and weaknesses? How would the Requiem clans and covenants react to them?

Some nossies are still meltyface, but I usually go with a more "Tzimisce" approach

Do the Directional Courts make anyone else think of KotE? Kuei-Jin are changelings now.

Obtenebration was written into requiem 1e, it was nerfed alot but its there, no lasombra though.

Depending how how they acted then they would get the appropriate reaction? The translation guide might also have write ups for this. Have you read it? I have but a really long time ago so cant remember

oh look theres that ventrue bloodline that likes fucking shadow tentacles....

Wouldn't it be a Mekhet bloodline?

was trying to trigger vtm peeps by saying lasombra are just ventrue wierdos...

>if the Lasombra and Tzimisce


Yeah, I know about that. There's also some kind of watered down version of Vicissitude as well.

>Have you read it?

Nope. Is it included in the megas that have been posted in the thread?

>totally new to the system my gm is running, want to make Julius Belmont as a vampire hunter
>whips are shit
>decide to use a sword instead so I can do a little damage
>it doesn't do much compared to guns and whatever I'm fighting has defense, which lowers pools to where I might as well just use my subpar firearm pool instead

Is there ever a time or reason to invest in weaponry, really? As a Normie character with a few benedictions, it feels like melee is a death sentence against anything past a fat cashier. Or am I missing something? It's going to be hard killing a Dracula if this keeps up.

Lasombra and Tzimisce's impact are basically nothing special among vampires, fun as they are. Amoral inhuman manipulators are standard fare and the world makes space for them like any other amoral inhuman manipulator vampires.

Yeah, but Obtenebration and Vicissitude go so much beyond what Requiem clans got.

Well, it IS hard to kill Dracula with a whip. This is represented in both the source material and the game you've picked up, sounds like. Maybe those early Castlevania games would have been easier with actual strong weapons.

Yeah don't you have to hit him with that whip like 1000 times to kill him while you die in only a few hits?

IIRC vampires are weaker to melee than to guns.

>Nope. Is it included in the megas that have been posted in the thread?

Yes it is, the nwod one
NWoD-specific Mega:mega.nz/#F!rFIDxRRK!IEzkLlroRoPwmDqtxKRMsw!PJYEwATA

Well alternatively, it's made possible due to the whip in question being the legendary Vampire Killer wielded by a Belmont, which is not just a mundane whip anymore like user is trying.


That's what I used my Sun Whip in a werewolf game for once. I'm pretty sure its one of the sillier anti-vampire weapons.

Not in 2e

Really? Not original responder but I've never played VtR. Is it massively lower in power level than VtM?

It's... different. They got their own things going for them, I'm not gonna go saying they're shit because they're not, but just the lengths Obtenebration alone can go to is fucking insane, like blotting out the sun. That said, I have no idea if there's an Abyss in nWoD and if it there is, if it's anything at all similar to what it was in oWoD.

>Has the Technocracy ever been featured in one of your games as anything other than antagonists?

Yeah, I've ran Technocracy games. Most of the players tend to be god awful at it because they have no idea how to do anything science-y at all. Not enough people watch Scifi anymore. I blame the death of Star Trek.

There is literally no reason to use melee in CofD. Guns are vastly superior in every way, despite being wielded by superhuman monsters, swords suck dick.

A blood line that gave Vampires powers over the Mage's Supernal Abyss would be mildly amusing and Paradox generating.

The only reason I ever ran into in any game line to not use guns is because I hadn't acquired a magic one yet that would work in the Hedge.

Star Trek was hardly about that kind of science, more like science related to studying cultures different from your own. It just took place in a setting of advanced technology. Scotty moments were the Duplo of physics science - flip the engine upside-down and it can go faster backwards, then add banana peels and it'll slip laterally at lightspeed - and you as a GM wouldn't let them past I'm pretty sure.

Magic is stupidly useful in CofD.


I think Guns would lose a lot of ground if Defense was still applied to them. Or if diving for cover was more of a thing for defense. Seriously, it's sad that melee weapons are useless in the hand of a vampire.

>Scotty moments were the Duplo of physics science - flip the engine upside-down and it can go faster backwards, then add banana peels and it'll slip laterally at lightspeed - and you as a GM wouldn't let them past I'm pretty sure.
On the contrary, technobabble is literally supposed to be how Technocrats explain their paradigm. It's all hypermatematics, space folding, advanced physics, and primal energy theory. Least for the Void Engineers and ItX.

NWO is against that kinda shit, but the NWO are the worst sort of people.

The Magic Gun angle is going to be less useful in Changeling 2e, more than a few kiths allow you to use defense against firearms and a few more give armor. It feels like its really easy to just make combat go on forever.

I've never had a combat in CofD last longer than 2 rounds. Ever.

Then again, I play more WoD than CofD, but it goes by in like 6 seconds in CofD at most. Normally with whomever getting the surprise winning. Which is not how combat should work between Supernaturals in my opinion.

>implying Technocracy don't get from place to place via banana engine drifting

>Mage sensory range attacks ignore all Defense and armor
>Can inflict aggravated damage at range with an Arcanum rating of only 4

>Mage combat supremacy


Too bad you guys spent so much time establishing that Mage is about omnipotence where you can do whatever you want at will, otherwise we might actually care about what you do with its mechanics in a brawl.

What member of any splat would have a chance against Swole Jawa in melee combat?

Man, between that and the one *teleports behind you and instantlygrapple bites your holy ass* power the vampires have, I really made a huge mistake with this character.

You win, who cares? Who would even be interested in hearing how the Mage wins everything forever?

Have people forgotten that (non-magic) guns run out of ammunition?

Unfortunately that's only an issue if you fire your gun on full auto or you're fighting a dozen guys some guy with an ungodly amount of tanking.

Other than that, ammunition isn't really much of an issue, and frankly, you have bigger concerns when ammo becomes a problem.

The game is usually taking place in America. The roads are paved with ammo.

Hey guys, i updated the Pastebin a bit, just included links to 1 or 2 more Megas and some VTES stuff.

Realistic gunfights are nothing like they are on television and the movies. Do you ever wonder why in many reported police shootings, multiple officers fire multiple dozens of rounds, and often there are few actual wounds, with sometimes no shots actually hitting their mark.

Ammunition capacity, ease of reloading and similar concerns matter, at least if you're attempting a non-cinematic style of play.

Also, if you've ever faced a Uratha in Gauru in 2e, you'll appreciate having lots and lots of ammo.

Hey /CofD/ I have a rules question.

When the third dot of Professional Training says "take two Specialties in your character’s Asset Skills" I'm assuming it means you get two specialties total that can be in any of your Asset skills. But could it mean you get two specialties in EACH of your asset skills? Just need a clarification

This is a game that has combat mechanics, it's not totally freeform or something. And if it was, it *would* be trying to ape a TV/movie fight scene, not reality.

You get 2 specialties for any of your asset skills.

In the upcoming Signs of Sorcery for Awakening, DaveB indicated that the book will include expanded rules for making magical objects, including endless ammo clips.


"Chapter Three: The Crafter’s Trade covers the persistent magical effects created by magic within the known Practices (as compared to Chapter Five, below). We cover all of the perfected metals and their uses, only partially listed in first edition, and do a victory lap through other perfected materials, too (perfected fire! Perfected water!). Thaumium is back, along with a few other alloy spells. Enhanced Items are next, the largest set of spells in the book, covering everything from endless ammo clips to Forces spells to make devices function without power. The chapter then expands on the rules for Imbued Items, including spells allowing mages who don’t yet have Prime 4 to store spells temporarily in items as “charges”, spells to allow mages to Imbue living beings, spells that alter how relinquishing spell control works and cursed items (a fan-favourite topic in Tome of the Mysteries.) Finally, the chapter discusses the social aspects of magical item creation among the Awakened, and gives Merits so your character can tote any of the goodies described herein."

>the Technocracy
Pick one. They are objectively the good guys of the setting.

Have this.

thanks faggot

Would Zagreus (Daeva Methuselah from Night Horrors: Immortal Sinners (pg. 128 - 132)) be a match for a Master?

Are there any other Methuselahs that we know of in Requiem?

Alright another history question. Some of the oWoD lines went through their own internal editions, the most I've seen I think is 1e, 2e, and then revised. What sorts of differences did these editions bring? Were they major changes or mostly stuff like simple rules updates and minor setting alterations?

The translation guide doesn't rewrite the disciplines though. THere's some minor listing of how some powers work, but mostly it covers costs and dice pools. It doesn't rework everything completely.

And Requiem wasn't built to be Masquerade 4th Edition and include those, frankly, way overpowered and unthematic disciplines. The fucking origin of Vicissitude is the Brian Lumley Necroscope series.

'Only' 4. Holy shit, is every mage in the world a quintuple master/sextuple adept?

Sadly the weakest Part of the conversion guide is Blood Potency and Generation. Without Generation being meaningful it sorta makes the OWoD politics a bit nonsensical.

2 specialties total divided over your Asset Skills, not 2 specialties in each one.

That reflects more badly that it's an integral part of Masquerade than it reflects badly on the Conversion Guide. And I'm saying this as a Masqueradefag.

Disciples and Adepts are the most common groupings in Mage society, yes.

you act like that's a bad thing

Eh? I find Requiem to be really good, and I don't lament the loss of stuff like Fishmalks, Vicissitude and the whole alien aesthetics, or more of the crazy stuff from Masquerade. It's different, and I like that i can make my own crazy origins up, rather than having every vampire know *winkwink* Nod Caine ANTEDILUVIANS!! *nudgenudge*

Zagreus has a Blood Potency of nine, yes?
I'm fairly certain that even a Master with a Gnosis of five will outmaneuver him or thoroughly end the ancient vampire upfront with an Unmaking Praxis / Rote, or some such. Or not even.
It's also fair to note that The Dark Decree is quite powerful even for a Devotion, but the requirement is ludicrously high even so.
Comparable to Fate Patterning, four dots.

Zagreus is also really old and really lazy, living such an entropic lifestyle won't give him the necessary cunning to deal with a true wizard, especially one proficient in Fate. How would he even react to someone capable of nullifying the one thing that has determined his multi-millennial existence?

Yeah, crazy origins is great and all. but Vicissitude was awesome.

They aren't internal. As a game they all went through it except Wraith and Changeling.

The changes are mechanical to the system and moving along the metaplot. There's 4 editions as is, 1e, 2e, Revised or 3e, X20 or 4e, and the upcoming 5e.

X20 lines are metaplot agnostic.

>It's different, and I like that i can make my own crazy origins up, rather than having every vampire know *winkwink* Nod Caine ANTEDILUVIANS!! *nudgenudge*
You mean that thing that wasn't part of the line until Gehenna came out? There were a bunch of other explanations for vampires until Gehenna came out. See the shit about Beckett.

There was a whole lot of shit about the Antediluvians before the Gehenna book. They're featured in tons of the books, one of them is integral to the creation of an ENTIRE FUCKING CLAN, some of them are active in scenarios set in the Dark Ages, tons of other stuff. Don't act like 'oh, look, suddenly ANTEDILUVIANS!' in the Gehenna book.

I play the Technocratic Union as sympathetic antagonists. They want to keep vulgar magick off the streets and avoid public incidents, so they tend to leave most Mages alone as long as they don't end up on the news or are part of a major power structure the Technocrats think they can take down.

The most powerful Mage in my local setting [California] is a Hermetic who actually has contact with the the local head of the Technocracy. The latter called up the former when Excalibur turned up unexplained at the local museum.

I have Men in Black as usually normal humans with superior technology with a few Enlightened thrown in, instead of clones or slaves. They'll talk down Mages, send in NWO to make deals, and generally act as semi-reasonable authority figures [as long as you aren't casting spells on Main Street].

For those few who DO cast spells on Main Street, I have Hit Marks, which I've modified again from clones into basically 22nd century SWAT. Cyborgs in power armor who show up in black helicopters and whose sole mission is neutralize the anamoly with extreme prejudice. Luckily my PCs have kept their noses down and haven't run into these yet.

Also the metaplot never happened, so the Traditions and Technocracy are each more then powerful enough to potentially destroy the other, at the risk of making the war for reality a public affair. Or as local Hermetic Magus puts it "We don't want wizards fighting cyborgs in the streets."

You do realize that most of the technocracy is just Extraordinary Citizens with notMagic equipment right?

>Also the metaplot never happened, so the Traditions and Technocracy are each more then powerful enough to potentially destroy the other, at the risk of making the war for reality a public affair. Or as local Hermetic Magus puts it "We don't want wizards fighting cyborgs in the streets."
Oh nevermind, you just don't understand the point of the Avatar Storm at all, nor the Ascension War


1. Thats literally what I just said for how I run MiB.

2. The Avatar Storm is completely dogshit and the single worst part of the lore. Removed is immediately.

>2. The Avatar Storm is completely dogshit and the single worst part of the lore. Removed is immediately.
It's the best part of the fucking lore since they game is a shit hole without it and the Traditions become a bunch of spiraling morons without it.

Mage is a Pulp as shit game about kung fu masters and mad scientists with literal ray guns and jet packs teaming up with Hermetic Wizards and Faith Healers to go fight Men in Black.

All the Avatar Storm does is try and tone that down and make it more reserved, which runs entirely counter to the whole theme of the game.

If you want a more 'serious' game, play Awakening. I meanwhile shall be fighting fairies on the Moon.

"Well, you see, Agent Jones, a bunch of zombies or whatever those things were showed up and started eating people at the mall, so we had to get a little creative. Sorry about the mess."

Avatar storm and associated bullshit has served its purpose and passed, resume deep space ops and roasting woofs in the umbra.

>I meanwhile shall be fighting fairies on the Moon.
>Not nuking faeries from your spaceship.

>Not riding into space in your truck and then shooting lightning at the fairies.

>Avatar Storm
>It's the best part of the fucking lore

Funny how the vast majority of magefags disagree with this assessment. It even led to death threats being thrown at authors.

>TFW some guys truck is more powerful than your Star Trek ship.

>Implying awakening doesn't have Kung-Fu masters, Mad Scientists and Faith Healers with the Hermetics going to beat down a bunch of much less sympathetic Illuminati-types

So, I've never played or even read any old except for hunter. What's the technocracy and whats the avatar storm?