Pathfinder General /pfg/

My STR Inquisitor is trying to spread his god's influence, but his party's shenanigans make for a mighty obstacle.

Fighter.

If you play low optimization, fighter is good. Fighter is great. There's nothing you need to know besides how to hit mans.

If he's a bit smarter, 1st level paladin is basically a fighter with some fancy stuff. He can hit stuff there too.

Slayer if he doesn't mind how Studied Target works. If he does, then heavy armor greatsword fighterman

Tiers are a mechanical comparios on class capability, but it means absolutely nothing in comparison to the group you play with and the rules you do and do not use, as well as the kind of games you run and play.

Veeky Forums is very fond of shouting about how wizards are overpowered and can do absolutely everythingl, but that isn't really how it works out in play any more than the claims that they never overpower and outshine the other character classes does. Both are subjective - and more importantly - based on personal experience and heresay. The "math" says one thing, but actual play means a whole lot more since actual play doesn't take place in a hard vacuum.

Terrifying picture

Once again, just gonna drop this in here before I hit the sack.

app.roll20.net/lfg/listing/76813/trouser-serpents-skull

A raunchy game about exploring Sargava and acquiring booty

Tier lists are about the ability to bend plot. If you can't do anythig well, including killing shit, you can't bend the plot at all. If you're good at murder but not much else, you can significantly affect the plot by ruining encounters way above normal CR. If you're a full caster like a Druid or Wizard, you can simply ignore a lot of the plot with correct preparation and solve just about any problem coming your way, thus Tier 1, there's basically nothing in the plot that he can't solve.
Tier lists though aren't really hard-and-fast, they're more theoretical maximums than anything else and it matters more on your group and campaign.

Daily reminder that tiers are a completely useless way to rate the power of a class. Because there is no objective way that one could test for what a tier actually tests for. In comparison you could run a SGT and be able to map up what your class can do in a very concrete way.

I really like the warpriest in a crunch sense but most blessings are too weak

One of the things Veeky Forums doesn't seem to get about wizards is how piss poor wizards are on the defense if they don't have EFS.

Their saves are abysmal, their AC is abysmal, their HP is abysmal. Wizards require spells to try and shore it up, but lack many spells to help their saving throws.

A wizard crumbles the moment you throw a save or suck at him.

Barbarian/monk. Barbarians are super easy to play and destroy with. Especially if you go the superstitious-spellsunder invulnerable rager path. You can easily learn all about the game through just that one class. Monks while they don't hit as hard, have a lot more tricks and abilities, you can learn a lot more from all their possibilities.

Or if he is cool, just skip and play as a wizard.

actually suggests that a class could actually do. Fuck my brain.

Tier=/=power.

Tier=capability of changing the rules of the game to suit your purposes.

If Cleric was a 1/2 BAB class like it should have been, Warpriest would rest comy in its niche.

What non lewd games are currently recruiting? I'm willing to apply the games as long as ERP isn't a requirement.

Someone gets it

app.roll20.net/lfg/listing/76041/mighty-quest-for-epic-loot-in-the-lair-of-the-kobold-queen

Investigator will make him feel useful at just about everything he feels like trying.

Is there a list of common roleplaying or out of combat scenarios that you could use to actually, concretely test? Because I could claim that my barbarian is an excellent digger because he is capable of power attacking walls and doing damage to them by sundering it. This doesn't necessarily make it all that useful of a metric to determine how good they are at doing exactly that though.

It doesn't even tell you that.

Tier 1 and 3 are all about versatility at different levels of power. Yet 2 is somehow less versatile than the both of them. How the hell does that make any sense? Or are you telling me that the average sorcerer is more versatile than the average bard?

The original tier list actual describes several scenarios and how the tiers can approach them.
>There is a Dragon in a dungeon full of traps and minions
>You've been hired to root out and find a hidden cartel/cell of rogues and criminals
>The Orc army is invading and you need to get the kingdom ready for war and assist in the final battle.

A bard can't literally reshape reality with a wish spell, user. A wizard has more ways to break reality, but a sorcerer can still break reality over his knee with no effort. A bard has to put some effort into achieving his goals.

>Tier 1 and 3 are all about versatility at different levels of power. Yet 2 is somehow less versatile than the both of them. How the hell does that make any sense?

Tier 3 classes are marked by having a plethora of low-to-medium impact grade mechanics that allow them to contribute in a wide variety of situations. Tier 2 classes have overall less options than a Tier 3, but their options exert much more control over their situations.

What?

>brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.0
I actually fucked up the scenarios. CTRL-F: "For example, here's how the various Tiers might deal with a specific set of situations"

Tiers don't assume average, they assume a certain level of optimization. Not "pushed to the limits with FCBs and obscure magic item tricks", but generally about as far as a class can go without taking options unreasonable for a PFS campaign or using exploits reliant on wonky rules interactions. They're really pretty consistent with this in mind.

9th level casters are basically positioned like this. The average 9th level caster is a contribution to the team but not really any more powerful than the average Fighter. The extreme 9th level caster will destroy most encounters right from level 1. The tier list 9th level caster turns on at about level 5 when their save or dies are too consistent for most CR appropriate encounters to beat and they have enough spell slots to start dropping them on utility every day.

No, and this is part of why the tier list is only a useful tool to compare mechanical aspects of game breaking ability.

A player can play a wizard badly, and while a wizard by RAW is capable of utterly ruinign a campaign, a wizard as played in a game rarely managed to even moderately fuck up a campaign.

It's like the 'CoDzilla' issue in PF. If you look at clerical spells and domains, they should be able to outperform a fighter all the time, but because of how their spells work, how their stats have to be, and what domains they have to choose, 7 times out of 10 a barely optimized fighter will always outperform a cleric in battle, and that cleric will be so specialized that he won't be able to maintain a tier 1 rone in game, because all his spell slots and casting power is so specialized into damage dealing he effectively makes himself into a tier 3 or even tier 4 character as a result.

the tier list is a tool, and nothing more - it certainly isn't a guideline of 'the best classes to play' and it's not even close to being 'a comprehensive list of everything bad in PF' like people on Veeky Forums like to claim.

>another shorty applied

so we have colonial Europeans, two shorty waifus, a bishounen monk and a half-orc face

>The tier list 9th level caster turns on at about level 5 when their save or dies are too consistent for most CR appropriate encounters
I feel like I build my casters wrong because I see this and wonder how the hell do they manage that. Saves inflate really fucking fast.

Tier lists are actually a tool for GMs, not for players

Now all we need is a kobold shorty to complete the list

I would have, but momster races are a big no no.

Kobolds are a yes yes though.

Kobolds, lizardfolk, and vishkanya weren't on the blacklist tho

Kobolds and rougarou also got a buff

I enjoy the Divine Heretic archetype from Spheres of Power, otherwise it's not great.

You're not - it's the "white room theorycraft" issue.

In a white room with no features, casters are capable of everything people on Veeky Forums claim they are. They are automatically assumed to have taken the best feats for the situation, selected the perfect spells for the situation - and this is important - and their enemies are automatically the least prepared for the caster's capabilities (i.e. the enemies are never elves or undead at low levels, because that would mean color spray and sleep spells are not nearly as effective as they could be).

In real game play, casters rarely manage anything gamebreaking because shit outside of the white room is complicated - such as enemies approaching from two fronts, not having the perfect spell prepared, or not even having the spell that would be most optimal in a given situation. The theorycraft says "you you should have a ton of scrolls and wands with spells you can use all the time to effect the situation" but never really tells you where the time and money for those scrolls comes from, because in a white room theorycraft, that doesn't actually matter.

Don't listen to Veeky Forums's claims of overpowered wizardry and believe it utterly - realistically there are just too many things that happen in an organic and live game session that can't be accounted for, not the least of which is the other players and what the GM throws at you.

user, Rory wanted to do this campaign because there were going to be big-booty shortstack kobolds.

Fucking do it, live your dreams.

You shouldn't have too much trouble building normally. Your DCs at 5 should be something like 10+6 Ability Mod+3 Spell Level+1 Spell Focus=20. That should succeed about 90% of the time targeting bad saves and about 75% of the time targeting good saves or something playing a modestly optimized caster in a PFS scenario or against adventure path encounters.

Can I DM only having the core rulebook?

the kobold buff is -2 str, +2 int +2 wis, and they get prehensile tail for free

Which manuevers in Fool's Errand are bad?

Hory shet I had no idea. I'm out of time for tonight but I guess I'll redo my character sheet tomorrow. Thanks for the notice.

>Momster races

Someone needs to make a perky MILF that's on the Jenivere in search of adventure!

Yes, because if you have a laptop you have access to everything else on the pfsrd, like the spells and monsters and classes from all other books.

>tfw you really want to play the new character you made but someone in your group is already playing that class

You better be a kobold witchdoctor shamaness who can speak to dinosaurs and has a thing for shinies

rest in peace anonchan. Why don't you play your character but as the next best class, or instead be a manly barbarian muscleman who does not believe in magic

That shouldn't stop you, user. How else would you get Kurgess and Erastil Paladin Bros?

Fuck off, Rory.

>+6 Ability Mod
Most people I know usually don't go higher than 18 at char gen and the one time I actually made a caster that started with 20 casting stat I ended up regretting it. Maybe on a 25 point buy, but on 20 nah.

What class is it? Sometimes you can have two of the same class in the party without issue.

I didn't know Iolanthe had a sister.

be an old man user. You can EASILY get a high int at character gen if you are middle aged or older.

Witch, but even the builds are similar so it definitely wouldn't work.

That usually gets the book thrown at you super fucking hard.

FOR THE LOW LOW COST OF REKKING UR STATS

Do you think he'll allow two apps from the same person?

I could make Oni-mom but I wasn't sure if it would fit the campaign setting.

I don't even have to do monstrous race to do it either.

Go fuck yourself. Realistically any character is built with their campaign in mind, casters are good because they can prepare Enlarge Person, a summoning spell, a few basic utilities and then the spells appropriate of the game direction.

The argument against "white room theorycraft" here runs into the same issue it debates against by making a large assumption about how a game is going to go, but at least tier lists acknowledge the content they're designed to address.
A system-wise Fighter is still going to be preparing tools for the undead he expects to fight or the upcoming social encounter. Every character is in a bad spot caught out, casters just have more leeway, range, and power applied to these situations.

Is the Unchained Monk's flurry functionally the same amount of attacks as a regular monk?

The way I'm reading it, I get less attacks (by one, I think) but I get all at full BAB. Is that right?

Oni-mom would not fit the campaign setting.

Human mom, possibly Mwangi or Chelaxian, would.

>had my bard just die at first level
>our wizard died too, is coming with a barbarian next session
>now my party is all martials and it's up to me to be the knowledge guy and the face again
>party has a rule that we can't be the same class twice in a row
Any recommendations on what to do?

Wizards don't need strength or dex user you have a barbarian for that. Just ride on his back.

The iconic wizard is old

Its one less attack, but 3 full BAB

Damn, Oni are great. Consider being a lizardmom

The amount of con and dex and strength you lose does not pay for the increase in casting stat at all.

Investigator is what you're looking for, Senpai.

be a cleric. Stop your friends from dying while being VERY good at everything you do

>Wizards don't need strength or dex
Strength
>shadows
>Dex
AC and Initiative is pretty fucking important for not getting turned into hamburger meat. You also need dex for hitting touch ray attacks because contrary to popular belief those aren't fucking autohits on anything that actually matters.

Empiricist, more like.

Again, that's a nice thought but even the suggested spells you made assume even more than I did in my comments.

Motherly Lizardfolk/Catfolk woman who has done her share for the species, and is out to enjoy the world and sample some of the "exotic" men out there.

No, but it's far, far, far better.

Yes.

The Oni-mom is actually a synthesist summoner wearing an Oni suit to avoid homebrew races or tiefling oni-spawn

The human underneath could easily be a human Mwangi tribal mom who goes Oni on anyone who dares mess with her darling baby kobolds.

Only if you don't believe in the old smartman who is hitting at -2 with 1d4-2 damage

People also forget wizards can take weapon focuses and point blank shots, and tons of other abilities on touch attacks. But yeah, initiative is good. You CAN get a ton of it from everything besides dex though. As for AC, even with a decent dex, ac on a wizard is a joke. You can stack your shield spell and your mage armor spell, but their best defense is % miss chance from blurr, mirror image, etc

Alright. I'm trying to convert my Zen Archer over, anything else I should be aware of for the big big differences? Trying to read it, but comparing and contrasting takes a while, so I figured I might ask while I do so

And the iconic kineticist is a child which is also not allowed in general play.

Anything new came out about Starfinder?

Any ideas for characters and campaigns?

You will have to have a look at their martial arts and ki powers. Some of them are different. You don't get some monk abilities base so you will have to take them as one of their ki powers or the other one.

>can take weapon focuses and point blank shots, and tons of other abilities on touch attacks.
That's WAY more fucking resource investment than just investing into fucking dexterity, which is still by far the best accuracy booster you're going to get on ray attacks other than true striking yourself.

Like maybe this is anecdotal but pretty much every caster I've seen that dumped their physicals into oblivion ended up paying dearly for it.

My ideas are glamrock space captain envoy who plays the keytar and has a shiny jumpsuit with a huge V neck all the way down to his belt.

Or a space samurai or robotic ascetic monk.

"Or the other one"?

>ascetic monk
>in a sci-fi game with mecha
ANSWER ME, DOMON!

I don't know what the talk about dumping physical stats is about. My go-to is something like 8/14/14/18/8/7 with Toughness I might not ever retrain. Level 1 is rough but I'm usually not in any more danger than anyone else in my party afterwards.

Its like, ki powers or martial arts powers. Sorry I forgot the name.

Don't judge me. I want to crush machinery with my robot fists while not owning anything besides my hat and robe and beads and alms bowl to beg for credits to recharge

The real answer is to become a vampire

How do you build him?

I have an idea for an OC race to use.

I havn't come up with a name for them but they would be aberrants from a water world. A cross between nautiloids and conchs they have a shell that covers their "head" where their beak and the majority of their organs exist as well as their brain. The rest of their body consist of 4 large muscular "feet" where the ends can split into 3 digits. They have the ability to grow a disposible shell over these feet but it reduces their swim speed. This is important because when they leave the water they shape their shell into a humanoid form allowing them to move on land but they can't breath air so they keep a supply of water in their head shells that they refill every now and again with fresh sea water and often fill it with planton like creatures so they can eat.

They are very good with magic (good wizard race) but they are also very interested in technology hence why many of them venture off world.

Combat Summoner comes the closest, but Eidolon does not equal Stand fluffwise.

People complain when you make him a summoner, and say to try a psionic class. Honestly I don't mind summoner as him with high strength and unarmed strike

His lowest stat would prolly be Wis and it would still be 16