What is the singlemost Mary Sue trait?

This.
It's why when people talk about Kvothe in Name of the Wind, I tell them how no matter how mary sue people say he is, he is always fucked over at the end, and almost always because he did it to himself.
He is a born loser, not a mary sue, but people can't see that because they obsess over what he can do, not how he is responsible for his own downfall.
Mostly because the average fa/tg/uy can't comprehend a character that is his own worst enemy, being too obsessed with scrappy underdogs compared to genuinely talented protagonists.

Hidden power

I didn't even refresh, and you not only beat me to it, but just proved me right.

Okay, granted I'm using a more generalized and technically inaccurate definition of Mary Sue, but you have to admit they have a shitload of cliches in common.

The only thing they have in common is being naturally talented at a number of things.
According to that, your classic Renaissance Man is a mary sue, being expected to be skilled at many arts.
Kvothe is great at a handful of things: being charismatic, magic, forging, music, and sex, ie he is literally a D&D bard in a non-D&D setting.
He was taught martial arts, and considered a fair student at it's most generous, but he still spent his time being beat up by a 9 year old girl.
The moment he reveals his heritage, he is automatically on everyone's shitlist, he spent much of his life a poor schmuck, and it's continually brought up, everyone that does like him either dies or turns on him, absolutely every time he's about to make it above his station as not-gypsy scum, he is cockblocked, and I think with the exception of a single instance, it was always his own damn fault.
He could be a prodigy at magic, but he is simply too stubborn and convinced his way is best to actually be excellent at it, and his egomania is turned at him repeatedly and he never learns from the experience. Further, the entire series is him self-narrating his own life, and he openly admits to lying to tell a better story, to the point where he loses everything he is skilled at due to having his Name stripped from him.
Yes, he is a "mary sue", for all the reasons I stated above.
I still try to understand why Veeky Forums hates any protag that is not a brooding warrior or a scrappy underdog that grets by with heart, like in their japanese animes.

Bonus points if that hidden power is something absolutely bullshit and broken like "Accelerated Skill Progress."

If the story cannot function without his or her presence.

Also this.

/thread

When did ladyknights (assuming they're not much more than female knights) become a meme?

I don't think being a female knight inherently makes you a Mary Sue. I had a swearing female Paladin with an alcohol addiction and a penchant for getting into drinking contests, which I'd say is pretty far away from Mary Sue territory.

I think this hit the nail on the head pretty well. I actually think heterochromia can be an interesting physical quirk if done right, but it's associated with Mary sues so much that I never have it in my games

Sounds like a sue to me

And you base this on...

It's a realism thing. A woman would struggle physically if they are in the IRL counterpart of pure martial classes. This applies to most playable races due to their physiology being similar to humans.

Like Monk. IRL Martial arts are divided by weight class and gender because there's no way a 130 pound woman can compete with a 200 pound male of the same skill. What makes people think that said 130 pound female fighter would be able to do basically any damage against an orc or other medium-large to large sized races outside of game mechanics and magic?

I don't really have much against female characters being martial, but it's game mechanics>realism. I'm fine with females being spellblades, paladins, gishes, etc, because it's magic enhancing a physical fighter, and magic basically breaks all the rules and makes it far more realistic.

>A woman would struggle physically if they are in the IRL counterpart of pure martial classes
Not really. You know there actually were female soldiers of varying stripes throughout history, yeah? The difficulty curve is higher without testosterone but if the question is "can they effectively wield the things considered traditional martial weapons", the answer is "yes".

Bear in mind, for most of the women who failed Ranger training, it wasn't the physical portion, it was the stuff related to front-line infantry training, since they hadn't gotten it. And for the women who've passed Ranger training, that was the area where they struggled.

I get why you probably wouldn't see women composing a particularly large chunk of the army, but PCs (and any kind of MC, for that matter) are made of the edge cases. That's why they're prominent characters in the first place. You hear the story of Edmund, the daring rebel who stood up to the tyrannical dictator who'd conquered his town, not Frederick, the guy who stayed behind in the conquered town and just sorta got used to it. So why is it any stranger for a female PC (or significant NPC) to be one of the people who pushed through the difficulty curve?

> there's no way a 130 pound woman can compete with a 200 pound male of the same skill
>of the same skill

That's what you're getting hung up about.
As a male fencer, I fence against women frequently, and while I have the physical ability to overwhelm some of them who are more skilled than I am, many are simply so much better in terms of skill that I'm unable to really do anything.

In D&D, levels are not strictly skill, but represent more of the overall power of the character, and function as a combination of skill and ability. At equal levels, a 200 lb male fighter may be stronger in a purely physical sense, but the 130 lb female has the skill necessary to compensate and apply her strength more effectively. There is not only enough abstraction to allow this flexibility, but the characters even at 1st level are expected to be beyond the abilities of ordinary people, making the question of ultimate realism a moot point.

Also, as to whether a 130lb woman can do basically any damage to an orc or other medium-large to large size, the answer is flatly yes.

I'm defining Mary Sue as a highly idealized character without any major flaws who everyone loves, usually written as a self insert or some kind of wish fulfillment, so I don't see how it applies.

Being universally loved and trusted by everyone but the antagonist(s), even by people who've known the Sue for less than 30 seconds. Bonus points for having all the hot boys/girls gunning for a piece of that sweet poon/D.

I'm aware that there's exceptions to the rule. And I'm not opposed to women in combat positions, I just think it heavily pushes the Marry Sue card, specifically because it's a job that males do better 99.95% of the time, historically speaking.

And yes, player characters are the cream of the crop, which deminishes my dislike a bit, because it can be justified as that. Being so skilled talented that it works. It can make sense in universe, but that creates the problem of the character being abnormally good at things, which brings up the Marry Sue argument again.

I specifically used 'of the same skill level', because it represents a benchmark.

Once you have character's who are abnormally above a set skill benchmark, I think it starts creating a marry sue. I think basically all PCs are Marry Sues to some extent, but pure martial class females really push it.

In your case, the 130 pound female is exponentially more skilled than the 200 pound male, despite them having the same combat statistics. The fact that the female character is so skilled and advanced is what creates the problem. You can easily justify combat stats in game, but with female martial classes, you start reaching into questionable territory, especially.

The in universe skill level of a female fighter has to be so much higher than a male's to justify their power level that I think it starts getting iffy.

Heterochromia, duh.

Being "unconventionally" attractive, which basically means that every male character is in love with her but she simply doesn't know it because she's too modest.

This too. Reminds me of the Mary Sue protagonist of that feminist board game who lived in some strawman rural Christian village, got raped like five times before graduating from high school, spiraled into a network of crime and drug abuse and STILL managed to graduate *two years early* as a *valedictorian* no less.

Bitch, don't make me punch you in your roast beef vagina.

please no. I try so hard to tolerate that show, I have to actively ignore what is perhaps the absolute worst mutator on the old "determination" chestnut

Look, one of the first things you learn about self-defense as a girl is how to use your opponent's weight and strength against him. That's day-one stuff. It's only a slight stretch to say you're specifically learning how to fight men.

>the problem of the character being abnormally good at things, which brings up the Marry Sue argument again.
Being abnormally good at things does not a Mary Sue make, in and of itself. Many, many, many movies start out with a protagonist who's "the best" at what they do. Riddick is the best at beating people up, Will Smith from Independence Day is the best pilot, Link from Matrix Reloaded Revolutions ignore the Neo parts and it's not a bad movie is the best at video games. The issue is more about how, once they're the best at something, how they're challenged.

>You can easily justify combat stats in game
Can you, though?
"I learned how to wear light armor effectively, so now I'm better at picking locks. I learned how to use armor because we defeated a tough monster."

I appreciate that you're not the "WIMMIN CAN'T MARSHULL" type, though, so I'll at least acknowledge that.

Heterochromia at Char Creation is kind of tainted, but I've given characters that I've DM'ed for after char creation if they do something Spooky and supernatural, Like a Warlock pact, or a fucked up magical experiment.
Only if they were okay with it though.
Then again, my players and I are of the opinion that high-level characters should be fucking freaks of nature,

Her pov is written in first person.

>I have not read a book since high school.
FTFY

I once made a heterochromic villain in a game, but it wasn't natural. She'd tare the eyes out of people if she thought they had pretty eyes and replace one of her own eyes with it.

How is being good in a fight a Mary Sue trait?

All that fanfiction you read doesn't count son.

Its not 'being good in a fight' its 'My characters martial prowess is unmatched! They are the greatest swordsmen in all the realms!'

Thank you for not being a retard, user.

>weight and strength against them
Yeah, that's absolutly a thing. And then you look at Judo, which is that turned into a dedicated martial art, and again, men are on top.

>being good at things doesnt make a marry sue
Agreed. However being too good at things starts. My argument and personal question is 'are female pure martials too good at their skillset to maintain a balanced character'. Because that's what it comes down to, and the answer is subjective.

To maintain game stat balance, the ingame justification is that the woman is just really really really fucking good. But then a man who is more or less average in comparison has the exact same combat stats. Dispite them having the same 'stats', the female is far far more skilled, fighting against natural disadvantages and still thriving in combat just the same as the male.

>game mechanics are game mechanics
Basically. I think an ideal system puts realism into its character statistics, having the stats be represented by player skills and attributes. But of course game mechanics will be what they are, a mechanical system for players to reliably use.

I'm also super okay with races with different physiology and sizes being martial females. It's just in the human-like camp that I get a bit finicky, simply because in universe the character has to be so much more skilled than their male counterpart to justify their stats. And again, I'm fine with paladins, spellblades, and other magic/martial classes being female.

Like take a Goliath, they're 7 foot tall hulks basically, a female goliath isn't gonna run into many problems considering they're more physically adept than a human male.

I think the reason heterochromia is so strongly associated with Mary Sues (aside from coincidence, in that Mary Sue characters keep having heterochromia) is that it serves essentially no purpose in making a character more interesting.

Born with no left arm below the elbow? That could be interesting.

Missing a couple teeth? There's probably a story there.

Your eyes are different colors? That's definitely rare, but it doesn't do much to define who you are as a person. It's "special" in the shallowest sense, and Sues tend to be loaded with those kinds of "special for the sake of specialness" traits.

As a rule of thumb I've learned to stop watching a show (usually an anime) as soon as an evil character says "I-impossible!" in regards to the protagonist's abilities.

>Apply this to all the shitty chinese webnovels I've been reading
>This applies to literally every main character in almost every single one of them
Oh man I knew they were bad but I couldn't pinpoint why other than eternal powerlevel wank and writing.

>an evil character says "I-impossible!" in regards to the protagonist's abilities
I love that trope though. Also that's not per se an indicator of the character being a Mary Sue, it can also be some kind of new technique that the antagonist didn't know about, or some kind of plan that turns out in his favor. It's way too broad to be a Mary Sue flag.

It's not a perfect system, but from my experience the times it's been right considerably outweigh the times it's been wrong.

>But unlike the rest of his people his PLOT DEVICE was tainted by DARKNESS and he was corrupted from within! Now a struggle of GOOD VS EVIL takes place WITHIN HIS HEART. He BROODS ENDLESSLY and all the girls want his BIG DARKNESS DICK but he is too busy mourning his DEAD GIRLFRIEND who was killed by his TRAITOR FAMILY MEMBER

Missing out on JoJo outweigh all the good that came and will come from your system

If I'm watching shonen/seinen then it's already out of the ordinary for me. And considering I don't watch much anime to start...

Yeah, the "internal good vs bad" struggle is a good Gary Stu indicator.

Is there any good anime that is neither Shonen nor Seinen though?

If you can believe it, plenty!

It can make for an interesting story. I've got an older brother who got a head injury on the job site, his eye went from blue to dark brown. Been that way for a few years now.

accelerated skill progress is not a bad trope, it's just not used as in "this cherecter is fucking good at this shit, he learns much faster than other" and is used in the "when i try something i become a master of it". Geb from the wizard of earth sea was very good at magic, he was not a merry sue

>Name of the Wind
that book ist still utter tripe though

You missed the glory that was Mob Psycho then

It's like One Punch Man but as a psychological coming-of-age story, with the protagonist being a psychic middle schooler instead of a superhero

I would link a fight but pretty much all of them have major spoilers

can be with poor execution. Good execution has the character lynched for his evil choices. 'Good vs Evil' characters require exelent execution otherwise they're either totally incomplete or total marry sues.

>trying to play a conflicted oathbreaker paladin who abandoned the light in an attempt to save more innocents from the forces of evil
>DM doesn't ever have NPCs respond negatively to me raising the dead and doing morally dubious stuff
>all moral choices are super black and white
>my character just basically a death knight that acts like a paladin cause there's never any real RP opportunities to really go into the whole 'evil for the sake of the greater good' thing
>never actually confronted by anyone over my use of necromancy
>never any consequences for my actions
It's not my fault my character is a Marry Sue, he just literally never gets called out on bullshit he should get called out on.

we get it you love your precious Kvothe, you can stop defending your shitty book now

You're taking the internal good-vs-evils struggle in a more metaphorical sense, which can be done well. I meant it in a more literal sense, like that "I have two sides, nicest guy you'll ever meet and TWISTED FUCKING PSYCHOPATH" meme. Doing something like that in fiction (like actually having an 'evil side' that gives you evil powers) is kind of a Gary Stu trait. Kind of like how in Bleach Ichigo eventually became a half shinigami half arrancar half quincy half dragon half ogre half demon.

Actually, just on the off chance that I may make someone watch it, here is one of the best scenes. Again, don't watch if you don't want to be spoiled

youtube.com/watch?v=oDbhRw99SEU

>physical fitnes meme
You do know that for the most part skill is much more important than phisical strenght right? Shure, at the same skill level str>skill, but i have had my ass hended to me by women who are 1/2 of my wieght and as far as pure str are weeker. Because they were better at said martial art than i was and could use that agients me

Being the obvious self instert, but way better than the original, more than the other self insterts because we all do it to a degree, but a degree only.

oh sure, yeah, that shit tends to get stupid. I feel it can be done right, look at Lycanthropy, but having a sentient split personality that's just 'XD look at me I have tons of powers and don't forget I'm SUUUUUPER evil guys' gets a bit tedious.

My whole point was that if a 200 pound human male and a 130 pound human female had the exact same skillset, the male would win out 100% of the time, and in order for the combat stats to balance out, the female needs to be a ton more skilled than the male to hold her own.

I'm using a formula of physical+skill=result in combat. If physical is say 4 on the male, and that's pretty standard for a male, and he has 4 in skill, which is standard for a human, his ultimate combat result is 4+4=8. 8 is his result in combat.

A female using the same metric, would be 2 physical, and 4 skill, putting them at 6. So to bring the female up to 8, which is the male standard, you need to either pull their physical or skill up 2 points, putting them far above average at either physical or skill for a standard member of their race's sex.

So by thinking in this way, the female is, in comparision to others of their race/sex, far above average compared to a male if the two of them have the same exact stats.

i'm wasnt arguing that it's not possible or reasonable for a female fighter, i'm saying that it stats pushing on Marry Sue teritory when you have characters that are so far above the standard of their race/sex. But, I also think that 90% of PCs are Marry Sues, so there's nothing really wrong with it.

What if I just like the aesthetics of heterochromia?

>My whole point was that if a 200 pound human male and a 130 pound human female had the exact same skillset, the male would win out 100% of the time
Once you bring weapons into the question this completely breaks down, though. The girl would only need a lucky hit to possibly cripple the larger male for life or at the very least send him to the hospital for a couple weeks. The male would still be at advantage, but it would be nowhere as unilateral as on a regulated martial arts fight.

I think you are slightly oversimplifying it. You aren't taking into account different martial arts, styles of fighting etc. A female who has taken some self-defense classes will probably take out a avenge male without being some black belt. I have trained three different martial arts (wing-tsu, capuiera and judo) and i have seen many times women with not much more skills take out guys who were a lot stronger than them. From my experience, strength only comes into play when the skill levels are very similar, or when we are talking about very high leveled fights

There might be other factors to consider, such as weapons, status conditions, environment, etc. A resourceful, wily, or prepared fighter has a substantial edge over the other who isn't.

He's talking about the same skill level

yes, but the forumla later on is a bit bonkers, i allrady said that he is right as far as same skill level fights go

He was also not a particularly good character.

We have a winner. Good show chaps.

ech, i liked him

>any form of "beauty as a curse" or by extension "[positive trait] as a flaw"

Rage pls

>This too. Reminds me of the Mary Sue protagonist of that feminist board game who lived in some strawman rural Christian village, got raped like five times before graduating from high school, spiraled into a network of crime and drug abuse and STILL managed to graduate *two years early* as a *valedictorian* no less.

What?

Marital Supremancy

ctrl+s is your friend

Being the protagonist.

If you capitalize spoilers they break.

I'm not arguing that an odd strike won't connect. I'm going for a broad system thats aplicable in most scenarios.

Physical+skill+stratagy is what determines fights on a basic level. There are ways a woman can win a fight, but on a physical level, the female brain isnt suited for rapid tactical though, and the body isnt designed for athleticism. So two of the three are at a natural disadvantage over a male.

Not saying it cant be overcome, but a female fighter has to be farther above average than a male.

If a man loses a fight to a women, it's because he's inferior at one or more attributes. This can be because the woman is highly skilled/strong/tactical or because the male is bad at athletics/skill/tactics.

In cases irl, a lot of men are afraid to go all out on a woman as well, which undermines my formula to some extent, as the male handicaps himself. You can consider it valid as a contributor or dismiss it, depending on your opinions on the mater.

My entire point is that the male body and mind is better suited for combat than the female mind. Take an averagemale and female, put them under the same physical, tactical, and skills training, and 95% of the time the male will simply be better.

Now differernt training methods, weapons, fighting styles, etc are factors, but a male put through that same training will usually be strictly superior.

>Mostly because the average fa/tg/uy can't comprehend a character that is his own worst enemy, being too...
much that very exact thing. And if they could recognize it, they wouldn't be anymore, their self-awareness would make it eventually sort itself out.

If you can't be bigger and stronger, you compensate by adjusting your fighting style to capitalize on what you do have more of.

So what are women better at combat-wise than men?
I know for starters they're better multitaskers.

>Not saying it cant be overcome, but a female fighter has to be farther above average than a male.

>Vou can play a male or female character without gaining any special benefits or hindrances. Think about how your character does or does not conform to the broader culture's expectations of sex, gender, and sexual behavior. For example, a male drow cleric defies the traditional gender divisions of drow society, which could be a reason for your character to leave that society and come to the surface

And honestly anyone who brings this sort of thing up on the table is most likely That Guy

Go away, Rothfuss.

Also, fuck yourself. Everybody loves Kvothe wherever he goes, unless they're bad guys.

>I actually think heterochromia can be an interesting physical quirk if done right

How? Explain to me how this pointless trait could ever be interesting in any way.

See, I'll give you that one, if and only if the eye that changes stops looking human entirely. Freaks should be freaks, not people with minor cosmetic defects.

I mean i'm just discussing it for the sake of it. I literally dont care if someone plays a 5'1 120 female human fighter with 20 strength. I'm just breaking it down to realistic components for the sake of it.

>but i have had my ass hended to me by women who are 1/2 of my wieght and as far as pure str are weeker.

t. five foot something manlet. If you're as good at fighting as you are at spelling, I understand why you get your ass kicked by girls.

I've beaten up men who were far better than me at fighting, just by brute strength.

>wing-tsu, capuiera and judo
>literally what, a form of dance, and competitive hugging

Wow, truly the most practical and applicable martial arts.

Most martial arts are just dressed up sports, and most people who practise them are no better at real fighting than soccer or volleyball players.

>Your eyes are different colors? That's definitely rare, but it doesn't do much to define who you are as a person. It's "special" in the shallowest sense, and Sues tend to be loaded with those kinds of "special for the sake of specialness" traits.

Which is a great explanation of exactly why I have the rule . One of your eyes is reptilian and the sclera glows a bright saffron in the dark? There is most definitely a story behind that. And people you meet are gonna have an impulse reaction to it too, so it most definitely has an impact on the story. A shopkeep thinks you're bad luck and refuses to do business. A cult thinks you're their patron demon incarnate. You get stopped at security checkpoints a lot.

Anything that's never gonna be relevant is frankly a trait that's wasting space on your character sheet.

White hair. Hands down. Such a lazy trait to just slap on anyone to make them seem importo.

Depends on who's teaching, and what.
For instance, having experienced both, Olympic Tae Kwon Do and practicing an actual style both train and sparr very differently. Techniques have to change quite a bit when you're striking for solidly-landing, fight-ending debilitating injury rather than got-past-their-guard-hand points.

>Depends on who's teaching, and what.
Well, there's no shortage of McDojo's nowadays. Nothing more annoying than some scrawny bitch who got a black belt from a McDojo and thinks she can kick your ass. 'Martal' arts nowadays are entirely recreational unless you're in tournaments (and even then you might find yourself limited by tournament rules when you find yourself in a real life shitty situation. The only martial arts training that really prepares you for that is probably military combat training, because that's actually intended to hurt or kill others).

Yes, some martial arts are absolutely practical and applicable in a real* fight, and I have had my ass duly kicked by a few of them.

Most, however, are just sports. I'm not a fighter myself, which is how I know anyone who loses to me sucks.

*Real as in, you're seriously trying to cause the other guy pain and humiliation, while still avoiding murder charges or serious injury. Strictly speaking, a weapon is obviously the best choice if it's life or death.

Some eye injuries can cause heterochromia but only as much as changing the original color lighter or darker. I may be remembering incorrectly.

No, that's entirely correct.
It's the reason David Bowie had heterochromia, and why one of his eyes was constantly dilated.

I want to FUCK that Elf!

Then she's just an elf

Where I'm from, if you are affiliated with a martial art club, you're allowed one less level for legitimate defense in the eyes of the law

Example: normally, if someone attacks you with a blade, you can defend yourself with a blade too. But, if you are affiliated with a martial art dojo, you're only allowed to defend yourself bare-handed.
(The scale is nothing

>If you're affiliated with a martial arts club and someone attacks you with a firearm, you're only allowed to defend yourself with a blade
Nothin personnel, kid!

To be fair, most people don't have access to guns here, beside actual criminals.

That's dumb. I believe that criminals should expect the probability of being injured, maimed, and if they're doing something really bad, killed.

I mean as long as you aren't abducting and torturing or raping the assailant. No reason to be a monster about it, but if someone care so much about not getting a boo-boo, well they should've thought of not committing a deliberate violent crime.