"Yes, I am taking your freedom, and for good reason. Look around you, look at the horrors most of your people have to endure day after day, borne of the mistakes you mortals continue to make era after era. Free will is only a gift if one has the strength to use it, to everyone else, it is a rope to hang yourself with. I will take away your freedom, but I give you a better life, and your children, their children, and their children's children's children will thank me for it."
Does the BBEG have a point if he's legitimately making life better for the average person? At what point does the "evil empire" simply become "The empire"? Are most people better off having their lives controlled if they are protected from harm and comfortable when they would normally starve due to thei own ?
>At what point does the "evil empire" simply become "The empire"? When the player characters decide to work for them
Andrew Perez
When does the evil empire become the empire? When the DM wants to insert their own personal political ideals
Easton Murphy
>your children, their children, and their children's children's children will thank me for it this bothered me for some reason
Ayden Reyes
never, empire is always bad, kingdom is always good
Mason Diaz
>Are most people better off having their lives controlled if they are protected from harm and comfortable when they would normally starve due to thei own ? This is subjective. Some people in colonial cultures believed it was their duty to care for the "lesser" races.
Ultimately it depends. Do you value self determination and free will? Do you think you should be the sole determinant in the outcome of your life, for better or worse? Or would you rather be a coddled child, not trusted to wipe its own ass without the help of your benevolent overlords? Everyone will think differently on this issue, personally, I'd rather have the freedom to choose, and would recognize anything that threatens that as an attack on me, because I believe a man is the sum of his actions, and if he doesn't have the freedom to choose, hes little more than well treated cattle.
Cameron Jenkins
>fantasy Dr. Doom good choice
Christian Morgan
...
Asher Perry
...
Matthew Jenkins
Don't deny it OP, you just want to play your Not!Dr.Doom GMPC.
Blake Hughes
...
Benjamin Edwards
Yes, going full Brave New World on people still makes you the fucking bad guy.
>>hey guys, I vote we elect VOTINCLEX, VOICE OF HUNGER as our new leader. His campaign statement of "UNTIL WE SHED THE CURSE OF SENTIENCE, WE MUST ENDURE IT'S GROTESQUE HANDIWORK. ALL HAIL PHYREXIA" really resonated with me.
Adrian Stewart
Just listen to the Paladin.
Ryan Murphy
>hey guys, I vote we elect VOTINCLEX, VOICE OF HUNGER as our new leader. His campaign statement of "UNTIL WE SHED THE CURSE OF SENTIENCE, WE MUST ENDURE IT'S GROTESQUE HANDIWORK. ALL HAIL PHYREXIA" really resonated with me.
John Evans
No joke though, she was actually doing this for a good cause. Sure it was a little strict, but the entire human race was going to be devoured by parasites and she was building an army to stop them.
Aiden Morgan
>Tries to bring civilization to unclothed barbarians >They stab you in the dick You see, this is why its just better that we kill your warriors from a distance and send your children to re-education schools so that they may become productive citizens of the empire.
If it makes you feel better, less of them will die by mountain lion and illness under our care
Ian Mitchell
You mean like in Fable 3, where your character's douchebag brother was instating a militarized Industrial Complex on the kingdom so that it would be able to stand up to the coming Darkness, and probably would have restored things afterwards if you didn't come along and fuck things up?
Henry Brooks
>insert overlong speech about the importance of free will
It's a fucking trope by this point. We just can't have 'evil' anymore.
Nicholas Anderson
"You really think it's a good idea to put the fate of the entire world into a fallible being such as yourself, who even if you weren't it could be easily abused by someone who came after or that was better than you?"
Caleb Butler
What if, just hear me out. What if they wish to bring sanitation, wells, roads, and education to your province, in exchange for a 10-20% tithe of people and produce? The tithe will be lessened the less garrison is needed to keep the peace.
Of course anyone who resists initially must be promptly put down, and your village will have to pay the legion back with interest in conscripts for any of our own who fell in battle. Gotta keep those numbers up.
Everything is overdone. Everything has already been done. Even your special snowflake. It's all about the execution at this point.
Brayden Bell
>brain hurty when anyting other dan GUD n' EVUL get into da setting! >Yous jus tryan to confuse me! thats you
Julian Richardson
fuckers like you will bitch and moan if the setting is too simplistic as well >Your evil faction is just an orc/zerg/undead clone >lel so stupid your evil faction is just evil for the sake of evil >grimdark, why they no have reason to be evil? >YOU MADE IT TOO COMPLICATED WHY CAN'T WE JUST HAVE GOOD AND EVIL ANYMORE?!
This user gets it
Dylan Sullivan
OP here, taking this from the "Immortals" setting The Faceless Emperor probably doesn't consider himself "fallible" considering how most people including himself believes him to be a living god. 2000 years old and going strong, hard to doubt.
Mason Jenkins
>Everyone will think differently on this issue, personally, I'd rather have the freedom to choose, and would recognize anything that threatens that as an attack on me, because I believe a man is the sum of his actions, and if he doesn't have the freedom to choose, hes little more than well treated cattle.
This. Well spoken.
Asher Green
>hes little more than well treated cattle Sadly there are a lot of people that wouldn't be too angry about that, look at the liberal communists in 'murrica
Zachary Clark
So he isn't fallible? I would ask him then what standards he use to define himself as perfect. Then I would ask if he is perfect then how come he haven't won yet.
Ayden James
>So he isn't fallible? Yes he is fallible, extremely intelligent and experienced, but the empire has had a few close calls to complete destruction under his rule, that being said it also grew quite large.
>what standards Probably considers himself superior to all mortals due to experience, and superior to other immortals due to a healthy dose of ego centrism and the fact his empire is tied for first place in terms of population and landmass
>Why hasn't he won yet? Combination of other nations working in conjunction to cripple the empire's expansion and an army of genetically engineered coked out berserkers that worship fire and gorillas
Eli King
So since he isn't infallible, that's the argument I would take him down.
He would probably go 'STFU I'm perfect', then battle would commence. But after beating him I would say "See? If you are perfect then why did you lose?" Then watch as he had a mental breakdown.
Ayden Bell
Assuming you can get to him Kind of in the middle of a massive fortified tower, surrounded by royal guards, in the middle of his empire. There are people hunting him and the others you see, and there are other immortals that would be more than happy to see him in chains.
Sullying his hands with personal combat isn't something he would do unless backed into a corner
Kevin Williams
hello goetia
Grayson Nelson
Well, I take that if he is giving me the speech we are already at the final battle.
Maybe I will enjoy seeing him go full Sephiroth.
Alexander Barnes
Anyone actually willing to talk about taking away freedom as a good thing has dived pretty far into tyranny and stupidity. I mean that's just bad branding.
When you take over a "free" country, you don't tell them you're taking their freedom, you tell them they'd be more free under your autocracy then under the previous democracy, since liberty =/= democracy. A technically true statement.
If he was the BBEG, I'd probably just murderstomp him and take over myself just out of disgust at such shoddy marketing. Its just bad craftsmanship.
Landon Harris
No man is an island; he is not only a sum of what he does, but the sum of his use to others.
John Sanchez
Very inspiring, but you're saying nothing at all until you start laying out exactly what freedoms you consider inalienable and what sort of laws you regard as infringing your free will. I mean, is that even possible without some sort of government mandated mind control?
>liberal communists uh-huh.
Easton Sanders
>Anyone actually willing to talk about taking away freedom as a good thing But it is a good thing. The enlightenment was a terrible mistake.
Joseph Robinson
>Does the BBEG have a point if he's legitimately making life better for the average person? Yes. However, that alone doesn't mean he's right: determining that would require a more thorough examination of the circumstances.
Landon Harris
>They won't thank you for it, you fool. You won't live to see the mockery your successors make of your plan. I have no doubt your goals are noble, but you are as mortal as any of us. Even if you do not age, one day you will meet your match and be slain, or you will fall ill, or some great storm will cast you onto the wind and smash the walls of your castle.
>Once you die, everything you plan to put in place will crumble. Your sons will bicker and squabble over which of them my sons will serve. Your weapons will be turned upon each other and bathe the world in fire. Everything you've done up to here will have been for nothing.
>That's the sorry truth of it, you who would be an emperor. No king rules forever. Only Death is eternal.
Joseph Garcia
Well I mean the setting isn't necessarily 20-21st century America, it's possibly that "freedom" isn't the same call to national pride in whatever fantasy nation is under discussion.
It's not so long ago that democracy was a dirty word in europe and america, but now it's code for "on our side".
Cooper Hughes
You mean like in star wares eu where palpatine was militarizing the galaxy to prepare for a seige from the neighboring galaxy that he saw in a vision?
Luke Edwards
Mistborn had similar setup. Of course, in that case the Lord Ruler actually DID save the world before establishing his empire.
Andrew Cruz
But not your children's children's children's children's children's children! THEY will think I'm being a total dick right now.
Nathaniel Harris
Happiness, as you're no doubt aware, sometimes skips a generation.
Thomas Jones
In "Immortals" the Faceless Emps is one of the many forces trying to control the world, and when it comes to aggressive expansionist powers you have a choice between >Living your life exactly as the empire's standards dictate, right down to how you dress, but you will likely never go hungry >Living in steampunk communist land where the technocracy dictates your job for the rest of your life >Having your land overrun with red haired zealots who will likely kill you if you aren't useful genetic stock and build a giant temple over the ashes of your village
Or you could live in one of the many other larger civilizations, or just hope that your little village simply gets overlooked, which happens all the time.
Joshua Stewart
you cheeky little fucker I actually chuckled at that
Nolan Torres
The Lord Ruler actually conquered the entire world(or at least, the parts that were left habitable after his brief stint of godhood).
Jose Campbell
>he is not only a sum of what he does, but the sum of his use to others. His use to others is demonstrated by his actions.
>Very inspiring, but you're saying nothing at all until you start laying out exactly what freedoms you consider inalienable and what sort of laws you regard as infringing your free will. I mean, is that even possible without some sort of government mandated mind control? OP only mentioned the antagonists general philosophy, not the characters belief on specific rights so its not possible to argue against his stances. Personally though, I'd consider that negative rights must be assured except when a sound argument can be given as a moral justification for their infringement (e.g. taxes can, in my opinion, be morally justified, with some exceptions).
That being said, its about 5am and I'm going back to sleep soon so I'm not doing an awful lot of thinking at the moment.
Justin Martin
>Having your land overrun with red haired zealots who will likely kill you if you aren't useful genetic stock And...if you are useful genetic stock?
Jace Perry
>How pitiful of a man is he who lives in fear of death, he who has so little faith in his will and power than he bows to fate. >My sons may bicker or squabble, or they may yet see my goals through. I have done and will do everything in my power to ensure that what is right will be done. >Monuments only crumble and rot if they are not cared for; that is no reason to not build. >To not take action for fear of failure, whether now or later, whether it be improbable or near certain, is the mark of a coward.
Noah Nguyen
>His use to others is demonstrated by his actions. His actions may not be his best use.
Ayden Young
Breeding chambers at the top of the guilded pyramid Of course you have to be able to beat 9 out of 10 people in a contest who are literally bred to perform certain tasks.
Matthew Murphy
So.. his appearance? If someones greatest attribute was granted to them at birth, then it speaks volumes to their character.
Hunter James
>He thinks medieval serfs considered themselves slaves
You are adorable. Not quite. Democracy wasn't always considered a good thing, but freedom almost always was. No one wanted to be a slave or considered a slave.
Remember the heroes, all monarchies, in LoTR call themselves "The Free Peoples of Middle Earth"
There are very few places where you can advertise yourself as someone who takes freedom and market that as a good thing.
When you turn a democracy into a dicatorship, or a monarchy into a new dynasty, you either ignore the question of freedom entirely, or you convince people they'll stay as free/become more free once you're the Emperor.
Its bad marketing to act like that.
Ryan Jones
>Your arrogance will be your undoing. I can only hope you see that before it is too late.
Wyatt Rivera
>Does the BBEG have a point Yes. Sometimes being evil can help out people. Maybe this is necessary.
That said, he is still being evil and as soon as people are ready to overthrow him, they should.
Mason Morgan
Hey, better than Trump.
Nicholas Taylor
...
Zachary Wright
>He thinks medieval serfs considered themselves slaves In OPs case, the citizens of the Empire mostly see nothing wrong with the constant micromanaging of their lives by the local constables. Many of them upon leaving imperial areas find the rest of the world a disorganized chaotic dirty place
Charles Murphy
I'm not talking about the reality of their situation, I'm talking about how they view themselves and how the villain markets his tyranny.
No tyrant advertises himself as a tyrant.
Evan Rodriguez
> "Yes, I am taking your freedom, and for good reason. Look around you, look at the horrors most of your people have to endure day after day, borne of the mistakes you mortals continue to make era after era. Free will is only a gift if one has the strength to use it, to everyone else, it is a rope to hang yourself with. I will take away your freedom, but I give you a better life, and your children, their children, and their children's children's children will thank me for it." You are taking away the human's innate ability to make a choice. A meaningful choice. Without the ability to make a choice, humanity is no longer human, and people become nothing more than animals. The choice defines humanity. Yes, people are bound to make stupid choices that might be self-destructive and even actively malicious. But that's what makes us human. Without the ability to commit harm, the choice NOT to commit harm despite being capable of it loses its innate worth. You are robbing people of their humanity and turning them into animals.
Eli Rivera
That would imply that they were ever anything more than animals. That they were ever anything special.
You will find yourself sorely disappointed.
Isaiah Baker
Are you implying that people are incapable of making a choice? That every single human on earth is incapable of carrying responsibilities of their own choices? Personally, I choose to believe in humanity. No matter how self-conflicting and self-destructive it is, it is ultimately our choices that define who we are. What you are proposing is making everyone a philosophical zombie.
Jayden Lopez
The Tallet advertise themselves as bringing peace, safety and order to the world they are kind of correct
Ryan Walker
You believe their choices to be special?
Ants practice slavery upon their enemies. Chimpanzees fashion spears and war with their kin. Dolphins use the corpses of their victims as toys. Ravens can judge the worth of those they meet, and bring gifts. Rhesus monkeys sell sexual services to one another in exchange for fruit.
No breed of life is special. No breed is sacred. No breed is any more exalted than any other. All are damned to the long cycle of this world. Time and again, one group or another among the living seeks mastery, divinity, power over all others.
They are greeted instead with death. As the megafauna before you, as the great archosaurs before them, and as all the others who came before them, you will be nothing but dust. Your 'choices' may well have never been made at all.
What you believe in is a lie, fabricated by a creature with enough intelligence to grasp how small it truly is, but without the wisdom to embrace it. You will learn, in time. And in those final moments, you will find peace in acceptance.
Dominic Sanchez
>Better to fly next to the sun and burn, rather than wallow in the mud and shadows.
Christopher Flores
What? You call me away from my research? For this? You're joking
I couldn't care less if you are in power or not, I just want to make scientific breakthroughs, so leave me alone.
Ethan Young
Man as gestalt is more important than man as individual.
Hudson Foster
>You can't run forever. Surely you see that. What will it take for you to accept that it is not strength that spurs you to keep going, but baseless pride?
Josiah Evans
>abandoning freedom because lol quality of life
Looks like someone's in dire need of firebombing
Aaron Murphy
>Your 'choices' may well have never been made at all. So what? My choices matter to me as an individual. What's is important is that I'm here and now, and I choose to oppose your worldview. If I robbed you of the choice to guide the society as you see fit, yes, sure, you might've still been happy and satisfied. But does your satisfaction have inherent worth? Does your life have any inherent worth? Does anyone's? No.
You seem to be unable to grasp a simple truth. Humans' existence is fleeting, and if nothing in life matters, if nothing has its inherent worth, then we must create it ourselves. And with what do we create it? That's right, choices. It is solely by enacting our will unto the others - unto the universe itself - that we define our place in universe. A certain existence without a doubt has no meaning, because we know its beginning, process and end in their entirety, and so by enacting it we gain no new insight. An ambigious existence we know nothing about, and by observing it, by participating in it, by defining ourselves in it with our choices, we gain infinitely more than we do by participating in existence without a shadow of a doubt.
Hudson Walker
Isn't that what US has been doing ever since 9/11?
Caleb Morris
Not really, no. There is no definite quantity-to-quality transition here. Treating humanity's existence as a gestalt rather than a sum of individual wills is a mistake.
Jayden Carter
>We must create it ourselves.
You assume you have that power. Do you honestly believe that?
Eli Rodriguez
>hooray we are free and are in stone age but with guns
Easton Garcia
I don't know if I have that power. But I do believe in it. I have supreme faith in it. I am the knight of faith, and I believe that in this existence and in this life, I shall define my existence with my own power. I believe precisely because it's absurd. I believe precisely because faith has nothing to do with knowledge. And I believe your endeavour is foolish and I will stand against it.
Matthew Bell
You;'d firebomb people for choices they freely made? You truly are a 'murican.
Joseph Green
>Free will is only a gift if you have the strength to use it Then you won't mind me using mine.
Dominic Mitchell
This is literally the extreme of platonic utopia and of communism.
Taking away freedom is not only immoral, it shows that the BBEG has nothing but contempt for their fellow man. Any empire built on that will inevitably turn to tyrrany and commit countless atrocitires to adjust the universe to a skewed vision of truth of a single madman.
Dominic Scott
BETTER TO REIGN IN HELL THAN SERVE IN HEAVEN
Adam Rivera
What is this madness?
Jeremiah Parker
>Again, only the weak and cowardly restrain themselves for fear of eventual failure. >What is right is what is right, even should fate steal it away from this land the moment I die; hopefully the system I have put in place with survive and weather the tempests of time >I may not be able to run forever, but I will damn well try if the alternative is to sit and rot.
Sebastian Lopez
Surely you agree that there is a difference between a thousand men with swords, and an army of a thousand men?
A gestalt entity is greater than the sum of its individual components; a nation of a million people is greater than a million people.
Jonathan Clark
>borne of the mistakes you mortals >the BBEG isn't a human fighter Trash storyline.
Dominic Cruz
You make the assumption that freedom is good, and that individual is fit to use freedom properly.
Both assumptions are dangerous.
Leo Collins
Freedom is good, but only mathematicians have freedom. Without math, there is no freedom.
Because man is the master of man, man as himself and man as gestalt.
William Watson
Here's the thing
It's all well and good to wish to want to make everyone's lives better by FORCING them to act a certain way
That kind of stability is incredibly alluring and seductive
But it does. Not. Work.
How do you prevent corruption in your infrastructure? Can you provide plenty for all universally? Can you be everywhere at once and know every thing? Will you live forever, never hesitate, never change your mind?
Only an omnipresent omnipotent all knowing all loving western God could POSSIBLY fulfill all the obligations of universal dictator. Anything less amounts to a jumped up strong man who will spend 90 percent of his time struggling to hold onto power or get things right, until they die at which point things will immediately deviate.
This is avoiding the philosphical observation that without free will we cannot learn, and if successful you will only rule over a world of complacent and stupid cattle, not people. Lessons cannot be learned if mistakes cannot be made. What humanity needs is not a leader, but a mechanism for self improvement, spiritually and mentally. Civilization and freedom to leverage change upon it are that mechanism. Society is a process by which we all improve, not a state we arrive at.
You assumed humans were finished, or could be finished by you. Humans are far, far grander in scope than you can ever even imagine.
Grand? Do you have that much faith in these hairless apes, these mortal specks?
In but a blink, no more shall remain. In but a blink, their edifices shall be little more than dust. Your words mean nothing. Your faith, even less.
You and this would-be dictator share the same fate: oblivion.
Adrian Cox
We had an LG 'deity' promise much of this to a city, and spells proved every thing to be true.The locals bought in. As PCs, that would be boring, so we hoofed it into the hills.
Two game years later, we return to find it solved all the problems.
No shortages of food, no crime, no death, no disease, no poverty...even universal happiness. Every citizen, plus all who stopped by, were charmed into euphoria and the Stoned!
It was an interesting start to the campaign's final story arc!
Chase Clark
What'd you do, Satan?
Sebastian Gutierrez
1. A gilded cage is still a cage. Human beings are not meant to be kept in cages. Some of us need freedom to thrive, they need to be able to travel and choose what to do with their own lives. To torture these people is wrong.
2. What happens to those who are miserable despite (or due to) the BBEG's brainwashing/happy pills (or potentially good and commendable efforts)? They cannot leave and must suffer, and this is wrong too.
3. If you have no choice but to be "happy" the way the Empire wants you to, are you really happy? Again, one man's good life is another man's personal hell...
Josiah Flores
What freedoms are you taking away, and how will my life be improved? I don't give a fuck if some rich asshole loses his company, his private army and his superyacht. Freedom is pretty useless when you have nothing.
