Why does no one want to play a game where your main antagonist is demons like pic related...

Why does no one want to play a game where your main antagonist is demons like pic related? Everyone is too edgy to slaughter hordes of demons, they want to find out that the demons were the good guys or that there's some kind of gray. I just want to sit down at a table and pit myself against pure evil. Is that too much to ask?

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Yes, because Veeky Forums are comprised of morons who'd want to sit down and have tea with Satan himself just because modern conventions paint the dark lord as a misunderstood figure while God is a genocidal asshole.

I blame the counter culture in response to strict religious upbringing coupled with stories that feature corrupt churches who are *gasp* actually working for Satan the entire time!!!!

My players are happy consorting with devils to fuck up demons.
It's not the same, but sometimes players are happy with a general direction to murder towards.

>Players want to play the whole "kill God himself" crap
>Give them a repurposed Darksiders for a campaign
>They beat "not Metatron".
>"not Samael" shows up and fucks them all up while they're wounded, claiming the throne of everything for himself.
>They get upset that the avatar of the very concept of deception betrayed them.
I still don't know what they expected or how they didn't see it coming.

They expected you to let them succeed and got butthurt that their stupidity and naivety cost them the throne. You'll find this a lot among players in general.

Demons literally did nothing wrong.
They're a mechanisim created by God to test humans.They don't even have free will.

Daily reminder that contrarian 'what's wrong with just slaying the evil dragon and saving the princess hur dur why is everything morally gray' is a strawman and doesn't at all represent reality.

If that's the kind of campaign, why haven't your run it yet? Or told your DM that's the kind of game you want?

Or is it more likely you're shitposting on Veeky Forums to get easy pity points by everyone agreeing with your 'controversial opinion'?

Fuck off.

pretty much this

This not only happens at tabletop OP.
I traveled and come from distant lands from /v/, /tv/ and even /co/... and The Event repeats itself in all media.

Pure Evil is just not Pure anymore.

>a strawman and doesn't at all represent reality.
Gee its almost like we're taking part in mutual escapism and enjoying ourselves rather than some shitty angst-fest because the villain is actually a misunderstood victim of bullying.
If you think everything has to be morally grey and ambiguous you are the reason things get the fun sucked out of them.

>'The Event'

What is 'The Event'?

The strawman being "why does no one want to play a game where the main antagonist is demons"

The reality being "there's some kind grey", not actual physical reality.

Read my post again.

Good has turn to Grey, Evil has turn to Misundesrtood Good, and Grey is Good from Evil's point of view.

Ambiguous morality doesn't have a place in a setting where "good" and "evil" have definitive meanings and forces behind them. That's why the "baby orc" problem is so fucking stupid.

All posts in Veeky Forums are derivitives of what you said. Shouldn't you be spazzing from rage right now?

Only retards take the phrase "no one" as to mean literally no one in existence this context, ofcourse it means that throughout OP's experience, he never found a campaign like that.

To be fair, it's not like most systems actually treats morality as objectively as it treats the concept of a lawful/good/neutral/evil/chaotic plane.

Ironically, if it did, people would just accuse it of being vidya or some shit.

Complex villains can be fun sometimes, but straight evil demons are great to. And players should be discouraged from being to edgy. Here's a bit of a learning experience I had with that:

Once had a great DM who ran a Pathfinder campaign that was homebrewed to be modern. Sounds like Pathfinder isn't a good system for that, but DM was so amazing he made it work.

Anyway, the party's characters were selected for a demon hunting organization because we possessed ability to see demons and things behind "the veil" totally not Constantine;). Most of party was goody-two-shoes paladin types and what not. I went super edgy and played neutral evil ninja the setting was not asian themed and enhanced my powers by making deals with devils.

I was planning on getting my soul back by selling out the party (basically being a giant edgy game ruining idiot), but the DM played it way smart and the devil was like, "If you want to save your soul, go to church". So between a devil telling me to go to church, a wizard sacrificing himself for the party, and all sorts of demonstrations of THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP I finally used my big favor with the devils to resurrect a party member who hated me and my shenanigans through all this (in character) and she was a by the book lawful good inquisitor who used a gun to shoot blessed bullets who'd have been infuriated to learn she was saved by a deal with a devil.... This bumped me from evil to neutral.

In the final boss fight the party was mostly wiped, but I sacrificed myself to save a baby living embodiment of virtue from being sacrificed by demons, and even though I died I was bumped from neutral to good and my soul was saved and I made it to heaven. And the power armor wearing paladin who was secretly a werewolf and had been fighting it all this time lost control at seeing all his friends killed. And he transformed to werewolf form and ripped the demon boss apart, probably the only way he could've won at that point.

And the party had a cavalier who rode a motorcycle and used a stop sign as a lance, which was totally awesome.

ACKS puts it best:

>As with the original fantasy roleplaying game, and the inspiration it found in Poul Anderson’s Three Hearts and Three Lions and Michael Moorcock’s Universal Champions multiverse, the Adventurer Conqueror King System simulates a world in which the forces of Law and Chaos war for supremacy. The Character Creation rules in Chapter 2 describe alignment not as a gauge of behavior, but as a measure of with which side in the endless war your character has allied. Beastmen such as orcs, gnolls, or ogres were created by those who serve Chaos, and Lawful characters have no moral obstacle to slaughtering them whenever possible.

>This bumped me from evil to neutral
Maybe in your book.
By everyone standards, you went from lawful evil to lazy evil, and that doesn't exist so by default would jump to neutral evil.

I need to be careful with demons because any character played by my younger brother will immediately jump through anything resembling a portal. Its pretty much tradition at this point. That aside, my friends tend to enjoy a good game about hunting down demon cults as much as they do anything else, I just feel like I'm having trouble keeping it interesting. I did do a bit in a campaign once where a major demon was, through mortal cultists, trying to weaken the church of a minor evil god so he could attempt to usurp her divinity. That was pretty fun.

Make one so it looks like slayed cultists turn into deformed creatures in shirts and caquis.
In reality, they are lesser demons trying to summon a Large Human.

I was already neutral evil. The DM decided that this made me neutral. I think he was a little disappointed because he had already made some awesome demon enhanced template for my character. But I think he also appreciated my slow character development toward good. This was a long campaign, none of this happened over night.

And how was it lazy? I sacrificed a lot of power to save the life of my friend! Even if the friendship wasn't completely reciprocated.... We were friends in my character's mind!

Maybe I should have a whole bunch of minor demons morph in to demontron or something.

Hey men, If you are happy, that's fine. You are fine, and I'm fine with that.
But what you are writing fit less in the "path from evil to good" and more in the "I rolled a 20 and my DM describe this awesome thing that I did"

Using a devil's contracts/power granted to resurrect a person looks like the shittiest way to turning you good. Regardless on how much friendship you put in.

Find different demons. I don't know what system you are using but turning demons into devils makes it so you could use the 9 Archdevils and have themed cultists.
The cult of Dispater have all it's priests on heavy as fuck armor and combats with two shields, Dispater's temples are impenetrable iron fortresses.
Juiblex is a fuckhuge slime and his cultists could perform in caverns and all have stone to flesh/flesh to stone and meld with the cavern.

I enjoy slaying and killing hell spawn the most because they kill each other in their hell and you are helping too by killing. Some of them may even hire you to kill other hell spawn. The heavens will likely approve of your action and reward you. Also, if you are bored of one level you can always go deeper.

>I rolled a 20 and my DM describe this awesome thing that I did

Well like I said, the DM was pretty great. Much more creative than me. But I really don't understand how that's a shitty way to become good.

Well from my point of view the jedi are evil

I'll scale it so meybe you understand.

Selling your soul to Satan to cure your mother's cancer won't make you good. It even can potentially turn you evil, but certainly won't make you good.
Also, making good deeds doesn't actually make you good. If Satan implodes a merchant, pick his food and gives it to a starving children, this won't turn him good. Could Satan eventually turn to good? Yes, he could.

But disregard ramblings on good/evil. Discussions about alignements never ends. If you are happy with how your character bailed Hell, great for you. Just know that the percentage of it happening, came 15% on your side and 85% thanks to your awesome DM.

>Trusting !Samael
Yeah nah they had it coming.

You want beer and pretzels dungeoncrawling. Your friends want nuanced ethical dilemma and interesting story. The later is interesting to more people. The former is a minority.

Why don't you talk to your friends about the type of game you want to play?

Also, read this:

He goes into the details of what you need for beer and pretzels gaming. And it largely involves simply not engaging in morals and ethics in the game.

The Bible strongly supports that position.

Wow, no fail safe or any back up plan after killing God. Did they expect to kill God and be done with it?

>came 15% on your side and 85% thanks to your awesome DM

Probably. But I don't see how what I did was wrong. I didn't sell my soul to save my friend. The devil already had my soul, but he still owed me. It was expected that I would get a powerful favor that would strengthen me selfishly, but I used it to resurrect her instead. And in the end I sacrificed myself to save the baby virtue, and therefore the entire world, from demons. Why wouldn't that make me good?

the biggest twist in Darksiders was when that demon DIDN'T fucking betray you.

>The Bible strongly supports that position.
I'm not saying it doesn't, but that doesn't mean that people should go out of their way to throw their lot in with Satan or all fucking people.

Just because he's misunderstood, doesn't mean that he isn't an asshole.

You still owed the soul to a devil and can't possibly go anywhere but the devil's pocket after you died.
Even if your alignement change after you died, before dying, because dying, while you where dying. Doesn't matter.

Lawful slaughter paladin is edgy too. You're getting annoyed with an abstract generalization and going against it just to show how special you are in comparison to whatever you perceive the majority to be.

Reasonable humans can talk about tone, themes and arcs of a campaign and play together. No one wants to play that game with you because you suck.

Lord of the Rings, the archetypal "good vs. evil" fantasy story in the contemporary western imagination, was published from 1954-1955.

Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, a series of fantasy stories about the adventures of two amoral assholes who only care about each other and booze, and not necessarily in that order, had its first publication in 1939, fifteen years before Lord of the Rings (admittedly two years after The Hobbit, but it can hardly be considered the kind of "heroes vs. the darkness" story of LotR).

Not only that, but mythology has as many stories of scoundrels and tricksters stirring shit up for fun (and sometimes even getting away with it) as it does of heroes slaying evil. Maybe more.

You don't get to pretend that the WONDERFUL TALE OF HEROIC HEROES OF LIGHT AND GOODNESS is somehow an older or more traditional kind of story.

>Everyone is too edgy to slaughter hordes of demons
Personally, because I find combat to be the most boring part of TTRPGs, both to run and to play.

If I wanted to cut my way through thousands of mindless minions, there are already video games that scratch that itch.

TTRPGs are for scraching a different kind of itch.

The devil said I could get it back by "going to church" that implies that it was redeemable. And the DM ruled my sacrifice was enough to do it. Since the devil said it could be done, what was wrong with it?

>You don't get to pretend that the WONDERFUL TALE OF HEROIC HEROES OF LIGHT AND GOODNESS is somehow an older or more traditional kind of story.
In fact, the lawful good archetype that does good and fights evil out of selfless kindness and charity is a pretty new concept in fiction.

Heroes from most of old fiction always had a selfish motivation wouldn't qualify as "good guys" by today's definition, what with being rapey and pillagey on the side.

>Just because he's misunderstood, doesn't mean that he isn't an asshole.
So the devil is pic related?

If OP wants to slaughter hordes of demons, an old school dungeon crawl isn't exactly it either. Those are about sneaking in, grabbing what you can, and hopefully escaping with the treasure and your life.

I think if that's what I wanted I'd go play some Diablo 2 or Torchlight 2.

>Everyone is too edgy to slaughter hordes of demons, they want to find out that the demons were the good guys or that there's some kind of gray.

Something like this?

>Major conflict between humans and demons
>PCs determine, through various adventures, that neither side is entirely unreasonable, both have legitimate grievances, and the current war arises from both an actual conflict of interests— as opposed to mindless hatred— as well as a series of misunderstandings and failed attempts at diplomacy
>Tensions run high, tempers flare, and self-interested actors profiting from the war attempt to sabotage efforts at peace, but the PCs manage to broker a ceasefire, start peace talks, and help the leaders of each group arrive at an amicable solution, culminating in a major accord between the two species
>A vast amount of bloodshed is averted
>Humans and demons take a step towards mutual understanding and cooperation
>The world becomes a better place

How is this edgy?

I mean, I'd rather play that campaign than "Are you a bad enough dude to exterminate the demons before they murderrape everyone?" That's not a terrible premise, exactly, but it's pretty one-note.

The devil controled by your DM give you a free pass and later a DM itself give you a free pass.
There is nothing wrong with it and that's what I'm saying, your DM did it. You just couln't stick to character because the whole party was playing another way, you (not your character) got bored on being evil and wanted to tag along. Surely your DM would had prefer you do this since session one, but let you roll on it, and at the slightest chance he used his DM hand to help you finally be part of the party. As I said, too, that's great for you.
But i'm saying this is clearly not a evil to good background!!

It's more a "Next time roll with the party from the start. Alternatively, DO roll with your character to the end" background.

Because he just wants to drink beer and kill monsters.

Then present pure evil

"Demon! Come to to negotiate! I believe we can come to terms!"


"Will you not see an alternative at all? Perhaps we could..."


Or just make them into creatures that can't actually communicate with humans, and eat them.

I and my group just finished up an arc of the campaign where we were killing tons of devils, and finalized by killing the archdevil who was controlling them.

So, uh, yeah. We pitted ourselves against evil, killed the fucker, snagged his soul before it could squirrel back home to the Nine Hells, and then wished that the gem and all it contained was irrevocably destroyed.

Though that last part was something the GM and I discussed, since the GM found out they gave us too much magical equipment. I figured the wish would act as an overpowered 'Mage's Disjunction' effect and wreck all of our gear too. Then we could get heavily overpayed for the mission, so we're back to our WBL. It worked out pretty well.

Isn't there somewhere in biblical mythology that angels are the only being save God himself who could bring a human soul straight out of hell and into heaven?

>I still don't know what they expected or how they didn't see it coming.

>I still don't know why my players expected me to not punish them for following my plot

Yeah shit user I can't think of any reason either. Must just be ungrateful.

>Avatar of deception
>Just a plot hook.
I mean, if the PCs had any idea who he was, they had it coming.


I think it's more that the players did not know what they were dealing with, and really, REALLY ought to have.

ahh, those were the days

Point, but that's just a matter of game math. Philosophically they're pretty similar.

Just give XP for murder instead of treasure, and make sure the PCs are facing large numbers of weak enemies and that the PC have a ton of hp, make healing items (and ability resource recovery items) commonplace, and you'll get that oldschool Diablo feel instead.

Make use of lots of minion types, and perhaps give the PCs more AOE attacks.

I never had this desu.
I am the only religious person in my game group and my players who are all atheists never had trouble being the typical paladin types or things like it.
I guess it depends on your players.

I am running a game like this right now for my players, and everything is going pretty good except for one player's attendance.

This nigga knows.

Devil literally means something close to procecutor. A devil or the devil was just a job given by God to some entity.

Anything a devil or the devil does, is because Deus Vult!



sounds like a personal problem

>The Bible strongly supports that position.
Sort of, but not really. The devil is certainly misunderstood, but he's still completely evil.