Tolkien made a mistake...

Unless I completely skipped a chapter or something, I don't recall Ancalagon the Black in the Silmarillion at all. Glaurung was the Dragon that Turin slew at the end, but Ancalagon isn't ringing a bell at all?

But it does scale to that size as Shelob can walk on walls. You can't argue against the empirical evidence user.

You might remember him as the bigass dragon that crushed the three volcanic peaks of Thangorodrim when he was slain by Earendil.

wtf I hate spider-man now

Show me the quote where Tolkien described Shelob walking on the walls, you movie pleb.

I must have missed this somehow because it's not ringing a bell. My memory is dreadful but at least some of that should ring a bell

It also wouldnt be able to breathe because its too large to get oxygen to its organs with the current levels of O2 in the atmosphere.

This is a bait thread and we're all biting. My turn.

Shelob is literally magical, she's the daughter of a fucking anomaly in the fabric of the universe itself. She can cling to fucking walls.

Does he even have Shelob clinging to walls in the novel? I don't remember that... she just "descends" on them. As described, she could easily just be hanging from a bit of her super-web.

Honestly, OP, it seems like a secondary consideration next to the physical considerations of supporting an exoskeleton that size.

We can't possibly know what the atmosphere oxygen levels in middle earth are.

>itsmagiciaintgottaexplainshit.gif

Considering that the fauna and animals resemble the fauna and life of medieval Europe we can assume it has oxygen levels similar to our own. Considering the prevalence of smaller mammalian species like Gobins and Hobbits, it might even be lower.

>We can't possibly know what the atmosphere oxygen levels in middle earth are.
It seems like something we could extrapolate by using the largest creatures described in Tolkien's works as references.

>Dragons spewed jets of oxygen.

Huge ass fucking dragons?
Huge ass fucking elephants?
Trees that dwarf those americano trees?
Giant trolls?
Huge eagles?

so which is it then?

on the one hand that mountain-sized dragon was pretty big, on the other hand those hobbits weren't

So?
High oxygen environment enables larger life forms, it doesn't force everything to become huge.

Huge ass Elephants and Trees does lean on higher oxygen actually, especially the trees. Maybe you're right. Perhaps there is a high enough oxygen content on Middle Earth to keep Shelob from suffocating.

Mammals are more adaptive to that kind of thing because we respirate through our lungs instead of through surfaces like skin and leaves, that lets us survive at higher and lower oxygen levels relative to other types of life.

So, taking the giant trees into effect, and the giant bugs we see throughout the setting I concede, the o2 levels in middle earth must be rather high.

>It seems like something we could extrapolate by using the largest creatures described in Tolkien's works as references
Awww, we're in it now, kids. Get out your goddamn bio textbooks!

I fucking love tg.

Whats'ername's an anomaly?

user, you think this thing can breathe normally, regardless of the oxygen levels?

The lifeforms in the universe were specifically CREATED, they didn't evolve.

>Awww, we're in it now, kids. Get out your goddamn bio textbooks!
No, we're not. The world was sung into existence and it's all magical. Oxygen levels are quite clearly irrelevant, considering the massive size of some of the beasts.

pfffffft

Them being created is irrelevant, they still reproduce and we can only assume follow most of our physics.

You're going about this the wrong way.
We know
>The world is magic
and
>It's implied Men later become the men we know today, so Oxygen levels are probably similar

We can estimate the Energy necessary to synthesize Oxygen from our atmosphere. This allows us the estimate the Energy output of magic itself. We can finally, accurately stat magic!

>The lifeforms in the universe were specifically CREATED, they didn't evolve.
True, but they still need to survive post-creation. Kinda tough if you can't respirate efficiently.

I'm actually with this guy. Trees and hellophants don't matter, but the eagles and dragons are a good indicator of O2 levels (and other stuff too). Flying animals usually exist right at the physical limits of an what an environment can support.

Arthropods breathe via direct respiration through the carapace. This means the larger the bug the longer it takes oxygen to dillude to the center mass and organs of the bug. Unless the atmosphere of Middle Earth was like 90% o2 that thing could not breathe.

Size of plants and amount of oxygen in atmosphere is related, like a circle.
more oxygen>larger animals>more CO2>more plants>more oxygen

Where does the oxygen come from? Are there amazone jungle-like areas? Do Ents produce more oxygen than they consume?

Is that a motherfucking airship?

>they still reproduce and we can only assume follow most of our physics.
Yeah, no. Eating two trees of light and a bunch of gems don't turn a spider into a massive creature that scares even the source of all evil in the world. There's no reason to assume that the creatures function by the rules of our world, as the creatures survival itself is in direct contradiction to them.

>magic is based on oxygen
Do tell me how Ilúvatar and the Ainur sung the world into existence from a void.

>True, but they still need to survive post-creation. Kinda tough if you can't respirate efficiently.
Who says they need oxygen? Ungoliant herself could not have survived at her size were the rules of the world the same as ours.

Yeah, so either Ungoliant and her spawn, Shelob included, do not need oxygen, or the rules are not the same.

It's a boat.

Ents are plants, therefor they breathe CO2 and exhale O2. They could be the settings source of high O2 levels, but more likely they just contribute to it.

To my understanding it's a boat with one of the Silmarills embedded on the prow. It becomes a shooting star later on

No, I mean yes. Well, that's Venus.

>Do Ents produce more oxygen than they consume?
I'd assume that ents are, on average, oxygen producers, since they tend to just hang around and photosynthesize most of the time. But during times of high activity (throwing boulders, stepping on orcs, etc), they probably switch to being oxygen consumers.

Typical plant biology just can't explain the amount of energy expended. Their muscles have to be aerobic.

Or, you know, they use magic for energy.

Damn Tolkien mythos is dumb.
Why would a dragon the size of a mountain care about the affairs of mortals?
That'd be like us getting involved in the politics of fleas or termites.

It's on Eärendil's brow.

You're supposing they have the same biology than their real life counterpart. They could have another respiratory system for what we know.

Considering Shelob's mother is a primal force of darkness that spun webs of pure unlight rather than an actual spider, I highly doubt Shelob cares about physics.

It would be a lot easier to fly on venus thanks to the denser atmosphere. More like swimming. There are the issues of being cooked alive and dissolved in acid by the atmosphere, but I think we can handwave that. Eagles explained.

This is a very good point, only aerobic respiration could allow for such high energy consumption. Honestly Id guess they do both, but this could be a good reason why they dont like to be very active. Its probably uncomfortable for them, like when you're running and your body starts burning lactic acid instead of oxygen and your muscles hurt.

Plants breathe oxygen. Old trees produce less than they consume, ents would probably be that way too. Ent genocide was probably good for the environment now that I think about it.

Because the dragon is a primordial spirit and the primordials were created pretty much to fawn over and prepare the world for the mortals. Only Melkor wanted power for himself, so he created evil things, corruption etc. and set to motion everything bad that's occured in the world.

Based on the design and description we can assume they have biology similar to other arthropods.

The ship and his captain, user.
They ARE Venus.

>Or, you know, they use magic for energy.
hmmm... nah. Seems implausible.

>You're supposing they have the same biology than their real life counterpart. They could have another respiratory system for what we know.
I mean, they can talk, so...

Seems like it would be tricky with those mouthparts and no ability to consciously exhale.

All dragon's wills are from Morgoth directly.
They can be seen as an extension of his mind.

Man I empathize with him, if I was told by my daddy that I had to prepare the world to be inhabited by ants Id be like wtf Im way cooler and more great than them, Ill take this world for myself.

>Plants breathe oxygen. Old trees produce less than they consume, ents would probably be that way too. Ent genocide was probably good for the environment now that I think about it.
There's the basis for a brilliant demotivational poster meme here.

>magic is based on oxygen

Nah
>Big creatures need X oxygen
>the atmosphere has only Y
>Delta E to create X-Y Oxygen is the energy output of magic, as Kankra et al don't use spells

>hmmm... nah. Seems implausible.
Yeah, a magical world, sung into existence with magic, with species created with magic, with magic being an active part in the daily life of the world, with magical artifacts here and there, with dragons and balrogs and Ents created by Yavanna herself to defend her other creations, there's no way the latter could use magic for their own purpose.

>Big creatures need X oxygen
Says who?

Elves suck each other off for eternity without ever catching aids.

That's way more implausible.

But who said middle earth need more oxygen or less CO2?

>Says who?
Science.

Yeah and because you're such a prissy little faggot, you lose your place in the world and get sealed for good outside of the world, until one you come crawling back to daddy, apologising for what you did.

Oh, do tell me, how do the dragons fly in the universe? Through what exact machinations was the world sung into existence? What fuels a Balrog's flames and what enables magic? How did Aüle create the dwarves? Did they all just breathe in a shit-ton of oxygen?

>a Balrog's flames
What. the fuck. IS. a Balrog.

It's one of the most vaguely described creatures I know, and what we have contradict each other.

>Did they all just breathe in a shit-ton of oxygen?
What would it take for you to be less retarded and not get user's theory so amazingly ass backwards?

They have fiery weapons and are possibly maiar linked to fire.

For him to stop trying to apply mundane, non-magical explanations without reason onto a very much magical world, with magical creatures and magic used as power and energy.

>For him to stop trying to apply mundane, non-magical explanations
Yeah, nah, you're still proving yourself clueless and arbitrarily contrarian. I mean, damn, son. That's impressive.

No u.

Ungoliant, as I recall, wasn't directly created by anybody. She crawled out through fractures in reality caused by all the shitfuck conflict between the valar from somewhere nobody really knows anything about.

She beat Morgoth in a straight fight and would have killed and eaten him if he didnt cry for his balrogs like a bitch.

>Ungoliant, as I recall, wasn't directly created by anybody. She crawled out through fractures in reality caused by all the shitfuck conflict between the valar from somewhere nobody really knows anything about.
Yeah, she crawled in from the void, which would mean she's either something made by Ilüvatar, or some kind of voidbeast, that just existed alongside the Creator. A true primordial.

youtube.com/watch?v=PGptm3wheK0

What a pansy.

u 1st, m80.

Just try acknowledging that you didn't "get it" the first time, and have been coasting on pure stubbornness since then.

The celestial and metaphysical stuff is some of the best parts of tolkien's writing. It feels like the perfect balance between vague poetic actual folklore cosmologies and the more modern settings with lots of rules and logic.

shelob is a spider like demon from the void

its not a spider

Still not an argument.

No, Ungoliant is from the void. She had a shit-ton of babies and Shelob's the last one to bother the world.

Well, he did get a lot of inspiration from actual, existing mythologies after all.

Still being stubborn, still talking to me when all I did was laugh at your mistake.

If I remember correctly, it was something along the line "He was the greatest Dragon ever and then he was killed by eagles."

Arbitrary contrarianism was the entire point of the thread from the outset, reread the OP. user just wants to be silly about a fantasy setting, if its really bothering you you can just leave the thread, but look at the OP and remember what you were getting in to when you clicked on it.

Yeah. My mistake was never pointed out or corrected, so I'm just fine and dandy repeating
>not an argument
over and over again.

Not an argument.

Yeah it was. Each time the theory was framed as "magic requires oxygen".

Also "magical creatures don't necessarily require oxygen".
>magic requires oxygen
Was simply an offshoot of that, me asking somewhat relevant questions that never received any real answers.

I remember something like that. Typical Tolkien.

Yeah, I can only assume the user who came up with the idea saw what a shitshow this was turning into and left with something better to do.

Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven.

What. No.
You have a lot on the guy in his space boat crewed by angels. The dragon gets a bit too.

Tolkein made a mistake.

Spiders are cute! CUTE!

Super cute

Ancalagon was bred my Morgoth as his greatest weapon against the Valar. He only cares about the affairs of mortals because he was bred to serve the Dark Lord. He isn't some sort of spirit, merely an enormous descendant of Glaurung.

What would the oxygen be synthesized from? nitrogen? Hydrogen? Helium?

I meant I remember it being only quickly mentioned, but it has been years.

Im sorry user but I can't even tell if your speaking Engrish anymore. What's a Glaurung? Who is Valar? What are Morgoths?

lurk moar

what the fuck are you doing here then?

>Considering that the fauna and animals resemble the fauna and life of medieval Europe we can assume it has oxygen levels similar to our own.

Cape universes produce humanoid creatures in abundance even though we know for a fact that many biological processes and pretty much all of physics don't work anything like they do in our universe.

Then again, a fictional universe of sentinent, star-travelling superamobea wouldn't have much appeal to plebs.

Tolkien made a mistake. Spiders don't drink the sap of trees.

Shelob isn't a spider, just some eldritch abomination in the rough shape of one.