/HHG/ The Horus Heresy General

I hope I don't make any silly mistakes with the image edition.

Stabby sneks, mechanicum mantas, sexy shadowswords, mad magi, and plane-punching primarchs, all in the previous thread:


>Official HH 7th Edition Errata (Updated January 2016)

What to include in a HH list, how to format it, what makes each legion special (crunch), tactics, Tutorials for Heresy-era minis and more

>HH Books, Novels and Rulebooks galore
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>/HHG/'s Legion demographics

>/HHG/'s allegiances

>Primarch Popularity Poll

>HHG Discord


Will 8th keep /hhg/ great?

No user. Angelus will.

We're doomed.

Whatever happens in terms of them porting age of darkness game rules into any new edition of 40k, I really hope they do finish things off with rules for BA, DA and WS for the current edition. Even if Book 9 had to contain rules for White Scars for both 7th and 8th edition 40k, it would mean we'd have a complete set of rules covering every single legion, the mechanicum/dark mechanicum, auxilia/militia/cults, and daemons. Obviously the problems (under/overcosted units) would be locked in, but it would be a complete edition there for those that want it.

I think it will. We are not affected by any fluff changes (which by the way I don't think is going Age of the Emperor which is a stupid meme) and 7th edition was awful. Honestly I think 8th looks cool and will let me get some friends back to the hobby and finally play 30k. But I understand why people fear changes specially in more competitive levels.

So what do you want from Angelus, peoples? Personally I just want a decent Mechanicum Elites choice other than my Enginseers, since cool as two guaranteed repairs per turn is, you'll almost never wish you spent the other 105 points on two groups. One works well for hanging out with the Magos Reductor, though.

As a BA player here's my wish list/unreasonable expectations. Obviously Sanguinius will be in, but I'm hoping that Amit and Azkaellon are in.

Sanguinary guard of course, maybe some sort of OC terminator unit, possibly the Lamentii guard that are talked about. Don't know what other units we might get.

I'd want balanced rules and Inferno fixing, but they'll never do that, so...
I'm aware I'm asking imposibles.

Honestly toss an FaQ out on a couple things, make Mind Wrath only work on Witchfires not the subacategories for D novas and beams, make having -things to hit only take to 6 at max, remove the misericordia and errata up the ppm of Sekhmet by about 15 or 20 ppm and you're mostly good, save 3++ rerollable BS, but maybe cap that reroll at a 5++ so it becomes less invulnerable.
Did I miss anything there?

What are you working on /hhg/? I'm getting some paint on my grave wardens.

Leman's armour could use a bit of toning down.

>Did I miss anything there?
Everything that's broken outside the thousand sons legion.

I mean, it's not like the vast majority of units were going to melee down a WS9 Primarch anyway, and it's fun to tease the Yiffs about their Primarch only winning due to wearing an inverse freezer. Shoot the bastard like most do to every Primarch, he's barely tougher than Fulgrim at range.

Which are? I got the Praesdium Shields, the random knives. Oh yeah, also give the Secutarii Arc Rifles their proper stats and reword the Magnum Dickbikes so they pay 25 for one of their weapon upgrades per bike.

Adding the finishing touches to my squad of veterans and working on a land raider

>world's fastest death guard
Seriously, you build and paint like a machine

Any of you guys (especially DG guys, pic related) do much Zone Mortalis?

>Which are?
Off the top of my head:

Breachers are shit.
Destroyers are shit.
Recon squads are shit.
Artillery is undercosted, you see medusas in far too many lists.
Quad mortars are too versatile.
Sniper-flamers are stupid.
Deredeo is too close to an auto-include.
Dark angels D3 VP thing.
Iron hands special infantry isn't any tougher than generic units with an apothecary, which are also usually cheaper.
Space Wolves problems with losing special rules for integrating characters into squads, while having to take lots of characters in the army. Also Varagyr are overcosted.
The whole chainaxe points-cost silliness.
Hammerfell ROW is awful.
Night raptors are overcosted.
Blade of perdition is ridiculous. So's the power glaive.
Invictarus suzerins are also ridiculous, and need toning down.
The mhara gal and headhunters (including the generic banestrike rules) are shit.

...and that's just legions, not even going into auxillia (hello malcador infernus) or mechanicum (hello reductor bullshit and 40k grav). And I've probably forgotten loads of stuff. There's a lot more that needs fixing that the thousand sons, basically.

I like it. It's a totally different game with different considerations. I'd say Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, and Salamanders also do extremely well in zone mortalis. The traditional "tough" legions.

>Honestly toss an FaQ out on a couple things
I've always wondered if it should be "a FAQ" or "an FAQ". I lean towards the latter since I pronounce it "eff ey kew".

But yeah, it'd be a great time to give us the FAQ we so desperately need. Or... redo all the red books except the Legions book since it makes sense to wait until the Scars are out.

Does it even make sense for the generic Legiones Astartes book to be separate from the Legions (-specific) book? No one's going to use just one of the two if the remaining legions and Blackshields get written into one of them.

Book 7 had cheaper upgrades than previous books. I think the older, higher points values made more sense but let's at least make them consistent.

Support squads should be more attractive.
Heavy support jetbikes' weapons upgrades are overcosted.
Scorpius might be overcosted.
Stormbird, Thunderhawk, and Mastodon seem overcosted.
Cerberus needs help
Nearly half of the legion-specific Terminators need help.

Literally the only thing there that was in Inferno is the Wolf bullshit, and I wasn't buffing things, or I'd have given Secutarii their S3 Flechettes back and dropped the WC of that Tsons sniper unit power by one, plus a Sagittarium get themselves a 5pt price cut and Relentless to tide them over.

I will admit a bias due to playing Reductor, even if I run Basilisks, but it's specifically Medusae that are undercosted, never had anyone complain about two bassies at 3k. The 40K grav is our anti-primarch kill radius since we have no counter-deathstar, it's very good but expensive and slow as fuck. Be slightly creative and shoot it, the transport is either more than a Spartan with less HP or AV12 side and rear while being gigantic. I admit it could be better cut down to something like 10" range.

Not going to fuck about with underpowered units since I'd just break them in the other direction, but all the other lists have their own problems. Thallax cost more than Custodes with a couple upgrades, Auxilia and Milita's basic infantry infantry is utterly worthless unless used for dedicated transports or made into discount Marines, all that jazz.

Yes, this game isn't exactly balanced, but it's nowhere near impossible to slap some patches on Inferno.
Actually, if I was FW I'd just get the rules peoples together for an afternoon and just go through that giant list of issues, not like publishing corrected unit entries is hard.

Frost weapons not so much. You're paying power fist money for a +1 str. power weapon with MC and specialist weapon. And power fist + 5pts. for the MC power scythe.

>Support squads should be more attractive.

Non-compulsory Troops?

>Scorpius might be overcosted.

I think squadrons might help it. Put it in with the rest of the artillery tanks. That way you have no reason to take a regular whirlwind.

>Nearly half of the legion-specific Terminators need help.

Make them all W2 and able to be taken as Terminator Bodyguard for terminator Praetor/Primarch.

Which version of the Sicaran is superior in terms of having the most tactical applications?

The normal one. It's good against things that jink, infantry, Rhinos and other light tanks, while the Venator is really there to stunlock superheavies. So no contest if the question is which has the most applications.

Thing is though, there are fewer substitutes for a Venator.

Hm. That is helpful. I'm just trying to decide which one to spring for in my Alpha Legion

>Scorpius might be overcosted.
Wut. It's insanely efficient for 115 points.

>make them all w2
5/10, hope you get 4th degree burns you pathetic troll

>5/10, hope you get 4th degree burns you pathetic troll

Don't see you coming up with anything better.

>all terminators are made W2
>SOH players complain
>justaerin made W3
>some other legions' players complain
>red butchers, deathshroud and firedrakes made W3

Show me the "weak" legions specific terminators then : grave wardens ? Gorgons ? Phoenix guards ?

Here's your new dreadnought statline.

Oh look, 2 wound terminators base.

That dreadnought is as tough as mortarion and vulkan stat wise, 8 edition is going to be FUN


So are Marines gonna be M6"?



Here's Guilliman

3+, not 3

That ends up the same as WS/BS4 was before.

>WS is a flat roll, it doesn't matter what you're fighting


Why should only some legion terminators get 2W

Here's tac squad.

Except not affected by enemy WS. Unless they can come up with an even more complicated system for that.

Relatively speaking? Probably Lernaean Terminators for the Alpha Legion.
They're cheap, but only get Stubborn for their 3 point per model increase, they have few special options or abilities. They can take a Conversion Beamer, but a long-range gun on a unit of fairly CC focused Terminators is quite odd.



To be honest, that's probably a good change actually. I did feel leadership was on average too high across the board, and effects that work off leadership were fairly pointless as a result.

There's more than one?

Made my first order, which was for Thousand Sons conversion kits. Slightly regret it though, because I also love the Night Lords and their sorta underdog state. Plus, they have the coolest battlecries.

Almost tempted to try calling ForgeWorkd and asking to change the order to Night Lords kits, but I'm guessing that's not an option. Plus, I feel like Thousand Sons are better for me since they're considerabky cheaper.

>inb4 guardsmen are Ld. 5
>conscripts Ld. 4

Squad broken.

I think part of the problem is they effectively have to buy volkite chargers, and most people don't bother giving their terminators those if they've got the choice.

>One big change is vehicles. These now use the same profile system as everyone else. As you’ll see though, their stat lines are much above what you might expect from a standard infantry trooper. Wounds, for example, are not capped at 10, so don’t be surprised if you see larger vehicles like Land Raiders and Imperial Knights with dozens of wounds.

Perhaps because the salamanders, death guard, son of horus and world eater are already tougher than the rest of the legions and they select the toughest amongst them to form terminator squad ? Besides 2w don't help against power fists. i'm a sallie player and i'd rather have cheaper but 1w termie squads over the super expensive firedrake


How many will fucking titans have?

>warlord titans with 100 wounds
>psi-titans regen 33 on average
It's a good day to be a princeps.

So why aren't all of their terminators W2?

Lots of stuff.
Leman Russ' armour, tactical Vikings shitting cheap power weapons, Sekhmets having 2W in the first place, motherfucking Scoria, a bit of the Tribune of Mankind, Gorgons not having 2W or being T5 base (2W better), DA's penality is too severe while Wolves have like 2.5 worth of LA rules and Sweeping Advances aren't a fucking penalty, neither do the TS have real penalties to their Mutable Witchery tactics, among a few others.
Also, Veterans are simply too good and there's little reason to bring Tacticals instead of grabbing a Delegatus or PotL

Why not do both as allies?

I'm pretty sure Custodes user and Death Guard are the most prominent painters/builders.

Didn't Custode user just post his Jetbikes yesterday? The day they ARRIVED?

also true, but even if you discount that, the AL terminators are essentially something you can build using normal Legion Terminators, Stubborn is good, as is WS5, but it doesn't really make them feel like the Legion Specific unit they're supposed to be.

>or mechanicum (hello reductor bullshit and 40k grav)
Also this. Their troops now shit anti tank. That amount of haywire was a mistake. And yes, Shas, I'm talking about the Vultarax as well.
Also, make quad mortars 0-2 or something, and literally both remove the Deredeo and grant the Boxnoughts a buyable +1AV upgrade or something like that.
>IF tough
I won't deny they're good at it, but it's not because they're tough. They're just good at it, since with a bit of imagination everything is a boarding operation, just like how Morty thinks everything is in space and rams it with a starship.

Forgot to add that within their termie squads there is another layer, to be a deathshroud you have to be selected by mortarion, to be accepted amongst the firedrake you need to be tough both mentally and physically, the justaerin are number less than a 100 and as such the selection process isn't open to every terminator within the legion and the red butchers are little more than rabid dogs, lost to the nails.
Not every terminator meet these conditions, they're not the symbol of their legion for nothing

I say fak :^)

>if I was FW I'd just get the rules peoples together for an afternoon and just go through that giant list of issues, not like publishing corrected unit entries is hard.
I do wonder why they never do that. Bam, corrected in less than a month.
FW Martial Hubris.

>Strength and Toughness are still with us, and still use an opposing value principle (so much higher Strength will still wound on 2+, low Strength will wound on a 6+), and these aren’t capped at 10 any more either.
>and these aren’t capped at 10 any more either
>and these aren’t capped at 10 any more either
>and these aren’t capped at 10 any more either

>Wants everyone to have 2W termies and yiffs to have MC stolenscythes
Literal Ass Cancer Comunism.

If ID remains the same, then that means that Dreads can oneshot Castellax and Archmagi. There goes any reason to play Cybernetica over an IH dread list, especially when they have the same stats.

Like, a whole Legion :^)

ID is probably going to be replaced with Damage, so high strength attacks will do multiple wounds.

Also, imagine what a leviathan's stats will be like.

Exactly this. If you want power fists on top of that then it's hideously expensive for a job the regular termies could do.
I'd give them Chosen Warriors, base combi-bolters with free Banestrike, and access to 5pt Volkite chargers, as well as a Volkite Culverin (like the HWS squad) as their heavy weapon instead of a Conversion Beamer.
Perhaps that'd do it.

>i'm a sallie player and i'd rather have cheaper but 1w termie squads over the super expensive firedrake
...But you have them? You can give Storm shields to regular Cataphractii termies. Don't even need to give them meme hammers, power fists will do.
It's cheaper than the Fists version I think.

>Wants yiffs to have MC stolenscythes

You do realize they already got them, right? It's not a question of wanting anything, it's already a thing.

>red butchers are little more than rabid dogs, lost to the nails.
That makes them having 2W even less sense. It'd translate into 5 AP2 attacks per dude and FnP...And they do have that, plus Fearless and extra charges. Maybe they should have a better FnP, only one wound and Rending or Furious Charge so that power fists don't counter them and people have a reason to give them lightning claws instead of double axes.
Because srsly, why would anyone give them double claws when they have axes available?

I'm not sure about removing one wound from Firedrakes, but Gorgons should have two wounds (Bikes are the T5 IH squad), while Justaerin should be cheaper and only have a single wound, while Horus and Abaddon can bring a 2W speshul Justaerin squad or something.

Return Scythes, ya thieving bastards.
>WE are the gladiator legion
>Their axe is AP3 Shredding Unwieldy, while the SW's is AP2 @ In3 & Mastercrafted.
Does anyone use Caedere weapons, besides meteor hammers?

Sorry, meant to say the Scorpius is undercosted. Bleargh.

Though I don't think cost is the problem - I think artillery is just too good. It should be good at pinning (which should happen more) but not vaporizing fully armored squads, or even tanks.

Phoenix Termies are disputed; no consensus there. But most people agree about:

The UM ones (good but so pricey no one takes them)

I wrote some rules for my Biologis forces to give them a little flavour.
It's split into some chunks of stuff, but do these look too OP?

Genetus Storm Maniple, subdivision of Ordo Reductor. Can use any FoC that works with the limitations, unlike Matrix of Ruin.


- Knowledge takes precedence - While perfectly willing to fight when required, the Genetors are still scientists at heart, and refuse to leave sole command of vital operations to the Unmaker Cohorts. Must take an additional HQ choice, which must be some variant of the Magos/Archmagos Prime.

- Aversion Protocols - Army must contain either two or more Adsecularis Covenant or Militia Levy squads. An army that contains one cannot contain both types.

- The Sealed Force - Haywire weapons in a Genetor army are reduced to 4+ glance, 6 pen.

- Preserve and Extract - Krios, Secutarii and Myrmidons are reduced to 0-1 choices (for both types of Krioae, Secs and Myrms, no "one squad of Secutors, one of Destructors"). Lose the ability to fire normal Medusa shells or to take Demolisher or Dual Melta arty tanks.

- The Thralls Unleashed - Automata of ANY kind are 0-1 choices per HQ choice, no Thanatar or variants allowed. They must be deployed attached to one or more HQ choices, regardless of having or lacking Patris Cybernetica, and the ICs can't leave that unit voluntarily. If the HQs attached to them are killed, they immediately go Malifica.


- Masters of Flesh - Poison and Fleshbane weapons carried by this army gain Shred and enemies must reroll successful Feel No Pain rolls. Units with an Independent Genetor character with the Mechanicum faction gain 6+ FnP or a +1 to existing FnP.

- Analyse and Discard - Enemies in combat with Adsec or Levy squads that are under 25% starting strength can be targeted by Blast weapons. If the enemy successfully wipes out an Adsec or Levy squad in melee, the Genetor army gains Preferred Enemy against the enemy units involved in that combat.

>great frost blades become MC paragon blades

Also, don't worry, user, 8th will bring you ASM, so even AP3 has its uses in dealing with any sort of armour. And just think about your chainaxes, when you not only wound better but also reduce target save by like 2 or something. And all that for free!

Todays progress on my contemptor.
>inb4 my freehanding is shite

Oh yeah, the Vulturax are b& from that army list, and allied HQ units don't count for the FnP or Boop restrictions - No FnP Ogryns from a Force Commander.


- Forged Guardians - The Cybernetica/IC units have no need for Cortex and autopass LoS attempts for their Magi.

So what do you guys think? Removed a lot of the AV capabilities, but you still have Lightnings and melee. In return, your tarpits lose their ability to hide enemy units for long and enemies that work their way through will meet barrages of bio-weapons that care not for endurance or bravery.

What should I do for Assault cannons on Tartaros and normal marines, rotor cannons?

To be honest, chaiaxes should either be stronger or have save modifiers, but not both.
I do want save modifiers in the game, precisely so that AP3 weapons still have an use and AP2 isn't such a premium game changer. Smooth transitions are fine, don't you think?
I was thinking about AP4 Autocannons and Heavy Bolters, and I think the save modifying mechanic would do wonders to the game.
Too bad they said it will use 7E forever, huh?
>Sekhmets gain +2 ML, force weapons and +1W with only +2pts per termie over Lerneans
Blighnade used to be based, wtf happened man? Even the court of the Crimson King feels a lot like a formation.

>barrels not drilled
>exhausts not drilled


Now i have to get the drill, shit

Ya dun goofed kiddo.

nice painting though

If we go by the dreadnought, a Warlord Titan should have around 80 wounds.

>Primarchs move 8"
>Curze is going to move 16" then charge with fleet

I bet 10 bucks that the charge distance is going to be the movement value*2

>Sanguinius charges across half the board

I just realized that if their Galvanic casters retain a profile even vaguely like they are now Peltasts in 8th ed will be even more absurdly awesome due to massive AV ability. Current profiles would let a 20 man squad on lucky dice rolls glance a few HP. 8th ed they will hammershot it to bits the instant they have line of sight to it.

Of course, given the rules they have mentioned so far a squad of Guardsmen armed with bare fists stand a realistic chance of punching it to death on a charge with zero losses.


I like the helmet swap, but I don't think you should have filled in the area around it, looks stuck in place now. As it obviously can't be changed physically at this point, maybe paint a black semicircle around the helmet to represent a rotating stage type thing?

Remind me of that dark crusade build that could go at 500kmph

>a squad of Guardsmen armed with bare fists stand a realistic chance of punching it to death
I'm guessing the S/T table will require 9+ (two sixes in a row) for that. And the bonuses you get for charging might not include an extra attack.

S3 vs T7 has them punching away 2-3 wounds on a dread, hopefully there is a new 'to wound chart' otherwise:

>Bjorn barely survives his brutal melee with a squad of rioting civilians
>finally the feudal world beer hall has been secured, many of his fellow ancients lie fallen
>lurking in the rafters is his doom, ready to pounce
>Ragnar cries out a warning but too late
>"Above you Fell handed, beware! A ratling!
>"He has a board! WITH A NAIL IN IT!"
>Bjorn looks up a split second before the rusty nail enhanced chair leg cleaves his sarcophagus
>"Finally i can rest"

I remember reading in the NL trilogy a handful of prisoners was able to ruin a thunderhawk with what they found in said prison.

Aren't IF effectively toughness 5 with the right ROW? Plus storm shield vanilla terminators are handy.

What was the novel where peons throwing rocks took down an Eldar tank?

All this means is that things are resolved quicker. I for one welcome the quick death hammer. Maybe I'll get more than a single game in a night.

I'm assuming you've given the guardsmen +1 attack on the charge to get that result. Do we actually know if that'll still be a thing in the new edition?

Don't remind me of C.S Goto.

Fucker had a terminator backflipping on a land raider while shooting at an eldar who was also backflipping on another vehicle.

Also, if I remember right, the eldar pick up and use human weapons because they like them more.

In AoS, can units not in base contact contribute attacks?

>guardsmen all link together to form a massing guardsman that walks and punches out a knight.