The literal state of BTC

How can something that is utterly useless be a store of value?

The absolute state of corecucks lmao

Over 55% of all the wallet addresses has a balance equal or lower than the current fees.

Your store of wealth is being eaten up by fees.

> And then I paid for my soy latte with Bitcoin Cash.

I can't tell anymore if this is mass delusion or a very elaborate prank

>utterly useless
Wanna know how I know you're poor? Because you think a $30 fee makes it useless.

>useless for buying coffee
Ok.

>useless for buying real estate, gold, transferring high amounts without gov't knowledge
It's the world's most secure system of payment and any transaction over $1000 between two parties has less than 1% fees. It is still an incredible store of value; you're just priced out because you are a pajeet. That is why you have Bitcoin Cash, kind of like how there is Apple and there is Lenovo. Lenovos do everything a Macbook does and more for cheaper. How many Lenovos do you see in your average college class?

>store of value
>can't be used for transactions when it's selling point is being a decentralized transaction processing system.
Collective delusion.

Coffee shop nu males need to be rounded up and exterminated. They are even worse than women in tech. They actually killed bitcoin trying to turn it into a coffee payment system. I fucking hate these normie fucks i swear to god.

Im in that boat. I trusted bitcoin and have many small balances.

Cant cash them out until Lightning fixes literally everything instantly

Chinese miners are getting greedy as fuck is why.
it's why segwit2x is now being floated. Fuckers are scared of btc cash

Bugman Cash

Dear bitcoin user
Our fees are so high we need you to open a Lightning channel first. So please pay 30$ up front before making any other payments

Oh and 30$ next weej when you close the channel

t. Core

>transaction over $1000
Great for all those daily $1000 transactions. lmao at your delusion, cuck.

>poor ass fucks can't spend their shit
Good. They need to keep it locked up because they can't afford to use Bitcoin right now. Assuming you aren't a fucking millennial twat, I'm sure you remember when TCP/IP, networking, and the Internet rolled out. Everything else, Netscape, Myscape, etc., that relied on the backbone could boom or bust, but the core network topology itself lasted forever and exponentially gained adoption and usage. Bitcoin is that, it attracts the majority of developers, its widely held as the premier and safest asset in the crypto class, it has the most hash rate by a wide margin, and it has brand value. Other people will experiment, but ultimately the true workhorse of the entire system is the bitcoin protocol, and as the next developments of multi-sig wallets, schnorr signatures, and the rest of the emerging cryptographic field are implemented, BTC will redefine "money". If you want to get in on daily waves, buy and trade altcoins. If you want to rise with the tide, just keep 1-5% of your net worth in BTC.

Which daily transactions are being done with cryptos currently?

Funny, I have my lightning network node set up running from my Samsung S7 right now on testnet. I'll probably attempt a mainnet node over winter break. You'll be able to use my node to connect to LN-enabled exchanges, so you're welcome, and thanks for the fees.

>hurr email is so great for all those daily "instant communications" you need to send. lmao at your delusion, emailcuck.

Ver men are vermin, fuck off BTrashers.

kek

>transactions aren't a key feature of crypto currency

Wat

>poor ass fucks can't spend their shit
Many of those addresses belong to miners and pools.

We are the ones keeping the network running, but the fees for our payouts forces us to mine our own transactions, ignoring everyone else.

I don't see how this is substainable long term.

But... but... "muh digital gold"

>It's the world's most secure system of payment

Wow. You are beyond obtuse if you actually believe this.

Bitcoin is not insured. It can be stolen, hacked off exchanges, lost to a failed hard drive, or sent to an incorrect recipient - and there is absolutely ZERO recourse.

wow is this FUD or real? are btc transactions that high?????

I mine at F2Pool and all that's happened is that I get paid out every 4 days instead of every day. The largest BTC pools are highly influenced by Jihan, but no one is unable to collect their payment unless you're mining with a CPU or GPU like a fucking poorfag, in which case get lost your hardware does not belong on the BTC mainnet.

>i don't see how this is sustainable* long term
The mainnet blockchain is never going to be a viable payment layer. It is a security layer that gives Bitcoin the valuable architecture of a decentralized cryptographic network. There are no transaction fees for swapping a 1 BTC paper wallet back and forth; similarly transaction fees can be substantially lower with the lightning network payment layer while still having the security of the underlying BTC mainnet blockchain.

>reddit spacing.
Go back. And wtf is crypto if not digital gold? Who is using it out at businesses on a day to day basis?

>it can be stolen
Anything can be stolen if you're a moron about protecting it.

>hacked off exchanges
This is true about anything you bring to exchange markets, and this is ultimately the exchange having sloppy security protocol rather than Bitcoin.

>lost to a failed hard drive
This isn't really an objection now that the main BTC user isn't a redditor on his mom's laptop

>sent to an incorrect recipient
When you find the money that insures against being a moron, you'll be the next Satoshi.

Crypto is the future, bitcoin is not.

>digital gold

I can LITERALLY transact faster in gold than I can in BTC. It's far more akin to digital LEAD.

LOL if you pay more than 20sat/b you are a total faggot.

Daily reminder than Bcash shitheads are currently paying 3 times MORE than Litecoiners for a slower transaction over a scamcoin blockchain...

Wrong; you can only transact in gold faster because you're shedding security precautions. In your case, you're just fronting gold to the counterparty in exchange for whatever you're buying, but you have no insurance that you'll receive that payment except by agreeing to transaction fees and settlement layers that slow your transaction back down to 30 - 90 days. By the same logic, just exchanging 1 BTC paper notes would eliminate the transaction fee and time if people were willing to trust the note was good for 1 BTC.

real

dedi.jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#24h

>Anything can be stolen if you're a moron about protecting it.

The hell you say. You can't steal money from my bank account. And you sure as shit can't steal my house.

>This is true about anything you bring to exchange markets

Really? How do you steal a stock certificate? Do tell.

>This isn't really an objection
It most certainly is.

What the actual fuck are you on about? I can drive an oz of gold to my local coin dealer or jewelry shop, sell it, and be inside a Walmart making purchases inside of 30 fucking minutes. And I won't be standing in the checkout aisle for 4 fucking hours waiting for the money to transfer either.

Now show the fee change in terms of sats, idiot.

>Crypto is the future, bitcoin is not.
That statement applies to BCash was well.

Probably.

thats one bitcoin fee try to send 20k cash for less than 200 dollars faggot i know your 12 but try to send it over sea for less than 500 dollars pplus the 20 ppercent tax you get hit with

>you can't steal money from my bank account
Wat is identity theft?
>you can't steal my house
Debatable, but sure. How liquid of an asset is your house?

>how do you steal shares
A cold bitcoin wallet is less likely to have bitcoins forcibly hacked from it than your brokerage account. And let's not forget that 2-4% of your net worth in fiat, including shares and cash, is stolen from you each year as inflation, to say nothing of property and capital gains taxes that turn every asset you think you "own" into an asset you essentially lease from the government in exchange for them agreeing to protect that asset from being stolen from you.

>failed hard drives mean it'll never work
Today's SSDs are highly reliable; the entire IT sector has spent decades figuring ways around hard drive failures; you can always use paper wallet for a portion or all of your bitcoins. If you're objecting to Bitcoin because of the potential of hard drive failures; you should object to anything other than hard United States dollars in cash up front, and (you) are frankly a luddite moron.

Yeah although if Roger and his boys keep this shit up it could wreck the crypto space as a whole. He is so set on being right that hes willing to destroy it all.

Right now buy an oz of gold from the same coin dealer and then do it again and tell me how much you paid in fees.

Your bank account can be frozen at any time the bank wants to. It wouldn't even be called "stealing" they can just choose to take it from you.

Your house that you bought and paid for is actually not really yours. You always a renter as if you don't pay your property taxes, your house will be taken from you as well.

If you secure your bitcoin, no one is taking it from you unless you hand over the keys personally.

One of my friends got his bank information stolen. A their transfered all his money to another account. Do you know what happened? They reversed the transaction. He got all his money back; the their got nothing.

In Bitcoinland, your money is as good as gone. No one can reverse anything.

He is right.

Price went up and so did the Satoshi value

Either you choose to trust government or you choose to trust yourself.

You lose your cash on hand, no one refunds you. You lose your bitcoin, no one refunds you.

But if you trust in yourself to be responsible with it, then it can not be taken from you. Trusting government might be fine for most, but some would rather trust in themselves as some people do get screwed over by government.

>Today's SSDs are highly reliable; the entire IT sector has spent decades figuring ways around hard drive failures
/g/entooman here.

Solid states fail more often and more violently than HDDs.
At least you can scrape a spinning disk with ddrescue but a botched SSD is hopeless.
Overwrite it and give up, it's gone.

I have a small pile of failed solid states, with various issues, and a big array of spinning rust with a few bad sectors here and there.

That's great for your friend, mate. You know what that requires? A centralized payment hub coordinating with a broader settlement layer. You're right, on the bitcoin mainnet blockchain, once a transaction is confirmed there's no backsies. That's a form of security. Since your friend only needed money to buy porn and meth, he doesn't need to commit his funds or his transactions to the bitcoin mainnet. He can use a settlement layer, preferably a more centralized larger hub, because he is prone to leaving his bank account and routing numbers lying around. Others may not wish for such centralization, and so choose to pay lower fees through the more decentralized p2p hubs. That's the point, we're at the very foundation layer of an entire banking infrastructure and economy.

>Wat is identity theft?

An illegal act with legal recourse. Again - you do not have this in bitcoin. This is what you're failing to understand.

>Debatable, but sure. How liquid of an asset is your house?

What is a HELOC.

>shares

What is the SIPC.

>SSD's

I work in IT. I can tell you first hand that 95% of people do not have nor have a goddamn clue what an SSD is. And they can and do fail as well.

I don't object to the concept of Bitcoin or any crypto - because I understand it. Most people don't and never will. I'm a realist. The only moron here is the one who thinks the fucking dinosaur that is Bitcoin is going to upend the financial system.

Spoiler alert: it's not.

How about you measure it in Satoshis?

Most exchanges have a Withdrawal fee of 0.001 BTC, that's about 17 USD now that the price is 17k

>I mine at F2Pool and all that's happened is that I get paid out every 4 days instead of every day
And this is going to increase every day

>The mainnet blockchain is never going to be a viable payment layer.
It is a viable payment layer for every other crypto, and it would be for BTC if they scale like the others, i.e increased block size.

LN for scaling will only work until that 1MB limit is hit again.

Ok /g/ how likely it for a brand new hard drive to fail within the year and how hard is it to prevent a hard drive failure from wiping out vital data. Is there perhaps a way to create redundant backups of such data so as to prevent the catastrophic failure?

>Is there perhaps a way to create redundant backups of such data so as to prevent the catastrophic failure?

What is RAID.

Lol half these people are thinking like poorfags.
Lol no one is going to be sending small amounts of btc anywhere. Its going to be only for very very large purchases in the millions of $
If theres a $

Poorfag thinking
No hope

The hell they will. It's too volatile.

Holy shit STOP REDDIT SPACING.
>greentext
New text.

The above is how you are to format on Veeky Forums; just because there aren't rules doesn't mean there aren't standards.

>legality is what is missing in bitcoin
There's nothing preventing the blockchain from also underlying a legal system of property right and smart contracts are exactly that - contracts. Sooner or later you'll see blockchain legal infrastructure. That being said, you have legal recourse to sue someone who steals your bitcoins as long as they're within the jurisdiction of the court you sue them in. In the USA, stealing someone's bitcoin is like stealing their gold or prize horse.

>HELOC & SIPC
So now you're introducing transaction costs and third-party settlement layers backed by fiat gov't sovereignty. Thanks for playing.

>I don't object to crypto
Yeah, you kind of do. You're only willing to trust entities willing to beat you with a stick if you don't trust them, and so you're just a fucking slave nigger. You may work in IT but you're either a dinosaur or part of the soyim. People like you won't survive, and it has nothing to do with Bitcoin.

Bitcoin gets more difficult to mine every day as well; once I get more miners I'll be back to receiving payments daily. Fees are what are meant to pay the miners as bitcoin matures and I'll probably switch from F2Pool to SlushPool because F2Pool doesn't pay anything but block rewards.

>increase the block size hurr durr
That isn't a viable long-term solution. Altcoins can do whatever they want because if they fail it's just another shitcoin. If BTC fucks up, it could compromise the entire sector. No one is opposed to block size increases and before bitcoin cash violated the existing 8 year consensus, BTC was scheduled for a modest 2x block size increase along with segwit. Some form of lightning network is absolutely essential regardless of the block size because it is impossible to commit micropayments to the mainnet blockchain economically

Thanks, now that we've established that hard drive failures don't mean you lose your Bitcoins, carry on.

>lost to a failed hard drive
This isn't a valid argument in crypto vs fiat because your bank account balance can also be lost due to hard drive failure.

use snapshots in case you fuck up
use RAID in case your hardware fucks up

I just sent 1 bitcoin (17.000 dollars) over the most secure payment system in the world and it costed me 30 dollars or a 0.0017% fee.

If you think that's a lot you are retarded.

I'll format however I goddamn well please.

>lawsuits

yeah well good luck suing the nork that steals your btc.

>backed by government

Yep. you do realize that law and government is pretty much a requirement in any civilized society, right?

Jesus Christ the mental gymnastics with you are astounding. First you say you can sue people for losses, then you whine about government involvement. Well under what venue are you going to sue the thief you fucking jackass? Your dentists office?

>object

Ok clearly you're some kind of dipshit anarchist. I don't know why I'm even responding at this point...

>Thanks, now that we've established that hard drive failures don't mean you lose your Bitcoins, carry on.

Riiiight... because a power surge can't blow your whole raid array anyways. Do you have the dumb?

>Reddit spacing

Oh that's cute you think you're an oldfag

>bank account balance can also be lost due to hard drive failure.

Are there really this many tards who don't know that the FDIC exists??

>You can't steal money from my bank account.
the government can if they decide they think you might be a criminal through civil forfeiture or they think you owe them money. other people can through the broken justice system. the banks/government can through bail-ins. the system constantly steals from you via inflation. please leave

>the government can if they decide they think you might be a criminal through civil forfeiture or they think you owe them money.

YOU. STILL. HAVE. LEGAL. RECOURSE. YOU. IGNORANT. FUCKS.

>$31 coffee

Not when its capped and all mined out.

The great thing about Lightning? It requires on chain transactions to get started LMAO

do you think the transaction fee will go down when more people are using the lightning network and therefore reducing congestion on the leger, therefore reducing cost of transaction?

>all mined out.

You mean a hundred fucking years from now? Yeah... I'm sure we'll still be using bitcoin then.

Good fucking Lord the stupidity on this board....

Its a store of value because once you put your money in, its stored for good.

youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=jTYkdEU_B4o

kek

presented with no comment...

ho can any sane person justify his kind of shit?

> core cucks

nope. at current rate 6 billion on chain transactions would cost a minimum of $180 billion lmao.

LN requires a centralized network to function, that central provider with liquidity channels will charge fees and destroy the decentralized nature of the network.

Bitcoins only hope is the latest research development "channel factories".

But bitcoin is way behind development schedule and alts are going to rekt it before it can release it.

Wrong, but you're welcome to short BTC if you feel that way.

>Fees are what are meant to pay the miners as bitcoin matures
Yes, but what worries most are what happens when the only fees left to collect, once the blocks are mined, are the LN channels open/close.

This would drop incitement to mine TXs drastically, which in itself isn't a problem, one can keep mining TXs only for the purpose of keeping the network running.

The problem is the security when the hashrate decreases as people stop mining BTC. Eventually the difficulty will drop to the point where those "turned off" ASIC could return and get majority in hashrate, destroying the whole network.

top kek

great retort. You just proved you have no fucking idea how LN works. don't cry to me when you lose all your money on a worthless shitcoin

>the LN lowering fees hurts miners
Miners are already not able to cope with demand, especially for the low-value transactions like purchases of coffee. Essentially, miners and LN nodes aren't competing so much as segregating the market - those who need security and are willing to pay the fee as well as LN nodes settling balances will use the mainnet blockchain, whereas those who need speed and low transaction fees will sacrifice some security and decentralization for the convenience of the LN.

>drop incentive to mine
Every LN channel requires two txns to be settled, one to open and one to close. Just like with segwit, adoption is likely to be relatively slow and as a result transaction fees on the mainnet will only slowly decrease, if at all, while the LN absorbs the transactions that otherwise would have just fallen out of the mempool.

>people will stop mining
That's entirely determined by whether the BTC price and difficulty justify the electrical cost of mining. Even now nobody knows that crypto is here to stay. The lightning network needs the mainnet blockchain to survive in order to exist, and as expressed above, they aren't really in competition as much as you would think.

>LN require a centralized network
Source? Why? Any coffee shop and any individual can open a channel for the individual to periodically buy coffee from the shop.

>central provider will charge fees
LN nodes will charge fees, the network will route your payment for whatever fee you are willing to pay. If there is a centralized node limiting the network because of fees, you're free to set up a node to compete with them in the free market.

>channel factories
Are enabled by schnorr signatures, which in turn are enabled by segwit. You can bet on altcoins all you want but bitcoin has and still is the major focus of the crypto developer community. Everything ultimately relates to being adopted on the bitcoin mainnet.

>Miners are already not able to cope with demand, especially for the low-value transactions like purchases of coffee.
Because they are limited to 1 MB blocksize every 10 minutes

>Every LN channel requires two txns to be settled, one to open and one to close.
Yes, but my point is that the amount of TXs on the mainnet are going to be drastically reduced which drastically reduce incitement to mine TXs, especially when most of the blocks are mined.

This in turn lowers hashrate as people turn off or mine on other chains with their ASICs, such as BCH.

Lower hashrate means lower security.

If months pass with little or no ASICs on the BTC chain, the difficulty will be so decreased that a hostile takeover is possible with ASICs.

The incitement for this exist, because BCH exists.

> It's the world's most secure system of payment and any transaction over $1000 between two parties has less than 1% fees. It is still an incredible store of value

blockstream jews really are the sheldon faggots of crypto

No; even if you believe the Bitcoin market is currently capped even though segwit, which all parties agree would increase transaction throughput 2-fold, is only at 10% adoption, that situation has only existed for the last month or so. Even at 1 MB blocksize, the network should be able to sustain max 7 txn/sec, whereas fork.lol shows the network maxing out at 5 txn/sec.

>the amount of txns on mainnet will drastically reduce
If that were the case, segwit should have been adopted much faster than it has to save on txn fees. That hasn't been the case.

Again, you're not addressing the point that the LN and mainnet do not compete directly. There is absolutely no reason to use the LN if you are moving $10k overseas, you would use the mainnet and pay regular fees. The mainnet, being more secure than the LN, is always preferable for the same cost, and so whatever the fee on the LN is, the mainnet will be more, which is the point.

>people will mine other chains
That depends on profitability. You're assuming that high fees on the blockchain are a hindrance, let's suppose that's true. That means because people cannot use Bitcoin as much as they want because of high fees, so when the LN debuts on mainnet, demand for Bitcoin will skyrocket because so many transactions in Bitcoin become feasible once again.

>BCH
bcash is pegged to BTC difficulty; there's a reason why the DAA was implemented and you'll see that the DAA keeps BCH mining difficulty roughly at parity with the profitability of bitcoin mining.

The only two chains profitable to mine with ASICs are BCH and BTC; and there has never been a period of more than 6 hours since BCH debuted that it wasn't more profitable to mine BTC. People demand the security of the Bitcoin protocol, and the ASICs that provide that are able to earn more because fees are higher on the BTC mainnet. What the fuck is bcash going to do in 8 years when the block reward is ~3.25 bcash per block and fees are still 0?

I'm a pajeet thanks.