When designing a dungeon is it necessary to put on a epic boss fight at the end of the dungeon?
Are there any good alternatives to the cliche epic boss fight at the end?
No particular system in mind, I've just noticed this also repeats itself even in modern games in the form of the helicopter or tank at the end.
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I almost never put a boss for the sake of a boss. The only times I ever do it is if my players seem to really want one and I don't really have time to set something up proper, in a campaign where battles against singular, overpowering monsters is the norm, or in a dungeon where it has been well established that the entire reason they are going to this dungeon is to kill this powerful monster. Usually, major villains really aren't that much stronger than my players, they just have considerably more assets at their disposal, and an (unstated) knowledge of the script. Actually getting them into a fight is the hard part. Once that fight has started, they usually die quickly.
I do sometimes work a "boss" monster into something, but usually not on the main, most likely path. It's usually somewhere where I predict someone might try something really dumb. Since my games usually don't give out xp based on monster-killing, there is really no incentive to go out of your way to fight one and waste resources.
Good bosses are not at the end, but arrive when it makes sense and control the scene.
I'd say if you're gonna make one, make it interesting. Have the room filled with traps, have the boss change targets, summon minions. If it's a really big creature, make the players climb it etc.
Just don't make it a nondescript, white space where martials stand in front of the boss and whack it and casters blast it from behind.
>cliche epic boss fight
You can't just call everything you don't like "cliche" like that.
Honestly at least in my DMing, I tend to go for a "Boss Encounter" as part of every dungeon, but what that is varies wildly. Sometimes its a big complicated puzzle, sometimes its a giant monster, sometimes its a run in with a recurring villain, sometimes its a tense diplomatic encounter. Something to punctuate the "dungeon" whatever it may be.
Encounters like this can be really anywhere in the dungeon too. The giant monster can show up at the end as the final battle, or at the beginning as a recurring obstacle (Run through this dungeon as a giant dragon is chasing you through it style) or even somewhere in the middle that makes sense. Really, its just about making it so that the placement of such a big event makes sense, and adds towards the scenario and enjoyment of the adventure.
Not always. But there is some sort of "boss challenge" maybe a puzzle or other system. Something that allows a player who hasn't had a lot of time in the spotlight to shine.
It also depends on the last time I had them rest. I'm cruel when it comes to not letting my players rest their characters. If they are about to enter the last room of the dungeon and there's a boss fight, like a real boss fight. it's the first time their characters have had a long rest in a very long time.
Yes, there should be a climax in each adventure. Often it takes the form of a 'boss'.
Party falls into a hole. Amidst the confusion, a huge boss (dragon?) fight starts that depletes most of the party resources. Now they must find an exit while weary from the first battle of the dungeon.
It's generally a good idea. Stories traditionally function via rising action, climax, falling action. If you don't want a boss fight, you're going to need some other form of climax, or be really good at handling stories which don't rely on that structure.
>is it necessary to put on a epic boss fight at the end of the dungeon?
No. Boss battles as a whole are rarely as fun as you think they are. In tabletop gaming they're more often than not simply a normal battle that drags on forever.
In videogames bosses have two functions; to shave off extra lifes; and to force you to prove that you have mastered the mechanics of the game. In tabletop games you have no continues or retries which invalidates the first option completely, and indirectly invalidates the second one because only a shit GM would kill the entire party when they're so close to achieving something.
It doesn't have to be a boss, but generally there should be the peak of action near the end of a dungeon. A particularly threatening enemy or enemies is the usual go to because most systems, or conflict in general, tend to revolve around combat.
It's less to do with game and more to do with very basic storytelling.
These.
Ideally you can have the dungeon structured (if nor physically, narratively) in such a way that it prepares for the players for the encounter at the end. Gives them some kind of preview or throws them some kind of warning for what's ahead. A good finale to a dungeon lets players actually have to think about the encounters they might have to deal with.
Or something that scares them shitless.
Speaking as a player, my favorite dungeon my DM ran was something the rest of us eventually termed the "Party Tunnel." It had mind control worm-snake things. It was terrifying and the boss fight at the end took advantage of the shit those crafty fuckers could pull off.
Yo how would a boss fight where the creature can only be seen in reflections work? I had the idea of there being water easily spillable into the room (destroy the wall and there's an underground river) but not sure how to make it interesting after that one 'puzzle'
>Are there any good alternatives to the cliche epic boss fight at the end?
Two ways that I enjoy avoiding the BOSS AT THE END cliche
1. Boss in the middle or start of the dungeon.
It's a simple twist. But put the "boss" or big opponent first, or early. Then create reasons why the party can't get a long rest (maybe they know this going in, maybe they don't). Now suddenly every threat is a lot more intense because they burnt all their big spell slots, are much lower on hp, and used up all their long rest special abilities on the boss.
2. The dungeon is a puzzle.
This requires more planning, and it works best with a group that are open to non-combat problem solving. But you could make a dungeon where clues or keys are scattered through. And the players have to problem solve ways to get through. Then, in a way, the "big boss" is the dungeon itself!
>only a dick gm would kill off players
Why? That's part of the fun. If you know you can die and the story is over, you'll try harder to live. You have a lot more invested in the story and action. That goes for long campaigns or even shorter ones. If you're all but guaranteed we may as well not play at all. And it adds more tension and feeling when a character you really liked gets killed off. Or if you all die and you fail your objective.
Only fags want to play Everyone wins and gets a trophy: the game.
>Only fags want to play Everyone wins and gets a trophy: the game.
Gotta say, I usually find the opposite.
People with their Life on easy mode tend to enjoy the change of challenge and casual conflict of hardcore gaming/entertainment
People with Life on hard mode tend to enjoy just chilling and being reminded through escapism that sometimes you can enjoy an easy win.
Don't make it an instant thing.
Lead in with the dungeon having mirrors the party can use, to figure it out at first, then make it so that the creature destroys them all (perhaps with a howl or something), then make the puzzle where to find more reflections (to which the underground river is an easy fix)
Not true. Virtually everyone wants to win, and nearly no one wants to lose. It's not about playing a game with consequences, it's about playing a game that feels like it has consequences.
A boss fight should never be just there at the end of the dungeon. If there's no storyline buildup to the fight over multiple sessions, it's never epic.
Same reason most movies have the best and most important scene at the end. Not necessarily the last scene, but one of the last ones. It's just easier that way.
As a regular DM you're telling a story every week (at least) and it's not always possible to come up with that super innovative formula. It's always easier to innovate based on the already existing formulas if you want your players to enjoy it. You will not always have this super important plot twist at the end of the session, so you might as well substitute it with some good action.
>Are there any good alternatives to the cliche epic boss fight at the end?
You can do without a boss fight at the end of a dungeon/play section, but if there's not a big bad to depose at the apex of the campaign the narrative will probably suffer a lot.
>When designing a dungeon is it necessary to put on a epic boss fight at the end of the dungeon?
Only if you're imitating a video game.
Sadly, seeing how too many players "learn" about RPGs from video games, they expect boos fights and will think your game is "wrong" if boss fight aren't included.
You should put a chest with nothing but an empty note saying "Haha, expecting some epic battle or great treasures? What a loser".
Then the players spend future sessions tracking the guy who wrote that so they can kick him in the dick.
> In tabletop games you have no continues or retries which invalidates the first option completely
You can always just reroll characters.
>indirectly invalidates the second one because only a shit GM would kill the entire party when they're so close to achieving something.
Is it really an achievement when you know that the DM isn't going to kill you? After a certain point, the game loses its edge because you know that for the purposes of the game, you're immortal.
In every biome that exists, there is an alpha/apex predator so why would it be different for a dungeon with various monsters inside that presumably sustain themselves off of something whenever adventurers aren't around?
That's the problem with modern DM's, claims to be narratively focused yet blind to the conventions of the actual setting.
for a twist, make the dungeon entrance the only exit. when they reach the end room, make it look half finished. when the party finally returns to the entrance and emerges, that's when you have the architect of the dungeon waiting outside, confused and startled, with a team of appropriately themed minions with construction gear.
he's got a contract on him with the details of the boss who would have moved in next Tuesday.
I say we just share sweet ass epic boss art.