Why does Veeky Forums hate them?

The poem is about struggling with a sin while struggling, but ultimately remaining loyal, to your deeply held religious beliefs. There is no allegedly. He was gay as a daisy, but he was too catholic to let himself fall.

I dunno, they are pretty cool 5th column legion

But I can count on one hand the number of battles that they've been in that didn't happen because they were hunting for the Fallen, mysteriously abandoning allies, or disobeying orders for 'mysterious' reasons. And most of those are from older lore - the Tale of Two Heads Talking is questionably canon now, the battle where Ezekiel lost his eye is from 4th edition, their battle on Piscina IV is also from as far back as 4th edition, even if it's been continually kept up.

They do have the cool shit you mentioned, but it is vastly outweighed by THE FALLEN, and that's something even a Dark Angels fan who went out of their way to look at their lore and battles will notice.

Well, I'll admit it's pretty front and center, but it isn't the end all be all of the chapter. It's supposed to be there, always casting a shadow on them though.

The real problem is that they've suffered from having some really terrible books and stories for the last few editions but are still inexplicably being pushed front and center with Cypher, a character who just drags them down.

I can't really speak on that front, aside from that I was disappointed with the Legacy of Caliban trilogy or whatever it was called, the one Gav Thorpe wrote.

It must be frustrating to try and find your own niche within a faction that has one large thing so overwhelmingly prominent in their lore. Space Wolf fans and Blood Angels fans probably have the same problem.

Not that i like that aspect of the 40k guys myself, but someone seems to have been blasted in an awful place today..

I don't hate them but god damn robes over power armour is a bad look.

They're my main army but as the years went on their fluff got worse.

>everything they now do is about the fallen, no fighting orks on Armageddon with Namaan and so on
>but the fallen are no longer unique as each legion had traitors, just in smaller numbers
>but they keep digging themselves more and more, becoming team killing fucktards on regular occasions over something that over the years is being written as less and less of a problem
>Lion became a team killing fucktard too, killing his own Legionare for reminding him of the psyker ban

I really like the Dark Angels, the Fallen and Cypher but they need something new. I don't buy DA-centered books anymore because it's the same shit every time. They're fun characters in Deathwatch books though, having somebody to bounce their dourness of and having something new to kill.

The Dark Angels Legion would have had to been quite large for the Fallen to qualify as a full Traitor Legion.

I think they have a pretty cool aesthetic too and like their use of Judeo-Christian names.

Guy Haley mentions in the foreword to Dante that surprisingly there is very little written about the Blood Angels with regards to Baal or what they do on their off time.

>but the fallen are no longer unique as each legion had traitors, just in smaller numbers

It wasn't until this became a thing in the HH that I realized how odd it was to make the Fallen a cornerstone of the Dark Angels, unless the point was more so to show their paranoia and their attempts to redeem themselves. On the other hand the Legions were originally much smaller so perhaps the idea was that they stayed cohesive instead of being spread all over the galaxy, thus meaning any Marines who implied they may not be entirely on board with their Primarch's choice could be easily disposed of.

Veeky Forums was literally invented to be a Warhammer containment board, newfriend.

So? Things change, that is no longer it's sole purpose, stop treating it like it is.

Why should you come into my board and change it and then complain about me using it for its original purpose?

I don't really care for them because they lack focus. It isn't even like ULTRAMARINES where they're just generically good at everything.

Dark Angels have their knight themes, but are also really secretive, and they have this whole fallen angel theme going on, but also they have the best scouts and the best bikes and the best terminators and the best veterans and they love plasma and all this other Bullshit that doesn't tie together well.

They have the only functioning Jetbike in the Imperium as a footnote.

It's similar to the reasons I don't like Grey Knights. It feels like someone wanted a special snowflake chapter of Veterans and nothing else.

Well, they are the first. Some level of primacy is to be expected

To be fair, a full Legion is a hard number to pin down. Some were amazingly small at times - like the Emperor's Children, or the Thousand Sons - while others were very large, like the Luna Wolves or the Ultramarines.

Caliban was a place to gather new recruits and such, and at least a small portion of the original Legion was stationed there. I wouldn't be surprised if they grew into a small legion in their own right, maybe 5,000 marines at least, probably more if they could hold off the main DA Legion when it returned home. Any less would make it why the Dark Angels have taken 10,000 years to hunt them down.

>Any less would make it why the Dark Angels have taken 10,000 years to hunt them down.
>why
The size has nothing to do with the time. The Warp is still, even in M41, spitting out Fallen who, to them, the HH and Fall of Caliban was just yesterday. It's entirely possible that they've grabbed every Fallen but Cypher at certain points in time in the last 10k years. Not guaranteed, but possible.

Why does everyone have to hate Dark Angels? I've mained them since that thin as hell 3rd edition codex of theirs caught my 12 year old eye

It's fine if they're supposed to have their theme center around being the first and best, but currently it just ends up with them lacking focus.

If their thing was Knightly aesthetics, having lots of Terminators, and favoring Plasma, that would work. But instead you have all this other stuff piled on top of it that just makes it a mess and makes it seem like they were asked to pick a specialty and checked every box on the list.

Because they, Blood Angels, and Ultrasmurfs take too much attention away from more interesting founding chapters, like the Raven Guard, Salamanders, and Iron Hands. Not to mention all the interesting successor chapters, like the Imperial Fists and the Lamenters.

>Imperial Fists
>Sucessor

user...

pic related

Success breeds jealousy brother

Fuck I meant Crimson Fists. I always get those two confused.

>Raven Guard
>Interesting

user...

Well, technically you aren't wrong...

>Because they, Blood Angels, and Ultrasmurfs take too much attention away from more interesting founding chapters

this. I'm just tired of hearing about them. and they have some of the worst fanboys

Players are partially responsible for what Chapters get codices. Blood Angels and Dark Angels used to be in one codex and proved successful enough to be split into two. Black Templars got their own codex and over the years floundered to where they were folded into the Space Marine codex.

Ultramarines get a focus because it was decided that their primarch would be the one to come up with the way of organizing Space Marine Chapters and that it would be their geneseed which would be used to create most Space Marine Chapters.

Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, and White Scars all did get attention to one extent or another, only sales can truly prove how interesting people found them.

To give each Chapter enough attention is hard to do because it either requires one huge and expensive Marine codex or a bunch of separate ones.

In a way this partially seems to have been Forgeworld's original purpose, to focus on other Chapters who don't have enough demand to justify separate kits, components, and books.

>dark angles

Well said user

This is actually why I like the Angels of Absolution, and am endlessly torn over whether I want to go Angels of Absolution or Salamanders

The Angels of Absolution consider their sins forgiven after the massive losses the dangles took killing traitors on their homeworld combined with trying to hunt down every last fallen. They are described as more laid back than the other dark angels successors and are known for their black humor.

They're a dark angels chapter who not only aren't all "muh fallen" but who are known for cracking jokes.

That's fucking great. I wish they got more of a spotlight, or at least fan comics of them annoying the other dark angels successors with puns.

DA were the original Ultramarines. They were the "all rounder" jack of all, master of none. Of course they will lack focus because GW for some reason decided to give the shtick to Ultramarines.

I wish people just remembered the successors more. They're rather flat, but they're interesting variations - the Angels of Absolution are less Fallen-obsessed, the Angels of Redemption are the most Fallen-obsessed to the point where Veeky Forums memes about Dark Angels are practically true for them, the Angels of Vengeance are stubborn as fuck, the Guardians of the Covenant most represent their monastic side...

That's the thing , the fallen is a self inflicted flaw.
then again it may have been because they only rebelled after the heresy had been supressed and horus was killed at terra, the lion all but fucking died and their home planet exploded in the process. I can definitely understand how it came to pass

because they get more play then best legion, aka ravenguard

Because they're Closet Heretics and refuse to admit it.

Honestly, Imperial Fists might as well be successors considering they were annihilated to the man by fucking orks.

They did spawn these guys though so they have that going for them

Fuck yeah.

I'm honestly not sure what GW was going for with that reveal. I don't think it really made anyone happy.

If only we all had such testicular fortitude in life, imagine all the shit we could accomplish if we had such iron will, inb4 IRON WITHIN

They don't have the best scouts and veterans though, not even the best bikes. They do have the best terminators though.

That would be a goddamn metal as fuck Chaos Lord

Veeky Forums doesnt.

>Imperial Fists might as well be successors
Does it really matter?All second founding chapters were formed directly from the legions.Those guys were IF in all but name.

>I can't really speak on that front, aside from that I was disappointed with the Legacy of Caliban trilogy or whatever it was called, the one Gav Thorpe wrote.

The only halfway decent book of the three was the Ravenwing one, IMO. The series only got worse as it went along, but the whole "well here's how they make X-Wing Dangles" bit in the first was okayish.

Well, there a level to which "best bikers" and "best Terminators" ties in to the knight theme, because Cavalry and Foot Knights.

>In a way this partially seems to have been Forgeworld's original purpose, to focus on other Chapters who don't have enough demand to justify separate kits, components, and books.

You spelled "superheavy tanks" wrong.

To a degree, the use of bikes makes sense, but what doesn't make sense is for them to be better Bikers than White Scars.

This is a fair point. They should both have elite bikers of different types, IMO.

Yeah. It would work better if instead, the Dark Angels thing with any specific elites like that was having Storm Shields and power weapons suiting the type of armor. Jump infantry, Bikers, Terminators, whatever, just have all of them going for sword and board to fit the idea of Knights.

The Dark Angels bikers being elite in the realm of melee would set them apart from White Scars, and adding Assault veterans to the list not only ties into their angel motif, but also makes it seem as though it's less that they're skilled at those specific types of units, and more at just getting in close thanks to a surplus of shields.

The real issue isn't the Dark Angels themselves. They are a conflicted chapter in a fucked up situation. They have done wrong. Serious wrong against their comrades in an effort to hide the Fallen. The real fucking problem is the fanboys who refuse to acknowledge that the angels have done wrong.

There were some interesting parts to it - I liked the cultists in the space station, the explanation of moving in Terminator armor, some of the general battle scenes - but the overall story was just disappointing. Sometimes characters that had been built up would just die suddenly, while other times characters that we barely knew would die and it wouldn't leave much impact. The story as a whole had weird pacing, with that main character marine being shoved along as if going through a checklist of which positions he was supposed to achieve.

Basically it felt like bolterporn - aw yeah look how cool this scene is and how we explain this thing from the lore - with a bad story stretched over the top to try and make an excuse for it.

But that goes against the overall shooty theme that the Dark Angels have going on, and also treads on the toes of other factions like the Blood Angels or Space Wolves with skilled melee troops or assault units.

>But that goes against the overall shooty theme that the Dark Angels have going on

Which goes against their overall knightly theme, etc. etc.

>and also treads on the toes of other factions like the Blood Angels or Space Wolves with skilled melee troops

Blood Angels and Space wolves tend to do melee in a more fast and berserk manner. Having Dark Angels contrast that by going for Terminators and Storm Shields as their main thing with Bikes and Jump packs secondary to that would help set them apart.

This is what I'm saying though, they're focused in too many places. If Dark Angels are the chapter with a focus on shooting and having the best most special bikers ever, then what are the White Scars?

Salamanders pull off green much better

Rerollable 2+ jink saves.

I hate them because i play as the Vlka Fenryka

No, not many Fallen actually exist anymore. The "list" for hunting the Dark Angels keep has seen most of the name crossed off over the past ten thousand years. The only ones left are the big names.

>Which goes against their overall knightly theme, etc. etc.

>Knights are known for shooting things

No

The only thing that matters is killing space marines. Fragging guardsmen because they saw shit is shit the Inquisition already does, and there's quadrillions of humans anyway so their lives are all inherently worthless. Nothing is actually lost when another regiment dies, their lives are literally worth less than the dirt they stand on.

Only because the popular culture is retarded and doesn't realize that nobility was running around with pistols in the 16th and 17th century, and were in fact, knights title-wise.

>But ACHTUALLY

No, it still doesn't fit when you're concerned with thematics.

Yes, Knights used guns. No, that doesn't mean an army themed around being knights should also be the best at shooting.

Dark Angels aren't the best at shooting. They have overwatching bonuses (who the fuck even charges marines besides KDK and Nids?) and bikes with plasma talons. Otherwise the Ultramarines are better with devastator doctrine and the Imperial Fists are better with bolter drill.

I was going off of saying they have an overall shooty theme.

Which again, just goes back to the original issue of Dark Angels having way too many things they're good at.

Not that guy, but I literally do not even give a shit.

Warhammer is a shite setting with a shite fanbase and shite prices for shite models.

And this is coming from a 14-year vet of that same shite fandom. I hate it and wish it and everyone who jacks off to how 'awesome' it is would hurry up and vanish already.

AS a IG player I am aware that they are expendable. But remember this:

"Life is The Emperor's currency. Spend it well."
-Merek Grimaldus

They're the first Legion, they're supposed to be good at everything. What's worse is that they no longer have access to the Dreadwing, Ironwing, or Stormwing.

>They're the first Legion, they're supposed to be good at everything

Which ties back to what I originally said here They don't have any focus. They have too much going on and none of it even feels like it matters or is important to them. It's like they're Ultramarines++ but don't even acknowledge it because they're so busy feeling sorry for themselves due to the Fallen.

because some people on Veeky Forums like roleplaying as ultra loyalists and get way too invested in minor fluff they don't like. the DA have their ambiguous thing and are sticking to it, which is completely ok for me, especially since they're only one of a bazillion of imperial or quasi-imperial armies who all have a need to differ quite a bit from the esteemed standard (aka cadians and ultras).
I especially find their background healthy for the actual tabletop, because it gives imperial armies more serious fluff reasons to fight each other, and given that around a third of the played armies out there are somehow loyal this is very welcome.

I find the slight closet homosexual connotations quite funny and I really like how they depicted the whole christian schism thing with luther.

This

So what would happen if an Angel of Absolution encountered a Fallen?
Say, if the chapter is helping another chapter wipe out some chaos warbands, and they realize that the leader of one of the warbands is a fallen. Would they, like the Dark Angels, drop everything and attack that one warband? Would they just heavily suggest that that warband takes priority?

They'd probably try to get that warband to themselves and catch the Fallen, and would definitely try to keep any other Imperials away from him. If they couldn't do it themselves, they'd probably call in the sighting to the rest of the Unforgiven. No chance they'd ignore a Fallen, they're just able to be a little calmer about the whole thing. They consider their own sins forgiven, but regard the Hunt as visiting justice on traitors.

I love my Sexually-confused Angels of Death!

They do tactics worse than the Ultramarines and are less flexible. As they stand, they're shooty marines with a love for plasma, plus options for a either a very mobile army via the Ravenwing or strong elites with the Deathwing, or some mixture of the three. They don't do anything but bikes and termies better than other factions, and the bikes only because the white scars haven't gotten enough love and have less robust rules.

What you want is for the faction to have depth and options stripped from them so they're turned into a one trick pony army like the Black Templars because you incorrectly believe they're better at everything when they aren't. A chaos player can also literally fuck with them by fielding a special unit that changes the entire dynamic of the game in favor of them.

Here's a question:
I've read in a few places that the Dark Angels give any Fallen they capture the choice of "repent or die".
Does that mean that if a Fallen Angel sincerely repents, they allow him to rejoin the chapter?
I feel like that would give the Angels a lot more depth because not only are they trying to hunt down their traitors, they're currently harboring former traitors within their own ranks, who are all invariably ancient and powerful.
Their dynamic goes from "kill everyone who could know we fucked up once" to "try to bring any lost brothers capable of redemption back into the fold". It makes the Dark Angels less "try-hards obsessed with their failings" and more "protect our own, even at cost to the Imperium".
Someone brought up how the Angels are weird because they're the only ones who have a whole conspiracy built up over the traitors in their legion, even though there are traitors in every legion. But I think that the real conspiracy is to cover up that the chapter contains Fallen who have redeemed themselves.

I don't know. It's a little noblebright for 40k. But it's a thought.

just an addon, this would obviously apply to the Fallen who went renegade and not the ones who started outright worshipping chaos

I'm pretty sure that they kill them after they repent. It's more the difference between a quick death with a saved soul, or a slow agonizing death as they try to force a confession out of you.

That's a very nice summary of what the Dark Angels have as their focus and theme.

You know what you didn't mention? The unique flyer, unique Landspeeder, and only functioning Jetbike that they have at their disposal for no reason.

You also seem to think I'm complaining about them having overpowered rules or something, when I'm talking fluff here. You can describe most of the major chapters in 2-3 words. 'tactical romans', 'flamer/melta blacksmiths', 'icy wolf vikings', 'tank-loving cyborgs' 'biker mongolians'

'plasma veteran knight terminator bikers' is rather overboard in comparison

caught fallen have the choice to repent, spit out secrets about other fallen and then die or being horribly tortured and then die.

they really are obsessed with both keeping their half-heressy a secret and getting their revenge on the traitors.

btw, the fallen are not just like single marines from other chapters who have fallen to chaos, they're quite literally half the legion rebelling against both the emperor and their primarch. it's really a whole different scale.

To be fair, Blood Angels have the Death Company, the Sanguinary Guard, the Sanguinor, Death Company Dreadnoughts, Dreadnought Librarians, a unique variation on the Predator, that semi-unique flyer only used by a couple of other chapters...

I think it's just part of a consequence of having a chapter take up its own entire codex. You have to give them something special beyond the default.

'speedy assault vampires' covers a lot of that. The only thing really out of place for Blood angels is the Librarian dreadnought, but there isn't really a Loyalist chapter known for its psykers anyway.

Space wolves are also an example of a chapter with their own book, but all their stuff still fits into that general theme.

If the Dark Angels were focused on 'plasma knight terminators', maybe they would have something coherent. They have so much unique stuff lying around, but unlike Blood Angels and Space Wolves it all just feels secondary and haphazard.

imo they're supposed to be a pretty 'standard' or allround chapter tactics-wise with a very strong emphasis on seemingly ancient mystery, be it tech-wise (obscure stcs like darkshroud or dark talon, lotsa plasma available) or in terms of army composition (ancient order of caliban as a model for their chapter organisation) and the fact that their information management is like that of secretive cults like the free-masons or scientology (circles within circles).

>You can describe most of the major chapters in 2-3 words. 'tactical romans', 'flamer/melta blacksmiths', 'icy wolf vikings', 'tank-loving cyborgs' 'biker mongolians'

Backwards-looking knights.
The Darkshrouds and Corvex are relics, as are most of the plasma, the Terminator armor, and the Company Veterans' equipment. Their organization is a throwback to the days before the Great Crusade. Their doctrine and outlook are entirely based around events from ten thousand years in the past. Everything about them ties into their history in some way.

So their theme is supposed to be really old stuff, in the setting where it's made very clear that older stuff is far better than newer stuff due to the heresy and how much has been lost?

Yeah, can't see how that would make them seem like they're Marines+1 or anything.

Nailed it! The Dark Angels are still fighting the Crusade, only now they also hunt traitorous imperials. So, I might add: "Most loyal" to your term. Remember that these guys are basically the Inquisition space marines, smiting all disloyalty everywhere. Only THEY are loyal enough, and only then because of their constant repentance.

Samurai were early to adopt matchlock guns.
They fought with spears and bows way more than they ever did with swords.
Yet people think about swords when they hear samurai.
Samurai even means mounted warrior, but that is not a trope at all.

>but there isn't really a Loyalist chapter known for its psykers anyway.

Well, Grey Knights and Blood Ravens are both kinda that. (Although the Blood Ravens are certainly more Tell than Show about it)

I should have specified those that have specific Chapter tactics, though Grey Knights also have Psyker Dreadnoughts, so it isn't like the Blood Angels have a thing that the Grey Knights don't.

What a great image

How do the Dangles treat post-HH members who fall, anyway? Do traitors/renegades from younger DA generations get hunted with the same degree of autism as the OG Fallen?

>Salamanders
>interesting

I just finished reading Ravenwing and Sergeant Cassiel was amazing.