Points and Power Levels

warhammer-community.com/2017/05/12/new-warhammer-40000-points-power-levels-may12gw-homepage-post-4/

>In matched play, your points will be capped across the whole game. So if you’re planning to summon units to the battlefield, you will need to set points aside to do this.

Lame.

finally

> in the future, points for units could change without invalidating existing books – so if one unit or weapon starts to dominate tournaments, or certain units don’t seem to be carrying their weight in competitive games, we can address the balance.
That's pretty neat - looks like they actually intend to give a shit about balance and actively fix things on a fairly continuous basis

GET FUCKED DAEMONS

-New mission type, Ambush, with imbalanced teams
-Handful of point costs for space marines, close to current values
-Summoning units requires you to have points set aside before the game, no infinite summoning
-They predict that 2,000pts will be appropriate for a 2-hour match
-All point values in a single book which can be updated independently from codices

>explain that you now need points to spare if you plan to summon units
>don't have points on datasheets because you don't need them in-game

This sounds contradictory.

>7 point anything
Oh boy it's volkite serpenta all over again, can't wait to never have a round number ever again!

Note that it's not just my autism, but the fact you can't do anything with the spare points means for all intents and purposes a 7 point weapon costs 10, as you're either 3 points under the agreed upon points limit or 2 points over after buying a 5 point upgrade such as a melta bomb.

Really hope we get a Faction Focus today.

You need them for matched play.

Maybe Melta bombs will end up costing 3?

>Other things that cost 3 points

But muh genestealer cult.

I guess it works for sigmar, but I'm in the middle of building a GSC built around summoning. Kinda sucks, but I'm not that salty.

Points ARE only ever used at listbuilding and will be in the main book so that GW can update all armies at once. It's going to be great for balance between armies - hopefully.

Faction Focus is every other day. We'll get it tomorrow.

...

Well, fingers crossed. If pistols are getting more than half of their cost reduced then I could see it happening elsewhere.

summoning still has value. You can call on a unit of the type you need at that moment in the battle, essentially tailoribg your list on the fly.

There's just none of the bullshit of having a 1000 point advantage by the time turn 3 begins.

But the main selling point of stuff like demons, according to them, is being able to choose if you want to summon a killy unit or something to hold a point for a while, buying that on the go, effectively.
That means you need to know how much everything costs beforehand, decide on a point buffer to keep free for those unirs and then need to know how much things cost as you summon them. Say I keep 500 points free to spend on summons and want to summon 2 units. I need to know if they sum up to less than 500 or not.

>In matched play, your points will be capped across the whole game. So if you’re planning to summon units to the battlefield, you will need to set points aside to do this.

>The points for units don’t appear on the datasheet but will be elsewhere in the same book. This is because you don’t need them to play if you don’t want, which frees up room to include more rules for weapons on the datasheet. It also means that, in the future, points for units could change without invalidating existing books – so if one unit or weapon starts to dominate tournaments, or certain units don’t seem to be carrying their weight in competitive games, we can address the balance.

Yep, it's basically deep strike plus getting to retroactively pick what you had in reserve. That's still quite potent, as long as it's costed appropriately.

True, I'm just concerned about the insane points cost of most of the GSC's good gear. I wonder if you'll be setting aside points for the base cost of the unit, or for every single upgrade.

Summoning could really bog down a game if you suddenly decide you need a particular unit for a role, then you have to cram in the upgrades into what points you have available.

their point was that they aren't needed to play a game.

not that you never need them during a game.

Why wouldn't you plan ahead of time for what summonable units you can fit inside your unused points in order to have statblocks ready?

Because the point of summoning is that you decide on what you actually summon mid-game. The prepared points are just to decide on jow much you are going to summon, not what.

Well, goodbye my traitor Guard, no daemons for you then.

presumably you play points for the unit and its upgrades. you're essentially just delaying some of your list building.

in practice it shouldn't bog things down much, id wager standard practice quickly becomes to prewrite up a selection of units to choose from that fit into the summoning points.
Say you set aside 300 for summoning, so you'd have already listed say 4 150 point units to chose from that fill different roles with the minis you have. Then its really just the same as regular reserves.

>Oh no I actually need to play by the rules now!
Yeah, so lame. I hate not defying core concepts of game design.

Right, but normally summoning powers list what units you can summon with it. If I left 100pts spare, I could work out ahead of time what 6-7 options of units and upgrades I could field inside that number of points, or inside of 50pts to do two small summons. Clearly there will be times when you want something you didn't write out beforehand, but this would at least cover the most common cases.

>Have 64 Bloodletters for Daemonkin Blood point summoning...

Hmmm

right. but you still know ahead of time what minis you own and what builds you can make with them in a certain amount of points.

Kind of kills the appeal of summoning, IMO. You'd have to pre-crunch all sorts of numbers with all the wargear and units GSC can summon

>implying it wasnt playing by the rules before
Adds good flavor, too

>Handful of point costs for space marines, close to current values
Hu, no. One Tac-Marine is now 13 points instead of 14, Grav-pistol were 15pts and are now 7pts, AND said to be the cheapest option (bye bye 5pts flamers and stormbolters), multi-melta was 10pts and is now 27.
Otherwise correct list, nice summary.

>Then its really just the same as regular reserves.
Yeah, but is that all we care to see out of summoning? Seems lackluster

>implying getting a whole army worth of free units on top of your army is not ignoring core rules

I bet you also thought that the Gladius and WarConvo getting hundreds of free points was also perfectly good design.

you'd be crunching all those numbers during list building anyway.

So much flavour in spamming razorbacks though!!!

So why not let me have them as part of the army as normal?

Summoning better be really reliable.

well yeah, its useful and still fluffy.
but isn't abusable bullshit anymore.

Well that killed my interest in summoning anything- it just sounds like deepstriking with more steps.

I spammed Razorbacks before formations existed. They're cool tanks.

Element of surprise and adaptability. It's basically better Reserves with a harder way of getting there to compensate.

>follows established rules
>ignores rules

Sure, you may feel like it was broken, but it's legal. Also, I dont feel like summoning, which was by no means a guaranteed thing in 7th, was anywhere near as bad as ultracheese formations.

you probably won't need to roll, you'll just have to deploy within range of a psyker... so the only way to stop it will be to kill every psyker on the daemon side

Ah, my bad. I don't play or play against SM very often, so I was going off of their statement that "The full squad totals up at a similar number of points to what it costs today." Apologies for inaccuracies!

You don't understand user, he once got beat by a daemon summoning list that got lucky- that means they are terribad!

I guess this is what we're left with, which is ok.

Just ok.

The entire game is balanced and built around the fact that everything has a point cost to it and points dedicating the size of armies. Ignoring the very foundation of what the game is based on is skipping past everything in place intended to have a somewhat fair and balanced game.

And they pretty much do have to get lucky, too, or they can fall flat on their ass.

Have you considered that the points cost of the units and upgrades in summoning armies is what balances the ability to summon?

Non native speaker here, doesn't that just mean you will have to wait to lose some stuff before starting to replenish your forces? Like you can't go above your starting point limit at any point.
Reading the thread it seems I'm misreading it...

No, it means you set aside points, bringing only 1500 to the table in a 2000pt game, for instance.

>kills the appeal of summoning when I have to actually pay for the units
>new rules need it slightly but make it still the best possible form of deep strike available in game on demand with the ability to pick what you want retroactively
>it was totally fair guize you just need to know how to beat it gosh!

I can accept that.

I guess I'll have to stick my battle psyker squad into a Chimera or something until they are needed for summoning duties.

>So why not let me have them as part of the army as normal?
well you can. you aren't forced to summon, its just an option.

No, it's stating that of you have a 1500pt game and want summoning you field say 1000pts and keep 500 left over to summon ie you don't get to just start adding an extra army for nothing.

They're going to make individual daemon units broken as fuck to compensate now, watch summoning bonuses be way too good and easily facilitate stopping entire armies from shooting or something

That would be the case if the summoning units would be unbelievably bad outside of it, but most of them can still put up a fight and function in a general sense even without any summons.

A mediocre option that can be better spent on other things.

>he thinks armies like GSC are the pinnacle and would remain competitve in 7th without ability to summon.

> tfw scatbikes are 20 apiece to be cheaper than melta
Thanks geedubs!

>well you can.

So I can just take daemon allies with Guard?

With how it's working in AoS, daemons are relatively mediocre on their own but get buffed to fuck with characters. Bloodletters can go from 1 attack each to 4 just through characters and up to 5 with blood tithe points.

We don't know the costs of summoned units yet but I doubt any of them are so bad that they'd only ever be playable if you got them stapled on for free.

Scatter lasers now wound Marines on a 3+ instead of 2+, they're totally nerfed to shit now!

Have mini-lists drawn up for the handful of summoned units you may want, check it when you pick your summon and then bring it on.

probably, you can now after all. we don't know anything about the new ally rules yet though so don't take it as certain

5e blood angels?

no problem user
if every unit and mechanic could be "just okay" we would have a perfect game

So I'll just end up with Guard painted as traitors and a some daemons good for nothing?

With how the psychic phase works to be more generally reliable, I doubt that daemons are going to be hurting for buffs in 8th. At the expense of summoning new units they'll be able to return killed units from the warp or some shit

if you get lucky, you might even get to deep strike those demons, oh the possibilities!

4th + 5th vanilla. I got some of the multi melta turrets from when they were a free upgrade and twin linked.

Deep into a trash bin.

Just give us traitor guard, GW, I'll pay you good money for it.

You're right, I'm sorry for picking on you poor demons players who had to settle for just being in the top tier and not being the kings of cheese. I'll be over here with my fucking Orks and Nids praying for your terrible loss.

Fuck off, crybaby. You're literally complaining about an army that's strong- just strong- not unbeatable, that isnt even reliably so.

But user, every army should suck as much as mine.

>The points for units don’t appear on the datasheet but will be elsewhere in the same book. This is because you don’t need them to play if you don’t want, which frees up room to include more rules for weapons on the datasheet. It also means that, in the future, points for units could change without invalidating existing books – so if one unit or weapon starts to dominate tournaments, or certain units don’t seem to be carrying their weight in competitive games, we can address the balance.
I'm okay with this.

>basic Marines now cost 65 blank
>Crusaders will cost 70 because they can take CCWs as an option and carry more special/heavy weapons

CALLING IT NOW

>40k v8.01 -Tactical Marines have been reduced from 13 points per model to 10. We hope this will allow players to use this unit at all.

> GW redo basic IG
> Replace cadians and catachan miniatures by a loyalist regiment of their choice and a traitor force.
> Both made so they can be easily converted to the other side.

Crusaders won't exist as anything but assault marines without jump packs.

They confirmed on Facebook that they're still around as a separate unit.

how would that be a problem? I mean it seems fair to me that they cost more if they have more options

ah, the good old days, I remember the last 'Ard boyz tournament and blood angel razorback spam swept our local prelims.

Shouldn't those costs be included in the options rather than the base cost?

Black templar players are the sort that thought they were special throughout 5th ed for being able to take 2 heavy weapons on their 5 man terminator squads, not realising it was because that was a thing every terminator squad could do in 4th ed which is when their codex was written. They're pretty stupid and expect a lot for their second founding irrelevant chapter.

It was because if that cancerous little shit, Tzeentch. Daemons would have been fine if not for him.

Seriously though, I was only forced to summon because half of my army was constantly wiped out before I even got within attack range. At the end of the day daemons are just t3, 5+ save footsloggers with no ranged weapons.

I'm afraid how they'll handle them considering summoning got neutered, attacks can now ignore invulnerable saves, monsters get worse over time, initiative and superior weapon skill is no longer a thing, high toughness isn't as potent anymore and overwatch is stronger. These are all changes that daemons won't look forward to.

If my slaanesh/nurgle daemons are shit I'll play Orks, if both are shit or if melee is still shit then I'm fucked.

not if the option is a fucking Land Raider Crusader as dedicated transport

So what may a rubric marine cost now? 30?

GIVE ME 8TH EDITION NOW!!!!!!
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

I don't want to play another game of 7th in my life. Everything revealed so far sounds good to great and I can't fucking wait to play it. Waiting another month and a half is suffering..

You have to look at it from a designers point of view. If they kept summoning the same and buffed the units you were summoning shit would get out of hand real fucking quick. Now that it's in line with regular list building, though still arguably better than regular reserves, they can actually make the units themselves not suck ass. I mean, it's GW, so maybe not, but a man can dream.

>every unit now has their own unique rules so you don't have to remember loads of universal rules

What on earth do they mean by this?

>literally "Power levels"

what the fuck ever

USR are now rules on the datasheets with slightly different names from eachother.

Which does not mean jackshit until we know how Transports work.

It's fun flavorwise, but to me it always seemed a pain in the ass as well because you don't know what you'll need to buy or bring. Tervigon has/had the same problem.

There are places where the system has its kinks in AoS, like the Ring of Immortality, but I'll still take it over the current one simply because it's more structured.

Instead of
>It says here my skitarii have "zealot". What the fuck is "zealot".
We have
>it says here my skitarii get rerolls in the first round of combat
So you don't have to be constantly be checking the brb. It sounds counter intuitive but it's really quite convenient.

Imaginably as simply as the AoS skydwarf ones do.

Not really though, when my DE opponent turns up and says he's got Shrieking Grenades or whatever I'm not going to have a clue what he means. If he says Furious Charge or whatever, I know it.