Infinity General: Martial Arts L2 Edition

In reference to the manga, I have heard complaints that Beba, Domvoi and Nakadai were really flat characters.

I disagree. They obviously weren't the main characters and they served their role in the story perfectly well before they died.

That purpose being to drive home the point that the people Emily is used to working with a violent psychopaths.

Why do people keep thinking Kazaks are going to get another sectorial?

They already have one, it's called Vanilla Ariadna.

but link teams

I think Beba, Domovoi, and Nakadai struck many if not most of us as disposable characters especially in the total deniability and black ops setting of Infinity Skirmishes.

I wish bolts looked terrible so people didn't feel like they need to defend them after they spent $35 on the current trap of an NCA starter.

I love the bolt profile. Piss off mate.

I just really like the way they look and their fluff.

Thank god profiles don't care what you think about them.

Good, now if only more people admitted that rather than arguing a moot point.

Yeah, but my multiple tournament wins do depend on them. From which I take a core link in at least 1 of my lists every time.

"My D10 rolled higher than a D12 multiple times, thus, a D10 must roll higher than a D12"

oh no, it's retarded

Oh no, it doesn't understand confirmation bias

What's it like to hate fun, user?

Explain to me mathematically how they are shit then?

They are hard to dislodge from the centre of the board. Which is what I use them for. You're the kind of person who looks at a fusilier and a swiss guard and thinks 8 fusiliers is better than a swiss.

So here's a scenario, bolt/fusi link vs a supressive pheasent with red fury. With combis, bolts have a 3% higher to wound the pheasant and a 2% lower chance to take a wound. Within 8" and a bolt using a LSG that jumps to a 13% higher favoring bolts.

That's taking into account their higher BS and even using their very high BTS vs shock ammo. The numbers just don't add up.

Oh we're doing this again? Here is an okay review ive composited from two posts.

Bolts are not bad, but they are unfocused and lack the synergy that, for example, Bagh Maris have. Baghs play right into PanO strength of winning by shooting: MSV1, mimetism. Bolts have better BS, BTS, and abilities that are situationally very useful but also costly.

Versus the abundance of Shock weapons, Bolts tell it all to fuck right off and gimp Haqq/Tohaa Viral stuff. So being tanky fuckers is a plus. Which is good because their weaponry heavily skews towards closer ranges where they want to grab territory midfield and bunker down, this is where you have fun stuff like mines hanging around or jackasses with red furies to deal with. Use drop bears to bully infiltrators/minelayers, shotgun warbands and skirmishers, call people cunts.

Next thing that goes into this midfield play is veteran, so if your LT bites the dust you still have Bolts generating orders and can pull some clutch objective plays or whatever. Also makes them completely immune to E/M, which is nice. Bolts can wade through non-mono mines without giving a single fuck. I think a significant part part of their usefulness against Haqq is the ability to ignore all the fancy horseshit Ghazi can do. Also lets you go ham with an aggressive Lt as part of your overall plan.

So this sounds pretty cool but they are only situationally useful at best. Bioimmunity is useful versus 2 out of ~18 types of ammunition that can come their way. Best way not to die from crazy bullets or bukkake guns is to not get shot in the first place. Vet runs into this same exact problem, relying on things going wrong for you for it to be useful.

So tldr, Bolts are good where their BTS comes into play, holding middle board objectives, scenarios like biotechvore, and saving your ass from total LoL.

It's amazing how quickly "not bad, but unfocused" is converted to "absolute shit that you have to be retarded to use" in these threads.

That's pretty much any balance discussion on the internet.

Ariadna has a lot of shock ammo too.

That's why a lot of tournaments have two list options, and I usually only bring them in one of them. Because against Haqq, Tohaa and Ariadna, I will bring them 80% of the time.

>So being tanky fuckers is a plus
So I'm not being a hypocrite here, I ran math on bolt spitfire vs fusi HMG vs a lasiq viral sniper to see what the 6BTS really does:
Bolt: kills lasiq 49%, dies 10.4%
Fusi: kills lasiq 56.4%, dies 28%
So indeed, they are much tankier vs viral, but those numbers are a lot closer than most people would think.

>Bolts can wade through non-mono mines without giving a single fuck
Again, math here: move+dodge a mine, fusi vs bolt:
Fusi dies 39% of the time
Bolt dies 21% of the time
Without dodging it's 60% vs 35%
It's nearly double the chance for survival, but I'd hardly call a 79% "not giving a single fuck"

That's literally best case, against the rare ammo they beat.
And it's still not as good as Bagh Mari just having MSV1/mimetism and not getting shot in the first place.

>grab territory midfield and bunker down,

This is what I do with them every single goddamn time. It never fails to be a pain in the dick for my opponent, ever.

No, shit they're not as good as Bagh Mari. Who said they were? But last time I checked I can't get Bagh Mari in NCA. And last time I checked you can't bring a Swiss Guard or Auxillia in ACA.

Well, it's the same reason that Brigada aren't good in JCC because Riot Grrls exist.

Just for shits and giggles, the Bagh mari HMG vs lasiq viral sniper is:
Bagh mari kills lasiq 67.7%, dies 8.6%

But again, that is basically best case for a Bagh mari as well.

Well if you mean just in NCA, a Locust (marksman so rangebands can overlap) vs a Lasiq is 45% dead lasiq, 10% dead locust.
Mods >>> BTS+Bioimmunity in this game

It's worse than that though. They're worst against viral/shock weapons than ANYONE with BS12 and Mimetism.

That's pretty shit given how specialized the threat is they're 'protected' against.

It means that compared to other units you may face, their speciality is being slow, marginally better fusiliers that cost twice as much

Thanks for the math, that should definitely be a part of the composite post when Bolts come up.

Im glad Im not talking out of my ass when I thought these were decent posts.

Id rather take a MB in vanilla than a Riot desu. The only thing MB needs is a Haris option IMO. If I have points left over I evolve it to a Taskmaster.

Locusts are more expensive again, and yeah, they are heaps better than a singular bolt, but I've never used singular bolts, only core. Would 3 locusts be better than a bolt link? Not really, they don't have the ability to lock down the centrefield. I think they're great at killing shit on the sidelines.

I'm considering just writing an article I can copy-paste on math for Bolts and ORCs.

Obviously I don't intend to compare 1 bolt to 1 Locust. But compare say an entire fusilier link + locust being about the same points than a bolt link and you get the idea.

So aside from ORCs and Bolts, what are the other unplayably bad units in PanO? What about in other factions?

in pano:
>Bipandra
>Singh
>Teutons

Konstantinos and Hexas also seem really fucking expensive to me, but I'm not sure Id call them unplayable.

is it possible yet to field an army of adorable cute catboys?

Off the top of my head Zheyadin and Khawrij are pretty terrible. Generally a unit being renowned as terrible goes hand and hand with it being in a popular starter pack (bolts/orcs) or it having a beautiful model (nisse hacker).

Because I should be rewarded for taking all the best things in vanilla and not taking other scumraces' scumunits

Id be interested in that, but whats up with the ORC math? They're just generic HI.

Nomad Securitate, so bad they no longer have models being produced. The HMG profile is almost pretty decent.

A TL;DR on the orc argument is:
They aren't the best shooting options for their points in vanilla. In a haris they cost a huge amount of points compared to other HI and don't bring anything else to the table, and they also don't have cheap specialists.

They're just too under-specialized while being just barely better than other "cheap HI", but being 5-10% better doesn't justify like a 30% increase in points.

orcs are generic hi in a faction that needs hi to be very good at doing certain things. other factions would love them, but pano doesnt need what they offer. theyre too expensive as a link because they dont get the frenzy discount hospitallers and magisters get that makes mo worth playing, and even in nca they have to compete with lots of very good light and heavy troops like auxilia, bulleteers, and the guards.

Ah that seems pretty fair of an argument. MB are roughly ORCs and choosing between them, Riots, and Taskmasters and Geckos is like a sliding scale of things you want to do with clear point differences.

Think a setup like Haqq where ORCs taking a cheapo LI filler for links help them out?

Any link with LI filler I feel like is pretty insane and immediately skyrockets the efficiency of said link. God an orc HMG+2 fusis is 64 points, vs 115 for 3 ORCs.

That depends on how good your manners are and how big your pocketbook is.

>Starters are supposed to be a good introduction to the game
>usariadna starter doesn't even hit 100 points
CB clearly doesn't care for Americans

Does anyone have a better picture/scan of this panel/page. That knight is quite the BAMF

For ORC+fusi, I was thinking more 2:1 and 3:2, so that Haris is BSG+HMG+fusi for 90 points and 2.5SWC. For comparison; a Hospitaller HMG with a pair of Magisters is 85 points 2 SWC. Not perfect since MO doesnt have Haris, but still a decent way to bring ORCs up to par...maybe?

MAKE WAY FOR BEST KNIGHT

hey anyone got that tactical guide that was posted a while back here? The one that teaches you movement and everything?

too good, if anything

links are very powerful defensively. the traditional weakness of linking elite troops is having to take a bunch of expensive filler dudes you dont want. giving nca (or varuna or whatever) a hi pointman for their fusilier link completely changes what the fireteam is capable of. a hmg orc with link bonuses can muscle through most anything in the game, can survive an errant crit thanks to his second wound, and in a fireteam is also moving up specialists while being rambo.

the hospitaller/magister link is already among the best in the game

Funnily enough, nobody in ISS seems to be running the Crane in their Celestial Guard links.

What do you think is the story there? Surely not every ISS player is just an idiotic dolt who hasn't worked it out?

BOLT Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun, Drop Bears / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
BOLT Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun, Drop Bears / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
BOLT Boarding Shotgun, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19)
BOLT Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 24)
BOLT Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 27)

the crane is considerably more expensive, less focused, and doesnt have the hmg profile that this link would really like. doesnt help that you cant use triangulated fire in a fireteam, which is one of the neatest things about the sensor profiles. it also competes with the kuang shi link which is really good

That relies on people running Celestial Guard links. There aren't that many of those, and a number of the ones I've seen or used include a Crane. Kuang Shi order batteries and Wu Ming pain trains are more common.

Yup, doesnt get more BOLT than that.

But you still get to bully camo mercilessly

You can still use traingulated fire in a fireteam as of HSN3, but you will get none of the bonuses. No +1 burst or +3 BS, but sometimes it might be a good idea.

Max range long shots on ODD/TO are always fun times.

I like the Bolts and all, but they feel just a bit too expensive for what they bring.

I wish they had at least WIP13 and/or a Haris option.

Bipandra is worthless even more so than the Teutons IMO.

I definitely agree with the Khawarij - even linked and with a HRL and with Tarik as an options in Ramah, I don't like them.

But I think the Zhayedan is fine.

Hexa is decent. Kostantinos is good, but the Infiltration option is expensive as fuck especially compared with the Spec Sgt TOFO.

Quick question:

I'm gonna be playing a spec ops game (Armoury, 300pts vs ASS) with my MRRF and I was wondering, how do you outfit an ariadnan spec ops?

Almost done

...

...

Not an Infinity player so no idea: What is this model? Is gorgeous.

Hexas and Konnie are both good, you don't need to worry about them. The others are pretty much on point though. Bipandra is severely overpriced for her worth and costs SWC for some reason, Teutons are a subpar result of Santiago/Magister crossbreeding, and Singh is just fucking weird.

Maghariba Guard. It's a TAG for Haqqislam.

Bipranda is easy to fix; just give her the newer Dire Foes treatment: 20pts 0swc. Done.

Singh I just don't get. CoC on a drop trooper is weird and his very basic loadout is not helping matters.

Easy fixes for all of them:
- Just make Bipranda 20/0 and she'd be fine.
- Replace Chain of Command with Executive Order on Singh.
- People have offered a shitload of Teuton fixes, but I like this simple one: combi/haris profile, combi/eclipse profile, NWI.

The assault pistol on Singh is nice, as is stealth. But CoC just ends up doing nothing but bump up the price more often than not because AD troopers die a lot. There are far cheaper and more versatile ways to make a drop troop a specialist.

>Bipandra is worthless even more so than the Teutons IMO.
The main problem of Bipandra is the 0.5SWC cost. WIth their BS12 and a double HMG setup Fusiliers make a hell of an offensive link, adding a WIP13 Doctor with a shotgun in there is great. But with the SWC cost one would usually take the Hacker instead.

>Hexa is decent. Kostantinos is good, but the Infiltration option is expensive as fuck especially compared with the Spec Sgt TOFO.
Hexa is more than decent, he's great.
Konstantinos is pretty much auto-include for me. He's a swiss army knife of a unit, with Mimetism, MSV2 and Specialist Operative, I usually take an objective and manage to dislodge a problematic unit with him before he dies. He costs the same as a Croc or a Specialist Sergeant, but I often just take one of each as well, to compliment Konstantinos. And I don't even like the model that much.

What I think ORCs need is Duo on all profiles.
They make a pretty decent Duo (I ran one with TeamPro in vanilla shortly after HSN3 came out to learn those rules) and I wish I could get both the Hacker and HMG moving without BSG tax.
Giving them Duo would give them a niche even in NCA.

That's why they have a 200pts army box that also contains the starter.

>eclipse
The idea is to make Teutons an option, not to make them mandatory for all MO lists and many vanilla ones.

And Teuton haris is just weird, I don't know why everyone seems to be so obsessed with it. You either have them as your main order and therefore would be better served by core with a Magister option, or you don't and therefore you can only take 2. Teutons don't need unique links, they just need the same shit Hospitallers and Santiagos have.

NWI or dogged is cool though, that seems to be generally agreed upon. It's fluffy, would make them more distinct and useful, and goes well with their lack of cube.

People just want Haris in MO.

Yeah, but there's better stuff you could do there. Give it to Order Sergeants, maybe even let a Father Knight join the team. FKs leading around some grunts seems appropriate.

CoC on an AD Trooper is basically a bug at this point. It's no longer awesome and is literally unusable.
Executive Order is worse than CoC and has no function except weird shellgame shit.

He just needs to be able to either save the day by becoming LT as he drops in, or he needs to shave off like 8 points, because he's overpriced as hell.

Bipandra's problem is she gains too little. +1 ARM and +3 BTS is almost nothing in terms of survivability. She only gains WIP13 and a LSG for a whopping 10/0.5 in real value.

She's an 18-20 point model, not a 24 point one. And that does matter, since if linked, she can't take a Palbot either which makes her doctor's value less than a regular trauma doc.

Side tangent, but the main order/confrere thing need to fuck off anyway; it's an old system that has no business being part of the game now.

>Executive Order is worse than CoC
>He just needs to be able to save the day by becoming LT as he drops in
But that's what Executive Order does?

It seems weird that CB would not update old Dire Foes profiles when they tend to randomly change and rebalance stuff as they go. They are playtesting all the time and they have data on which profiles people take, thanks to Army. Are they not aware that Bipandra and other Dire Foes need some rebalancing? Why does Konstantinos cost as much as Yasbir when Holo2 and MA3 makes the Hassassin strictly better? They don't even counter each other, as MSV2 does nothing against HoloEchoes.

It's really a shame, because Pandra is a top tier waifu.

MSV2 is really good against most other infiltrators though. None of the DF are really made to counter each other.

Yasbir could probably go without smoke desu, without it I'd say he and Konnie are pretty balanced. He already has holo2 to close distance, he doesn't another tool for that.

>None of the DF are really made to counter each other.
No, but when the guys are in the same pack, cost exactly the same and the special scenario pits them against each other you can't help but compare them in this way.
Removing Yasbir's Smoke grenades is one thing, but I'd also think about giving Konstantinos a shotgun or a DTW. I know he has an Assault Pistol, but that is more of an active turn weapon at a really close range, where he's exposing himself to shotguns and DTWs, negating his Mimetism. Or just cutting his cost to the same one pays for TO Camo Sergeant in MO.

Also Yasbir benefits a lot more from being linked, but that is part of overall faction design, not something to "fix" with the character. When one is based around LI links and the other HI ones, of course the LI character is going to work better linked in the first one.

Fuck me man, that's gorgeous. Can't wait to see it based.

Linked Yasbir sucks nuts desu. He's entirely CC based and his linkable form has nothing to accommodate that. His associates don't really want to be in CC range of anyone, and all holo1 does for him is pleasantly surprise the enemy when he drops like a bitch after 1 shot.

Konnie isn't great linked either, but he at least contributes as a camo killer or doorkicker.

>Konnie isn't great linked either, but he at least contributes as a camo killer or doorkicker.
Barely. Combi Rifle, even linked and with Mimetism, is still just a Combi Rifle. For pure anti-camo Black Friar or Spitfire + MSV2 Sergeant is better, Konstantinos is a multi-tool. He's like Bandit when compared to other Camo Infiltrators in Nomads.

My point about Yasbir is that Muyibs are a lot better than Order Sergeants and Yasbir gives them some close combat protection. He's still better solo.

CC protection doesn't amount to much when it's only one dude, most of the time people will just shoot you and even if they can't they could stab one of the link buddies. I wouldn't ever trade one of the fantastic profiles Muyibs get for some non-dogged CC fucker.

But either way we're splitting hairs here. Both DF guys are far better infiltrated than linked.

So my copy of the manga has a section of pages that were bound upside down and out of order. Anyone heard anything about this? Should I contact CB for a replacement?

>Should I contact CB for a replacement?
Yes.

They'll probably get updated in Paradiso N3...Hopefully

Alongside Teutons, right? ...right?

Sorry, Ulrich.

I wish Montesas were more like Teutons instead of looking as bulky as Father-Knights.
Maybe it's the shoulderpads that do it.

Fuck you, Montesas look amazing and Teutons wish they had models and/or rules half as good.

It's more likely than you might think, since the Paradiso units will be part of VIID.

I wouldn't hold my breath though.

Yes.
You'll get new sculpts and shit old rules. The sculpts will be distinctively Teutonic and not good enough to proxy/convert as different orders.

Let's discuss TAGLINE "Chapter"

assets.infinitythegame.net/downloads/its-events/tagline-ch-6/en/v1.0/its-tagline-ch-6.pdf

A sepulchral silence flooded the area. As soon as the smoke cleared, we noticed the ferocity and roughness of the fight that had just occurred.
Nobody expected to run into a Combined Army patrol in that sector. Fortunately, the first shot
from the Overdron hit Eduardo. He resisted and responded to the attack, giving us some time to withdraw to defensive positions from which repel that scum.

When the battle was over, we entered the facilities to hunt those urchins from ALIVE. To our surprise, we realized that the triangulation of that signal led us to a false location. A small,
medium-range antenna and a comlog were enough to throw us off their track. In the end we’ll have to admit they’re clever. Before we even finished combing over the facilities, we suffered another attack from an advanced CA force.

It’s rumored among the troops that this was a trial by the ALIVE group that they lured the alien
forces so that we’d have to deal with them. Me? The truth is I no longer know what to believe—this is Paradiso. The enemy is everywhere and coincidences do exist.

I have the same gripe with the Montesas. They look great, but the fact that they only have 3 armor and still wear the same suit as the FK annoys me. I like some consistency.

If I leave off the contenders from the Mutan, would that be enough to make it count as a Surda? It's got hornes the other doesn't have, but I *really* don't see the point of the Mutan.
Also, is it just me or does the guy's armor look nothing like symbiont armor?