New 40k Charge Phase

Then they better fix marker lights because that would be fucking obnoxious getting overwatched multiple times on something besides bs1

Also not a fan of the 2d6 charge, wouls make sense for movement +d6

>non melee armies complaining that overwatch is the only thing keeping them alive
>in warhammer 40k nigga how the fuck is close combat even real just walk away nigga eddition

EVERYTHING AS BEEN GOOD AND THIS IS PURE SHIT

Firstly, it's a weird exception to the I-go-U-go system and as such very counterintuitive

Secondly, it can't be denied, just diverted, and assured damage is generally shitty design. If you fuck up positioning you might not be able to charge/shoot. Overwatch WILL happen if you charge, no way to avoid it.

Thirdly, implementation is inelegant with the flat BS of 1, as it's weird a Marine and a grot have the same chance of hitting a charging gaunt.

Fourthly, investing enoung resources to remove one squad a round will make that unit a deathstar, and deathstars can be countered by clever positioning (see above). And if you don't get that oneturnkill, in 8th you can just disengage on your turn and shoot them to shit with the rest of your army.

Fifthly, it's kinda jarring to have units fire twice just because they're getting charged. why don't they always do that?

>Shooty armies need SOMETHING to stop the assault phase being 'remove one squad, cause zero casialties' every time
Bubble wrap, deploy smarter, countercharge. gunlines are boring to play against, overwatch just aids them.

I dislike having to declare the target of your charge in advance
Not having to do so in AOS is nice, and there isn't even any over watch there

i also was kind of hoping they'dd make charges more reliable
well with the way it's written you hit overwatch on a flat 6, doesn't have the "reduced to bs1" wording that the old overwatch had
and we don't even know how markerlights will work in the new edition

Yes, but the problem is still marketlights. Why fuck the guard over because the tau are broken?

What the fuck kind of melee unit can't put ten wounds on a t3 squad of fucking guardsmen without being a deathstar?

Not everything is a space marine.

>one is before shooting, the other is after
So? It's messy. Keep movement in the fucking movement phase, that's why it's the movement phase. What depth is added to the game by having charges after shooting? How does it further the need for strategy to justify the added encumbrance?

Holy fuck this on so many goddamn levels

>I need overwatch because otherwise i might lose one (1) squad of ten (10) guardsmen
Are you literally retarded?

>mechguard

>veteran squads are totally going to be fine in melee you guise!

Tell me about your space marines, friend :)

>What the fuck kind of melee unit can't put ten wounds on a t3 squad of fucking guardsmen without being a deathstar?
If a melee unit wipes out ten guardsmen in one round of combat it also costs 3 to 4 times as much as the guardsmen, so you just shoot them to shit next round.
Are you literally complaining that your 60 point unit doesn't get free damage on that 200 point unit that had to move out of position (so no sitting on objectives) to even get the CHANCE to deal damage to you which is still 100% reliant on not fucking up a single 2d6 roll?

So the new charge phase is a buff for shooting armies. Gosh what a shock GW.

>Charging isn't done in the movement phase
>No 'durr double ur movement an hope u got in close lol'
>mfw

Thank fucking god.

That lame shit was cancerous enough back in Mordehiem, Necromundia, ruined any hope of Shadow war being good for combat armies, and i'm so glad it stayed the fuck away from the mainline game.

I'll take failing a 3 inch charge just because i rolled a double 1 anyday. and it sounds like you can't even fail that now with the +1 inch

No, I am complaining that my 170 point unit gets deleted with literally zero way of doing anything whatsoever in retaliation.

Quite how you think 'hits on a six' is free garanteed damage when most of the squad is using fucking lasguns is another matter.

While dossappinted, im not surprised the fucked up in regards to overwatch, since AOS was a field for them to test the new rules, and AOS does not have overwatch

They already said they were going to community play testing, and since the rulebook is free, i can see them changing this once everyone complai s about it

Markerlights shouldn't be a problem, OW shooting is hitting on a flat 6, not a reduction to BS 1. That is to say there is no way to improve that number.

Why do you dislike double movement (or movement+d6, or hell, 2d6 but in the movement phase)? You still have to hope you got in close.

>No, I am complaining that my 170 point unit gets deleted with literally zero way of doing anything whatsoever in retaliation.
Oh my, almost as if they had been shot at!
Also, what the fuck kind of units are you running that cost 170 points and die to average melee units (stormboyz, assault marines, etc) in one turn?

>multi overwatch
>2d6 charge range remains
>even though they added a fucking movement statistic
>everything in the game has an uncontestable fallback during its movement phase
>but +1"
>cover ignoring in melee matters less and shooty enemies with pistols can still fire them in cc

New GW came out of 7th with the stern conviction that assault was not unplayable enough yet

>What depth is added to the game by having charges after shooting?
the possibility of breaking a shielding chaff unit to charge the important target behind, for one.

Not the other user

But dude this is stupid, because once they are done killing the unit the rest of your army can light them

It takes zero effort and risk to sit still and set up gun lines, but your opponent actually has to plan around the battlwfield to assault you, and if they do you just get free bullshit damage

Also find it amazing you expect guard to survive when they are flimsy as paper and in the lore last for like 2 seconds on the battlefield

Carapace armoured veterans with plasmaguns are not massively cheap units. And assault marines charging them will get what, four attacks each?

Not everything is a marine. Things that are not marines should not exist purely to be deleted by marines with absolutely zero chance to ever do a damn thing.

mind you, the whole 'charging out of transports, means that it's a lot easier to make that overwatch the only shooting the Unit takes.

>you can never hit on a better than a 3+
>half the assault units in the game are missing critical USRs like grenades, fleet, better than 6" moves
>previously "assault" units still had shit like I2 on the statline
>overwatch

>Firstly, it's a weird exception to the I-go-U-go system and as such very counterintuitive
you don't get to punch me in the combat fase on my turn and we'll talk about me not hitting you on 6's in the charge fase
>Secondly, it can't be denied, just diverted
pinning
>Thirdly, implementation is inelegant with the flat BS of 1, as it's weird a Marine and a grot have the same chance of hitting a charging gaunt.
there are rules that increase overwatch chance. luckily those are rare because overwatch is a consolation prize for the fact that if the charge succeeds, you aren't going to be shooting the next turn
>Fourthly, investing enoung resources to remove one squad a round will make that unit a deathstar, and deathstars can be countered by clever positioning (see above). And if you don't get that oneturnkill, in 8th you can just disengage on your turn and shoot them to shit with the rest of your army.
that's just blatantly false, i've lost full squads to a single surviving bloodletter because i lost combat, failed leadership and got swooping advanced
>Fifthly, it's kinda jarring to have units fire twice just because they're getting charged. why don't they always do that?
it's a game, it doesn't make sense at all
my guardsmen fire twice if we use 18th century volley fire with semi automatic lasrifles but if left to fire at will they somehow only fire once

We still dont know if you can sweep units falling back or rengange them with a consolidation type move, that is likely to come out tomorrow in the fight subphase

>Why do you dislike double movement

As i said, too many years of playing GW side games with that shit system, so the enemy just has to walk away from you to never get charged, even back when pre-measuring wasn't common

I'll take the random 2d6 'gotcha bitch' over that. And they even made it better than AoS. which asks you be half an inch in to secure the charge.

explains >oh no my army of mass pie plates doesn't do well when I take cheap special weapon squads designed to shoot something and die that get tied up in CC

>durr double ur movement an hope u got in close lol
There's no hoping about that, unless you're one of those retards who can't gauge distances without a measuring aid. There's no variable, it's always the same distance.

Hopefully you can charge out of rhinos this time

Wait did they say you can now charge out of any transport?

If so im aboit to buy an asston of rhinos

I think they did, a while back.

Maybe I can use my repentia for once.

This
Guard players are the worst kind of players

Atleast nid players understand that 80%of their grunts are gonna get taken out, guard players just bitch when their normal humans in a galaxy filled with abnormal and exceptional aliens get torn to shreds

Was playing a guard player who had over 120 infantry models and sperged out because i wiped out a 10 man squad with 4 assault cannons

>the possibility of breaking a shielding chaff unit to charge the important target behind, for one.
That could be solved by having consolidation into melee, which is a much rarer movement so does not encumber as much, and benefits the melee unit as it can remove chaff by way of its preference rather than relying on shooty support or being able shoot themselves. granted it's movement outside the move phase again, but it's a little more thematic and less common.

>CarapaceVets with Plasmaguns
120 points
10 Assault Marines swing with three attacks each, hitting on 3+ so 2 hit
wounding on 3+s so 4/3 per marine hit.
Vets save o 4+ so 2/3 per marine hit.
10 Marines -> 20/3 so roughly 7 Vets die.
7 is not 10, and 120 is not 170, stop inflating the numbers.

Yep. That's why I understand keeping overwatch. As getting to melee without otherwise getting shot got a chunk easier.

The movement phase post was very clear that during your phase you get to disengage. I don't know why there are people talking about sweeping when they've clearly stated it just disallows the disengaging unit from acting further.

How would you even sweep without initiative?

SOMEONE CONFIRM
gonna cum my pants if this is true

Well movement fisengagw only happens during your next movement phase, so there is a big chance that assault units have a chance to rengage with you

They also never mentioned reconsolidation, which im sure is still a thing

>carapace armored plasma vets should be able to survive in combat after being charged by dedicated assault squads, all of which by definition have little to no access to plasma at all
>assault marines have what, 6 attacks each?
god DAMN

My bad, the 170 includes their tank.

7 dead vets and i3 means you are going to lose the squad to a sweeping advance almost every time.

>you don't get to punch me in the combat fase on my turn and we'll talk about me not hitting you on 6's in the charge fase
I agree, the current system is dumb too, and if the rumors are true the mini-I-go-U-go will be a lot more fitting. One broken thing however does not justify another, you nigger.

>pinning
you mean the thing we don't even know is still in the game because morale has been reworked and even then is mostly found in the shooty armies and not the coppy ones? great solution m8

>there are rules that increase overwatch chance. luckily those are rare because overwatch is a consolation prize for the fact that if the charge succeeds, you aren't going to be shooting the next turn
>waah I miss a round of shooting
>meanwhile melee armies get like 2 or 3 rounds of melee per game
amazing logic user

>that's just blatantly false, i've lost full squads to a single surviving bloodletter because i lost combat, failed leadership and got swooping advanced
swooping advance is gone next edition, so a moot point

>it's a game, it doesn't make sense at all
not even the attempt at an argument

what kind of learning disability do you have? genuinely curious.

You do realize they can just be further than 12 inches, the maximum possible roll on a 2d6, away from you correct?

The only "gotcha" happening with a 2d6 charge range is when you roll a 4 and your unit looks at their dicks for a turn before getting obliterated

Except now initiative is not a thing, so your entire point is moot

First, grab a tissue, jizz stains are bad.
Second, yes. That's news from a month or two ago.

Did you even read my post? Would you be opposed to a 2d6 or move+d6 system in the move phase? If yes, why?

sweeping advance is gone and losing a dedicated ranged unit to a melee unit of equal points without chance at retaliation is no less dumb than losing a dedicated melee unit to a ranged unit. i really can not see how one could be this mentally challenged as to not understand this simple symmetry.

why are guard players such retards?

>You get assaulted
>You move your tarpit troops out of the assault with no checks, no hassle, ostensibly the other guy gets no reaction?
>Your army can now shoot the guys that otherwise would not have been able to have been shot at, and almost certainly will because they are the immediate threat
>Your boys die before you can even move them again

My favorite part of people explaining why these rule changes aren't awful is when they tell me they are certain of other rule changes to come

>tfw assault marines will no longer need jump packs and can just be stuffed into rhinos, effecticly allowing them to move 18 inches and then charge 2d6 in one turn

No shit, but that's why you move up first. that's why movement then charging is always better.

If the enemy is like 18 inches away then fuck it charging isn't an option unless you pray for a full 6 inch move closer AND a double 6 roll, so it's a non-argument

>consolidation into melee
that situation implies you can't ever achieve surgical first strikes with any unit

>lol your stupid for makeing assumptions

You know this entire thread is basically about assumptions of upcoming rules right?

>mfw i read your bullshit story

Finally a more realistic Donald Duck Benis.

What? Carry on.

u wot m8

Fuck that is so little information. Couldn't they have at least included how pile in works now that there is no initiative?

>charge in charge phase after shooting:
>remove unit x shielding unit y during shooting phase to charge the latter with specialist unit z

>charging during movements but consolidation:
>specialist unit z has to first win against shielding unit x to get to y in the next turn

Positioning and using cover is how you stop yourself from dying. Pretty obvious modern war convention, but I suppose it had to be made obvious for some people.

so what's your problem with that? If you're charging with z it's probably already a killer-unit in melee

I believe now you "fail forward" if you don't make the charge? Like if you need a 6 and you roll a 5, in previous editions you would stay where you are. Now you move the 5.

>One broken thing however does not justify another, you nigger.
it's not broken
>you mean the thing we don't even know is still in the game
i was talking about 7th
i don't see why something like pinning wouldn't be in 8th though
>meanwhile melee armies get like 2 or 3 rounds of melee per game
which evens out because you also strike in your opponents turn
>swooping advance is gone next edition, so a moot point
we haven't gotten info on the combat fase yet. My example was from 7th , So were your complaints I assumed, since you most likely haven't even played 8th yet
>not even the attempt at an argument
the argument is that this whole game is based on arbitrary rules that make no sense in the larger scale of things. so attempting to say "this rule makes no sense because of other rules" is irrelevant.

>i don't see why something like pinning wouldn't be in 8th though
because morale is now battleshock?
are you that dense?

That's why I went Renegade. Into the grinder! Capture it for Chaos! Hope we're included in "Forge World Support"!

ah yes because now leadership is gone there is absolutely no way to implement anything of the sort ever again ?
everyone at gw is a braindead moron and they couldn't possibly come up with a way to replace pinning tests now that they can't use 2d6 for leadership.

killer units more often then not can be divided into 2 types: hit hard or hit a lot, the first is good against large targets the second against swarms, very rarely they are both and some times they can get countered if they don't get an alpha strike on their ideal target.

on top of inevitably leaving unit y survive another turn in a way like this, you also leave the defending player in an easy position to decide what unit to send against what.

you're reducing the ability to counter enemy plans for no reason at all except to move all units in the same phase pretending it significantly speeds up gameplay enough to justify the simplification.

You know, I've been around for a while and know that fundamentally Veeky Forums is bad at most of the games that it talks about. But never could I have imagined that I would see people try and use the existence of pinning as a justification for overwatch in 40k

Even the most basic unit with 7 leadership and no benefits whatsoever passes a pinning test most of the time. You're talking about needing multiple units with pinning weapons to routinely, successfully deny the overwatch of one of the most throwaway units in the entire game

>pretending it significantly speeds up gameplay enough to justify the simplification
Nigga I'm not pretending. Moving is no joke the part of 40k that takes the longest. Consolidating movement into one action could easily shave off like 25% of your total time per game, there's a reason they did it for shooting.

>Moving is no joke the part of 40k that takes the longest.
moving the entite army is one thing, charging is another, way rarer matter entirely.

not for orks or melee nids

Looks slightly better, hope you cannot make OW any better like you could with Tau shit. Plus the 1 inch thing is cool.

This along with the new cover rules that give marines and their equivalents a 2+ save against shooting really bother me and makes me wonder if GW learned anything from 7th :\

Nigga I play nid, I know how much time it takes to perform charge movements; the fact you have an enemy unit to move towards speeds it up considerably.

it's running that can easily get boring or unnerving and they got rid of that

I thought that was part of the reason they added the new falling back move, so that assaults weren't something that you could get caught in and were more like a close range shooting attack.

If a marine squad runs up to your Tau and shoots them in the open, you don't need Over watch, you just back up the survivors and have other squads shoot them back.

If a marine squad assaults the Tau, it would be the same thing now.

But for some reason they need another 6+ to make up for the fact they can't be locked in anymore?

The real answer there would be to remove supporting fire. That's what busts the new system, since u,its that don't get charged could Over watch for mutiple allied squads in one turn.

It also cuts out markerlight boosting on the charge

Don't forget currently those 3 guard then have to moral check then fail because their Sargeant bit the dust in a challenge. So now they run and lol the space Marines catch them. Some of the most infuriating shit that has happened to me has been because of that.

>19 guardsmen charge 1 lone space Marines
>Magically they all fail to hit the little fucker
>The marine swings and kills one dude.
>I fail moral and run
>The marine rolls to catch me and kills off all remaining 18 guardsmen.
>MFW

>Oh yes, I get 1 free inch charge range!
>Units can now fire multiple overwatch per turn
FUCK

>2D6 charge still in

Another edition of tyranid and ork melee armies being shit then

Don't forget that you can universally Run/Advance before charging now. With the 1" that's a minimum 4" range, if you want to get technical. Puts you at an average of 11 as well.

It sounds like they can only multifire if the charge fails

Well just remember to give your assault forces pistols and hope that assault troops become more durable.

You know you get to run and charge now, right?

>lets introduce movement values!
>but they dont matter when you run or charge

great job gw

d6 charge range remains
>>even though they added a fucking movement statistic

2D6 is purely a consequence of allowing premeasuring not the movement statistic. Otherwise positioning starts to get really deterministic and can lead to analysis paralysis. Warmachine can have that problem but gets around it with tons of movement and position modifying spells. 40k has no real equivalent.

Advancing I can understand but not the charge.

Was hoping M+d6

Especially with sweeping advance gone. Now the tarpit is real.

Anyone know if the defensive fire has a range, or if its any unit within range of the enemy charging? Because that will really fuck shit up if marines or tau can just sit still and gun line the individual charging squads.

Also for anyone contemplating the IG scenario, if you add a commissar you still have the 3 model end round size, because if you fail inevitably you kill a unit and proceed right? And commisars come with a power weapon, as do sergeants. So keep command in the back and let the heavy weapon soak wounds?

Here's a great tidbit from the post they did on the movement phase

"If you’re in combat at the start of your turn, you can Fall Back by moving away from the enemy. You’ll lose the ability to advance, shoot or charge that turn, and crucially, enemies will be able to shoot at you!"

The official community post posits one of the downsides of falling back is the enemy can shoot at your guys, despite it being your turn, after you deliberately had them leave combat which was otherwise /the/ way to prevent being shot at. This game is so linearly designed around shooting the downside of moving your guys so that you can shoot at the enemy................. is that you can also be shot at.

lol this is going to be the worst meta imaginable

>everyone at gw is a braindead moron
now you understand

>if
>implying it won't regularly fail for me

Most melee forces utilize pistols. The only real loser there is Nids and GW could make things like fleshborers pistols if they wanted. And it's really only tac marines/CSM and battle sisters that typically pack the backup pistols. Are you afraid of Tac marines?

I'm running on the traditional definition of if, not the XCOM/realistic definition

those are incredibly bad rolls that happen very infrequently

The downside is that they don't otherwise get to act and will have no offensive output that turn.

what's the fallback distance? same as the movement stat?

>movement+d6
This is a really good idea actually. I might house-rule this.

Pistols can now be used in melee, Penitent Engines will be MCs, and if you charge first you go first, so Sisters melee capabilities just increased by like 500%.