Essays on mind and matter

>tfw everytime I play Gaians I end up spamming boreholes, polluting like there's no tomorow and taming all the mindworms and boils that come. Then I send them over my enemies.
>Can't play straight nature loving hippies.

Yang was a hypocrite, he speaks of sacrifice for the greater whole then sets himself at the top of the pyramid. He stacks the deck so that not only does he stay in charge, it's impossible for anyone to ever grow. His ego is so titanic he can't even allow for the possibility of being surpassed, despite how talented and brilliant he is

Pravin Lal did literally nothing wrong, save for his taste in architecture.

Oh, so you are not just missing the point - you are simply retarded.
I want a collectivistic, commune-based faction that BOTH takes care for all members AND operates on the principle of bending your own will over the problem and self-improvement.
And you are handling me bunch of gung-ho "guns for everyone" idiots as a solution. Reading comprehension much?

And not the other user, but there is zero nuance in Believers. They are made of the edgiest traits imaginable and still stands out in a game made from political carricatures. In fact, they could be only worse if they were combined with Spartans' gung-ho attitude.

>Not planting forests
>Bothering with boreholes
Seriously, nigga?

And let me guess - you don't know how to gain free "clean" minerals, don't you?

>Yang was a hypocrite
I don't think he is a hypocrite as much as he doesn't give a single fact about other people. His writings are exercises in self-reflection which outer universe (as everything outside inner universe which is Yang) can witness and appreciate.

>Implying anyone ever claimed Lal did anything wrong
/pol/ autistic screetching doesn't count, so why are you defending a guy from non-existing attacks?

He didn't let his cloned wives kill him

Because nobody will mention him otherwise, he's boring as fuck.

>2017
>He still doesn't know how to handle eco-damage

>a single fact
*a single fuck obviously

>individualistic militant exceptionalism
>modern military

Pls.

So you don't build Tree Farms and Hybrid Forests? Don't plant trees? Or construct Centauri Preserve, while playing as fucking Gaians?

Not sure what version of the game are you using, but most of them are bugged with really nasty bug.
There is a bunch of eco facilities and secret projects that WON'T FUCKING WORK, unless you experience a fungal bloom caused by eco-damage before building first of those.

So to make the game work as intended, you need to force a fungal bloom BEFORE you build any of those:
Tree Farm, Hybrid Forest, Centauri Preserve and Temple of the Planet; or finish building Pholus Mutagen secret project.

Each of those facilities (aside the secret project) gives +1 free minerals FACTIONWIDE. So assuming you are not shit at base management, each base of yours provides AT LEAST +2 free minerals, as all of them have Tree Farm and Hybrid Forest.
I've once managed to have a base producing well over 200 minerals/turn with zero eco-damage. Six boreholes, two build on mineral deposit, entire area covered in forest and fuckload of satelites, plus all the non-sucking facilities adding bonus to minerals.

whoo! I just dumped 25 bucks into my GOG wallet and I'm on a spending frenzy!

PREPARE FOR MAXIMUM COMFY!!!

psst, hey kid!
gog.com

>Why can't there be something between those two or combining their virtues?
Because they belong at the extremes which are mutually exclusive.

Daily reminder that Miriam's concerns over the societal implications of the tech tree were completely justified.

We must dissent.

It's not about not knowing how, its about not *wanting* to control eco damage and letting the planet to spawn free units for you.

lol...
yeah... i played 'em that way too

I mean fuck, if hippies have such a huge problem with industry we should put them in charge of running the industry and meeting production quotas/making a profit.

This. There is nothing 'edgy' about the Believers so I don't know what game that user has been playing. Miriam is the only one who asks 'should we' instead of 'could we'. She's the voice of reason in a world blinded by hubris.

I think it's important to remember that Santiago was the one behind the Cloning Vats. You know, the one about turning people into cogs in a machine. She be crazy, yo.

As for Yang, I think he does believe what he preaches, he just doesn't give a fuck about anyone but himself. He has bottomless EMPATHY, but zero SYMPATHY.

That said, I think his general musings on nihilism and self-improvement hold a lot of weight as a personal philosophy. It's just that his eusocial model is completely batshit.

Lal was the greatest humanitarian of the bunch, but by god is he dull. Just listen to his description of the Rec Commons of the Peacekeepers.

Which is why I generally like Morgan the best. By god, he aced that Charisma score...

>Its like, lol, okay little girl
>You can have my magic hardhat
>You are now in responsible for the lives and careers of over 10,000 people
>10,000 people are depending on you with their livelyhoods
>Good luck!

I'm not like Yang.
I feel shitty when I do immoral things.

Not him, but explain us all how the fuck you can't combine following things:
Egalitarian utopia
Self-improvement

Because apparently there must be some special, secret magical reason why this is impossible and sadly it only exists in your head

"It was never the streets that were evil" is easily her best monologue. It shows that she is more than just a fundie luddite. She doesn't blame technology itself, but the societal changes they bring.

Now if only her AI wasn't completely dumbfuck....

>Using 3 thousand years old scriptures created by late Bronze Age shephards as a basis of solving problems
>Voice of reason

And before someone says something about "lel, fedoratipping atheists" - I happen to be believing and practicing Catholic. And Miriam still fucking sucks as delusional theocrate.

*Autistic binary*

Why u no cybernetic? U cyber nao. Iz better.

No way fag

Same user as We Must Dissent here.

Her religious scripture stuff is bullcrap. But she also shows that she "gets" people and society. Her technological woes are based on a fear of the authoritarian nightmare it brings, not on it being UNNATURAL GAY LIBERAL ATHEIST

If you self improve to become superior to your peers, the egalitarian society becomes impossible. They are mutually exclusive concepts.

Not the user you are replying to, but that's the deal - Yang doesn't give crap about this or that set of morality. It doesn't matter if you are using religion, sociological reasons, survivalism or any form of agenda to justify your means or goals. Because in all his nihilism, he's also the only leader to openly declare that all that matters is efficiency. Nothing else. Looking for justification is just pointless waste of time and trying to play some stupid "moral card", rather than doing what should be done. And if then those morals drag you down into picking less efficient choices - you've crippled yourself.

If anything, it's Yang's total lack of ANY morals that makes him stands out. The ultimate goal-oriented thinking.

I don't really see what your problem is. Just play as Domai and get all that Eudamonia jazz while also researching things like Ascetic Virtues. You get a paradise while also promoting Yang ideas for the individual.

Here is a plot twist, you mongoloid. EVERYONE improves.
>B-but you can't!
You also can't have ultimate egalitarian utopia. But you can strife to achieve one.

Philosophy doesn't have best by date. It doesn't suddenly turn untrue just because it's old. Miriam asks what being a human means, and that is not edgy.

But Domai, or rather his faction, is entirely about "yeah, sure, we will change the world around ourselves to get better, why should we change?". Eudamonia is all about this as a concept - you are happy, because the world around you allows you to be happy and not because you've learned to be happy regardless

Not the user you are replying to, but well said. Yang's point is that there is no universal law or formula for morality or happiness. It's all about perception.

In his view, you can live the crappiest life imaginable, but you can consciously self-delude yourself into feeling good about it. And if you do that, then that's great. You use less resources while still feeling happy. You have reached the most utilitarian outcome.

So you agree with my point that I the mongoloid and you cannot coexist in an egalitarian society, hmm?

Then play as Yang and strive to promote individual happiness. Again, I don't see the problem here.

>Using religious scripture as a basis of your society isn't bad
Miriam asks to ignore everything and just follow believes, blindly. Because if you are not sharing HER vision, then you are not worth even being called a human and don't deserve that compassion of hers.
I mean it's not a rocket science to realise anyone running fundie group is by default bad.

Let me ask you this - would you be ok with all the same crap as Miriam does if she was instead Miriam Abdullah, using Koran instead of Bible? Or if she was Miriam Goldberg, running with Tora? Because what I've noticed over the years is a MASSIVE projection of people based solely on the fact she's white and Christian.

>Not him, but explain us all how the fuck you can't combine following things:
>Egalitarian utopia
>Self-improvement
Simple. You can't take them to the extremes like both factions do. Hive exists solely for self-improvement of ONE person, Yang. Not so extreme but still uneven self-improvement leads inevitably to formation of elites which following trend of self-improvement focus on securing resources and opportunities for themselves (to improve themselves further) and hamper it for others. Egalitarian society on other hand limits the height of self-improvement but spreads it evenly. Society you have depends on the balance (or inbalance in this example) between these goals.

No, because you are trying now to bend your own arguments. Also, your logic loops aren't even funny.

The original user (but not the one you are replying to) and here is a riddle
Which part of word "utopia" you don't understand?

Her faith is a source of strength for her, it doesn't matter what she believes in.

'U'

I'm too stupid to understand your argument, what chance do I have for self improvement in your egalitarian society? You'll leave me behind with certainty - unless you choose to retard yourself, of course...

I don't think it's about self-delusion. Delusion implicates that you are lying to yourself. And the point of Yang and what he does himself is instead to just ignore the bad parts or the hardship. You don't say to yourself "Oh, it's great that I'm living in an overcrowded bunker". You just don't think about it at all, thus the problem cease to exists.

Granted, it takes a massive mental exercise, but Hive has big advantage over everyone - Yang makes sure the new generations entering the system get this mindset incorporated from the moment they are born. It's like that rogue AI from old Polish short story - "With each generation, there will be less and less opposition, because more and more people will consider the current state of affairs as normal and desirable"
Callous, but efficient.

The only reply you are going to get

>it doesn't matter what she believes in
What kind of dumb logic is that? I guess, being devout satanist and sacrficing people would be okay too as long as it brings her strength.

Are you retarded on purpose? It's what this user said. It makes a FUCK HUGE difference.
Just compare Believers with Cult. The only real difference is the religion they adhere to.

And it changes EVERYTHING about them

...you're incapable of defending your point even to a self professed moron?

What I admire about Miriam is her humane philosophy. It doesn't matter to me personally whether it stems from Christianity or Islam, as that user insinuated.

> 3000 Year old bronze age scriptures
>Practicing Catholic

The Holy word of god would not have an expiration date, except you keep fucking it up papist.

Are you Protestant or just American?

>the word of God, the basis of the christian faith has an expiration date
Francis please leave.

I find it interesting that the "end goals" of each ideology seem to antiquated even in the game.

The Believers for one but even Spartan survival aspect seem so irrelevent when you have nano fabbers and can change the sea level.

What would a modern "good" alpha centauri game look like?

That's because Santiago be crazy. Her only idea is a military and nothing else. And not just a cool, individualist military either. Mass cloning of indoctrinated cyborgs is her deal.

Identical, except Lal's "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master," is even more poignant, and the Free Drones and Data Angels are made into a single new faction, and that faction is full of dribbling anarchist retards.

>What would a modern "good" alpha centauri game look like?
Like the original, just remastered.

You cannot fix something that is perfect. Like the new Planescape:Torment: just fix some bugs and redo the graphics.

>What would a modern "good" alpha centauri game look like?
It would be considered so offensive its developer's buildings would be burned down, designers executed by screeching SJW crowd, their relatives and house pets sterilizied.

Atheist, actually.

American?

Nordic, but I fail to see how that's relevant?

I've seen this weird inclusive mentality in countries where sects weren't historically persecuted or were tolerated for centuries namely protestant countries.

Sparta suffers from planet not being threatening enough.
Because of this their philosophy of having a society entirely centered on survivalism and being ready to make war doesn't feel like it's coming from a place of authentic need in the early game (unless they start next to yang or miriam).
Miriam is very Christian fundamentalist flavored in the game, which feels off given the extremely multinational nature of the mission and the fact that most factions are based on philosophies rather than ethnic/religious communities that dominated on Earth.
I'd tweak her so that her faction is more about preserving the cultures and traditions of Earth in the face of factions led by radicals who want to completely reimagine society. I'd also paint her faction as being generically religious rather than specifically Christian.

More generally I think that the game should have mechanics which reflect the flow of people and information. The importance and threat that this flow poses is already a major theme in the game (and would be even more significant if it was made in today's interconnected world) but it isn't really modeled in game. Perhaps you could have some sort of 'open society' score, with more open societies getting bonuses to efficiency, economy and tech but being more vulnerable to espionage and foreign ideologies.

Agreed.

>More generally I think that the game should have mechanics which reflect the flow of people and information. The importance and threat that this flow poses is already a major theme in the game (and would be even more significant if it was made in today's interconnected world) but it isn't really modeled in game. Perhaps you could have some sort of 'open society' score, with more open societies getting bonuses to efficiency, economy and tech but being more vulnerable to espionage and foreign ideologies.
One way to do that would be having neutral AI cities under Peacekeepers control from where other factions could convert people or get resources from trade, great people/specialists and information. They could serve as neutral ground for ideological warfare and proxy wars.

>Resources exist to be consumed. And consumed they will be, if not by this generation then by some future. By what right does this forgotten future seek to deny us our birthright? None I say! Let us take what is ours, chew and eat our fill— CEO Nwabudike Morgan, "The Ethics of Greed"

This resounds to me the most. Why should we preserve for the future when the future is finite and there's no guarantee they will appreciate what we did? In the end the even the stars will all die. Eat drink and consume.

Well, because you don't want your children to starve is a good reason.

>Already we have turned all of our critical industries, all of our material resources, over to these...things...these lumps of silver and paste we call nanorobots. And now we propose to teach them intelligence? What, pray tell, will we do when these little homunculi awaken one day announce that they have no further need for us?

She is right you know.

>things...these lumps of silver and paste we call nanorobots. And now we propose to teach them intelligence? What, pray tell, will we do when these little homunculi awaken one day announce that they have no further need for us?

Bribe them with nanoopium we drugged them with all since the beginning. One quick fix and they are docile and loyal again as usual.

Why don't you let Nanobatman solve all of your problems?

>What do I care for your suffering? Pain, even agony, is no more than information before the senses, data fed to the computer of the mind. The lesson is simple: you have received the information, now act on it. Take control of the input and you shall become master of the output.

And:

>My gift to industry is the genetically engineered worker, or Genejack. Specially designed for labor, the Genejack's muscles and nerves are ideal for his task, and the cerebral cortex has been atrophied so that he can desire nothing except to perform his duties. Tyranny, you say? How can you tyrannize someone who cannot feel pain?

I would if I could

We must dissent

This.

>The righteous need not cower before the drumbeat of human progress. Though the song of yesterday fades into the challenge of tomorrow, God still watches and judges us. Evil lurks in the datalinks as it lurked in the streets of yesteryear. But it was never the streets that were evil.

Greatest truth, evil is in people and how people use technology.

>Evil is in people
>People breathe air

>Miriam
>Humane
>Le righteus true believers!
>Die heretic!
Truly, Protestants are retarded

You know the major difference between Catholics and everyone else in Christianity?
The utmost focus is put on New Testament and not being cunt, rather than the "wrathful God Almighty, let me smite you for wearing wrong clothes" from the Old one.

>Be Protestant
>Extensively wank about Augustine idiotic philosophy and extensive reinterpretation of Christianity into religion of cunts
>Pretend that's the true spirit of the religion
>Ignore it was just one really twisted faggot who misinterpreted half of the shit and then Luther "rediscovered" his bullshit as "true" and "pure"
Cry me some more about not being faithful, heretic.

>How it's revelant I was rised in a (even if nominally) Protestant country with deeply rooted cultural quirks when I'm looking on a Protestant interpretation of Christianity and why it would affect my perception
I don't know user. I don't know.

No, she's the classic reactionary that is so fucking panicked in any forms of change or something beyond direct control, with easy-to-digest explaination she will instantly start beating the drum of "We must dissent".
This and of course lagging behind the technological race so hard she needs to find some solid excuse for own people why they are still building tinfoil habitats by hand when everyone else is using nanotechnology and AI for that. Because nothing gives better "moral upper hand" than pretending others are just evil and corrupt by not being as weak as you are.

So what, you think ignorance is bliss?
I bet you think the dark ages were a happy and prosperous time, too.

john cena?

The fuck it even has to do with my post?

>The utmost focus is put on New Testament and not being cunt, rather than the "wrathful God Almighty, let me smite you for wearing wrong clothes" from the Old one.
>I will follow the law but the law is in the old OT so I will ignore all that happened. Oh and you cannot divorce if you are cucked even through Jesus said it was okay because reasons.

>No, she's the classic reactionary that is so fucking panicked in any forms of change or something beyond direct control, with easy-to-digest explaination she will instantly start beating the drum of "We must dissent".
>user really thinks it's a good idea to give AI to nanorobots
I bet you think Skynet was a good idea too.

Not even him, but by your logic, we should still adhere to slavery, stone people to death for planting two crops side by side and burn them for wearing clothes made of mixed fibres.
After all, that's all in the Bible.
And precisely WHY you should use millenium old religious scriptures to govern your life

>I will follow the law but the law is in the old OT so I will ignore all that happened
Isn't Christianity about forgiveness and redemption and being able to step over past mistakes and make them right? That's what you should do with old dumb laws.

I bet you don't even know how much of your life is already governed by AI systems, but since prevailing image of popculture, you think the only AI possible is murderous robot/computer trying to wipe out humanity.
Which in my book perfectly fits the image of stupid reactionary that will always cry about progress, not even noticing how he's already using those hateful modern applications

Also, did you at least notice that within reaches of SMAC, AI is considered on par with citizens? Or you've intentionally skipped 1/3 of the game's lore?
Or, since the evil AI is so evil and murderous - this apparently doesn't apply to humans, rigth? Because humans can't use nanobots as a weapon! They are too moral for that.
Oh, wait, they've shouldn't develop them in the first place, since, you know, technology is EVIL!

>I don't know why those applied so instead of researching the reasons I will pretend they never happened, like all laws had the same context or the same motives