So, the new statlines are out. Vehicles now have wounds

So, the new statlines are out. Vehicles now have wounds.

I'm sad initiative is gone but I guess we still have to wait and see how that plays into the mechanics. I'm strangely okay with the new wounds on vehicles thing because given that they suggest that Imperial Knights have dozens then we won't see vehicles go down to massed small arms fire that easily.

As a SOB player I do like the implication that my meltaguns will rip through like d6 wounds or something.

Yeah that'd make sense, I was apprehensive at first but I hadn't really considered vehicles getting saves. On another note as a DA player, the fact that terminators are now 2 wounds is great, I can only hope they're back to saves on 2d6 and then I can make my Deathwing relevant again.

>Terminators are finally W2

>still only t4
So close
And yet so far

needed to be 3 wounds or t5

As a SOB player, the whole 'Multiple wounds on anti-tank weapons' is kinda huge for me. As well...loads of meltaguns to go about and multi-wound guys who can't be killed by Str 8 forcing instant death are generally a damn pain.

Deathwing knights get T5 through fortress of shields

It looks like they cribbed a lot from KoW.

Makes me wonder if they're just going to replace "Instant death" with multi wound weapons.

My guess is they won't be much better. Anything that beats 2+ probably does multiple wounds.

Oh boy... Keeping track of two dozen wounds is way easier than keeping track of three... I love the new simpler less bloated rules...

They sort of had wounds already, in Hull points.
Now they basically just committed to removing AV which was a cool, but kind of burdensome rule.

>I'm strangely okay with the new wounds on vehicles thing

The problem is going to be keeping track of it all. I'm not looking forwards to having to track damage on seven 8-10 wound vehicles at once.

>tactical dreadnaught armor
>actual dreadnaught armor

It is easier. People were using dice to mark hull points already.

Now you, presumably, don't have to remember stunned/shaken/immobilized rules.

>tactical dreadnaught armor
>T4 2 wounds
>actual dreadnaught armor
>T7 8 wounds

My body (and bawkses) are ready

So, what, now you use 6 dice to Mark health? Use a handy dandy health bar? Low values were important because large numbers are hard to keep track of in the imagination!

>People were using dice to mark hull points already.

Which works well enough if they can be recorded on a single D6, but farting around with larger D10/D20's, or stacks of D6's, is going to be a real pain.

>picking up a d20 and putting it down on a different number sure is gonna hard

Are you literally stupid?

[Spoiler]Viable penitent engines[/spoiler]

>Confirmed for never playing a game that uses anything but D6's

I was already using 2 dice, one for hit points and one to mark shaken/stunned/immobilied results.
If they have 12+ wounds it might get a bit annoying. But then I probably deserve it for playing Lords of War and shit.

Muh dick

New GW is actually good

I play combined arms IG. This is making me worry. I've survived since 3rd ed. 8th is the only one that's ever got me nervous.

And what if it has more than 20? And what about people who don't have d20? You're going to make them go out and buy an unofficial dice just for counting wounds?

Have fun with those LD6 guardsmen.

The fuck? 2d6 is not difficult.

Dreadnaught have 8. It's not unreasonable to think actual tanks will have 12+.
The fact of the matter is that you can make all kinds of excuses but this is a serious oversight in a system that is meant to cut down on bloat.

Could always go the MTG rout for player health, keep a start card handy for each large units and move a marker down as necessary. This could also be made up to include the rules for the death spiral that big units now suffer

>changing BS to #+ instead of ((7-TN)/6)
Thank God


>more cards
>cards for every unit
Even worse
On a personal level I doubt I will have a huge problem with it, maybe a slight inconvenience, but I'm playing devil's advocate here.

What about my sweet BS of 6 or higher?

and by it I mean huge woundpools, cards are stupid, sorry

Commissars dude. I already got that covered. Also Ld. 6?!? The fuck. These aren't conscripts.

Didn't they have 3 Hull points previously? I don't think actual tanks, except maybe Landraiders will have 12 or more.

Still it might be fun to model some groves in monsterous creature's bases for all the dice they'll need.

Marines are LD7 now.

Presumably just shown as 2+/4+ instead of BS 8.

>unofficial dice

If marines are LD7, guard will be at least LD6.

>tfw LD5 conscripts

Just saw that. Fucking Marines with Ld. 7. The Astarties of old are spinning in their graves fast enough to power small towns at this point.

Purely for the sake of argument, would a card with a ticker for large models really be any bit harder than tracking current vehicle damage?

I suppose a lot of this also comes down to how many large units we'll be fielding now. 3 vehicles/MCs with cards wouldn't be bad, but yeah that could clutter quickly.

What if moral checks are just 1d6 now?

We don't know how leadership checks will work, or what modifiers they may be subject to. Not worth panicking yet....

2W is good, 2W with re-rollable saves would be better

>implying ATSKNF won't mitigate this

GW won't let Marines be shit.

Meanwhile Guardsmen are probably Ld. 5. Yay!

I honestly felt bad for the bucket heads but you're right.

Don't worry, NuMarines will be LD9.

Holy shit that would be awesome, it would fairly represent the troops with higher leadership to be the ones that never yield/surrender like veteran marines/GK and it will only mean that they fall back on rare circusmtances

i kinda dig it

hope they nerfed save mods

marines will be even weaker now

if bolters and stuff have even a -1

>mfw people can't get their heads around using a combination of dices, pens and papers, to keep track of all of their wounds

Come on, it's not that hard.

That would be nice. Give them a lot of wounds but a mediocre save and you'd have an interesting thing that plays different to dreadnaughts.

>WS 3+
>BS 3+

I would like to know how no initiative will work. So who charges strikes first, ok. What about the next round of combat? Will necrons strike at the same time as some eldar bossfaggot?

That's just fucking stupid.

They can be shot to pieces with bolt guns...

Was it really so hard to have an armour value to ensure that weapons had to be a certain strength to hurt them? Are there people out there that wouldn't play because there is 13 pages of rules instead of 12.

Fuck me.

Maybe thisor 0+ with 1's always failing, as an bonus against modifiers to hit.

So, as the game has armour modifiers now and everything can hurt anything. I would say it would take about 100 boltgun hits to kill a dreadnought.

6's to wound then a 4+ save.

We Sage of Smeg now.

My guess is that the unit with the higher movement goes first.

Learn to sacrifice your units to achieve victory, omae.

Depends on the wound chart. S4 might not be able to harm T7 anymore.

>"There are also no Super Heavy Vehicle rules, as such. With the stats going above 10, the system is now an increasing scale, which means models that previously fell just shy of super-heavy status, the Gorkanaut for example, can now punch at the appropriate weight, and become much more survivable."
>Punch at the appropriate weight.


>orkz will be LD 4
>along with Tyranids
It's getting worse by the second!!!

everything can harm everything

>Was it really so hard to have an armour value to ensure that weapons had to be a certain strength to hurt them? Are there people out there that wouldn't play because there is 13 pages of rules instead of 12.

armor values were tried and were a failure

Yeah, there is a difference between 'Can hurt' and 'Is practical'. Still, might get a wound or two out of your bolt guns while firing the anti-tank weapons at it.

It can but it would take about 100 bolter hits. Bolt weapons will mostly just scratch the pant job.

They've apparently come out and said 'everything will be able to hurt everything', which leads me to assume the S to T chart is largely unchanged. So they'll be wounding on a 6.

The problem is of course that Conscripts firing with orders will blow it away in a single turn.

Nah, it will be AoS rend system most likely, so now bolters, shuriken and pulse rifles will be rend - now

>They can be shot to pieces with bolt guns...

In the same way you can shoot riptides to death with bolt guns. It is possible but it won't happen unless you line up over a hundred marines.

How many conscripts are you considering? As that would take a shit tonne of hits.

Please point out the system in 40k that uses d20s.
That means they are not officially supported within 40k.
That means people will have to buy them.

Imma go with charging unit strikes first and then to-me to-you until one side is dead or breaks. No more getting tarpitted for multiple turns

Well they come in 50's.

I'm less bothered about the walkers and more worried about the fact that a Predator can also be killed this way, which really does make no sense.

100 boltgun shots = 67 hits =11 wounds (given the to wound roll is 6+) = 4 unsaved wounds.

that means its 200 boltgun shots that you need in order to kill a single dread. if you want to waste that much firepower onto it, go for it.

If I had to guess chargers strike first, some weapons will have always strikes last. Weapons or units might have Always Strikes first, with other units having Always Strikes Firster and Always Strikes Firstest, making Initiative be a 0-3 sort of stat, with 1 being default.

It's possible. But at a 3+ to hit, 6+ to wound, 3+ save, you need 27 shot to plink a single wound.

It might not be perfect, but that's why it's an abstraction.

>The dreadnought has Ld 8

Time to fail.

Assuming boltguns don't knock down the dreadnought's 3+ save, it'd take 216 shots for muhreens with bolters to kill a T7, W8 dread.

If boltguns have -1 save modifier, which seems likely given their statement about weapons working more like how they do in the fluff, still takes 144 shots to kill it. 108 shots if they have a -2 modifier and the dread needs 5's to save, though that seems unlikely.

So freaking out over how a dread can be 'shot to pieces with bolt guns' is just hysteria.

They'll probably get the dreadnought rule from the battle of vedros were only certain weaponry could harm vehicles
>riptides and wraithknights will get this too

How the hell do you quantify that? Nigger they were in the game for over a decade. I never once saw someone complain about them UNTIL the possibility of change in 8th came up.

That would make close combat very very killy.

>Well they come in 50's.

Yeah, if you want to pay a damn lot more for them than the other guy paid for the dreadnaught.

8 wounds, wounding on 6s, saving 2/3 of the time and only being hit 50% of the time. You are looking at like 288 shots to actually kill the dreadnaught.

You never saw the endless monsterous creature vs walker talk?

OOOOR who ever's turn it is goes first.....

The biggest IF now for vehicles seems to be how the to wound chart changes. If we take the statement everything can hurt everything literally does that mean 6 always wounds on up indefinitely or do we see something like high ballistic skill in the current edition in reserve.

4+, 5+, 6+, 6+ then 2+, 6+ then 3+, on up with each stage of difference?

> Dreadnought survives 3 direct lascannon hits.

> Private Jenkins comes along, gets lucky with his lasgun and kills it.


That'd be the ez way to do it.

AV was always goofy.
Pre-hullpoints you had a chance of vehicles tanking absurd amounts of damage, or blowing up on the first shot to an unlucky roll.

Hull points made it better, but it was just a half step towards wounds. with some "vehicals" getting wounds.

That's a different story and has more to do with MCs and Tau than AV.

bikers the absolute rape

>t's possible. But at a 3+ to hit, 6+ to wound, 3+ save
(4/6)(1/6)(4/6) = (1/13.5), expected. 27 shots would be expected to do 2 wounds.

It's lasted as long as wraithlords have existed, as wraithlords are so much more effective at tanking hits than dreadnoughts because they didn't have the 'Press here to explode' that could randomly happen.

Works for me.
>Three lascannon shots tear open the dread noughts armor, leaving the beast damaged but still functional
>Private Jenkins, by the emperor's mercy scores a hit on the dreadnought's exposed pilot.

For whatever it's worth.

>BS 3+ means 2/3 of shots hit
>S4 vs T7 (probably) means 1/6 of hits wound
>Sv 3+ means (probably) that 1/3 of wounds are unsaved
>2/3 * 1/6 *2/3 = 4/54
>8 wounds
>108 bolter shots to kill a dreadnought assuming no other modifiers and everything else works the way it did in 7th
>marines can fire up to 2 bolter shots per turn (probably) using rapid fire
>assuming six turn games it takes 9 marines the WHOLE GAME to kill a dreadnought, meaning the deadnought is already tying up its points cost in enemy models (probably).

>They can be shot to pieces with bolt guns...

Just like Riptides. Congrats, dread, you're as shit as a Riptide.

My guess is probably retaining with who charged. The unit that charged will attack first in the combat, for as long as the combat lasts.

through dumb luck Private Jenkins shot through the vision slit and hit the MIU unit causing the dread to do a short tap-dance routine before falling over and shutting down its life support systems

Didn't that happen in one of the Gaunt's Ghosts books? They used an overloaded lasgun as an improvised explosive to kill the pilot of a torn open chaos dreadnaught.

LotR had 6+/4+ after 6+ which seems like the most logical progression after a 6+ being half as likely as 5+

derp, I'm wrong, you're right
should've been 2/6 for the save, and 27 shots to expect one wound.

>Ld. 4

Think you mean Ld. 2. And Mob rule works by giving you +1 per 10 orks in a unit.

Morale is gone, you miss that bit of info?