Be a cleric

If you think its appropriate go for it, if it were me though I wouldn't have the god betray the player but instead put him on a suicidal or impossible task so he can martyr the cleric.

I agree, it really does depend. The evil god might literally have betrayal as one of its divine domains, or the god might be evil in another way but even go as far as to treat its clerics as one big happy family. The DM should let the cleric know more about their deity rather than just its alignment, unless there is a good reason for the contrary.

The evil god has NO MORE USE for the cleric. Obviously he didn't betray him when he had uses for him. So this isn't a case of the god just fucking over a useful servant, but rather a useful one.

And I'm wiling to bet the cleric wasn't so much "betrayed" in a personal/spiteful manner so much as the god just stopped giving a fuck about them getting caught in the collateral damage of their divine fuckery.

Doubly so if- at any point- the cleric encountered a situation where someone honestly believed and trusted in them and the cleric betrayed that trust.

But let's get some details!

>>but rather a useless one

Fixed.

Depends on the god.

If he is evil, of course he will dispose of you if you cannot offer him anything else. While he could keep you around for other stuff, he could also risk you becoming a threat.

Only the Calculating Mechagod can be so radically utilitarian, for it takes a lot of evaluation to determinate such a dependant tool as absolutely without value.

Or a very evil God, who thought doing so would be funny.

>inb4it'sdumb

Remember for example Aku and the Ultrabots?

Depends on the betrayal.
Saying "fuck off, never call me again" to your worshippers is kind of dumb.
Sending them on suicide missions because you don't care if they die, or trading them to another deity in exchange of an artefact, however...

So the big question is, what does the deity gains by betraying/sacrifying the cleric?

That's not an evil god, that's a trickster.

It's evil to betray your followers.

Depends on what you mean by "betray" and "he has no more use for him". There's always use for loyal servants. The situation doesn't really exist.

I would totally accept a god with no morals treating his cleric as expendable, sacrificing and deceiving his followers when necessary. That's a betrayal I as a player would accept.

What if he did that because he thought it would be funny?

He is evil, he doesn't really have to justify why he fucks up with you.

Not if it's in the intial contract.
You can hardly complain if you choose to worship a god that uses head-or-tails for every decision.
See Eurmal from KoDP.

>He is evil, he doesn't really have to justify why he fucks up with you.
You don't really understand what the word "evil" means.

A general rule of thumb is that any player should always have a way of preventing getting their shit thoroughly fucked up, be it by foreshadowing, cryptic warnings, or simply not acting like an enough of an absolute retard to warrant getting fucked over.

Why does he have followers then? Why would the PC follow him? Assuming he can go follow an equally evil but less retarded god.

Enjoying fucking up with people is evil.

Boy, do I hate that flavour of villain.

The deity has followers because it's fun having them and he can use them when necessary.

The PC follows him because he wants to get power, but knows he will be discarded when the deity feels like it.

Maybe he is the strongest evil god in the setting?

>Implying anybody doesn't enjoy fucking CE clerics up.

>He is evil, he doesn't really have to justify why he fucks up with you.
Evil doesn't equal lolsoevil.

>He is evil, he doesn't really have to justify why he fucks up with you.
He doesn't but as a writer YOU do. If you don't establish motivations for characters beyond "cause evil" "cause good" then you will have poorly written characters and plot hooks that seem to come from no where.

Evil can or can not equal to lolsoevil.

If not what that is, good? Nobody said evil cannot be self destructive, mislead or stupid.

>He doesn't but as a writer YOU do.
Depends on the villain. I can make one with a complex reason or another that just enjoys being a dick.

That's not how sentient creatures work. Everyone should have a history that plays into who they are or they are a poorly written character.

"He's just a dick" is a poorly written character and will come off as such.

A God that interacts with people and presumably has Good opposites would be implausible if it was, because they'll be inherently less capable and fuck with the internal consistency of the setting, or require asspulls to explain why they're on an equal footing with everyone else. Even Gods like Llolth or The Horned Rats, the epitome of dumbass evil, have rationales for their actions.
Just because They're evil doesn't mean they shouldn't have reasons for their actions, or he may as well just be throwing darts on a board marked with dick moves.

>The deity has followers because it's fun having them and he can use them when necessary.

I wasn't asking why would the god want them, but why would the followers have him.

>The PC follows him because he wants to get power, but knows he will be discarded when the deity feels like it.
Then he's stupid as fantasy settings often offer multiple ways to gain power that don't include following a literal retard god. Not that I have something against some individual being stupid.

>Maybe he is the strongest evil god in the setting?
Then there's no doubt that Good will triumph in this setting if it hasn't already. But that makes the PC even more retarded as power is clearly to be found in good and not evil.

Maybe he's the god of making bad decisions

>That's not how sentient creatures work.
Except people existed who like stabbed others just to feel it or because they thought it was fun.

This.

Depends on how powerful the god is. If he is evil personified and any evil actions pump him then he can pretty much do anything.

>the first service you do for him is to become his follower

Depends on if said god's domain is also stupidity, treason and not having any followers after a few more instances of this shit.

People are stupid user. Or do you forget 'sell your soul to be eternally tortured in hell for a temporary gain?'

Also you cannot join good and want to get power. Good is selfless and not selfish.

>Good is selfless and not selfish.
wat.
People are perfectly capable of being good with selfish underlying motives.

If your motivation for doing good is not something good, then you aren't really a good person.

A good god would rather give his power to someone who wants to do good to help others or spread justice.

Are you colour blind, by any chance?

No you're a shitty DM.
If you betray people as soon as they are useless, no one is going to work for you.

> "OH MY GOD MY EVIL GOD USED ME BECAUSE I WAS USEFUL THEN DISCARDED AND/OR BETRAYED ME WHEN HE HAD NO FURTHER USE FOR ME AND NEVER CARED ABOUT ME AT ALL?!?!?"

That's pretty much the definition of D&D evil, yeah.

Was it a meme?

Because if you really meant that you can join good to seek power, you would get into trouble.

>evil god calls you the next day to apologize

I mean that you can clearly only see in black and white.
it's perfectly possible to want to do good and get something out of it too, like a doctor.
Just like it's perfectly possible for evil people to be altruistic towards things like their friends and family, or causes they agree with.

>Boy, do I hate that flavour of villain.

The kind that enjoys the fear, pain and suffering of others or the sense of power they get by inflicting said fear/pain/suffering?

Because morality isn't subjective in a setting with gods such as DnD?

If a doctor wants to be a doctor to get money more than help people, then he is neutral. Maybe evil depending on how much he loves money when compared to helping others.

If a doctor however wants to help people first and gets money because he needs it to survive, buy supplies and offer charity, then he is good. It depends on motivation.

Caring only about those near you is neutral user.

Good needs to do a little more than that. No good god will give you power to do stuff for him, when he can give power to someone ele whose interest is selfless giving himself to others.

>Because morality isn't subjective in a setting with gods such as DnD?

Especially considering that in D&D, the gods don't create alignment. Alignment is beyond even gods. They may have a greater affinity or preference for one alignment over another, but they can't decide that shit like the Book of Vile Darkness is suddenly Good or that Archons are Evil.

>Because morality isn't subjective in a setting with gods such as DnD?
There are objectively evil and good acts, but there's still plenty of room for interpretation within them. Like how killing can be both good and evil, depending on the scenario

>If a doctor wants to be a doctor to get money more than help people
See, this is where you're fucking up.
you can do BOTH and still favour one more than the other.
It's not fucking rocket science.

>No good god will give you power to do stuff for him, when he can give power to someone ele whose interest is selfless giving himself to others.
Assume you're a God that wants a servant to aid, but can't create instant supermen.
Two guys step forward. One is a saintly paragon who can't even tie his shoelaces together, and the other is a good man who also happens to be a polymath, who would you choose?

>Caring only about those near you is neutral user.
This has got to be bait.
So you're saying that an evil person who makes sure to nuke a city that doesn't have his family in it, that's neutral?
Free me from my tormenting need to reply, and give me another answer that's either bait or so stupid it may as well be. Then I can leave the thread without regrets.

There is not room for interpretation when you know the mentality behind it. Killing evil monsters to protect others is good, but if you do that because you enjoy killing then it's evil.

Yes, but if you favor selfish more than selfless you are not good. That's the point. You need to focus on selfless to be good.

Good is about posture more than powercreeping user. The saintly paragon would be picked. Also you aren't a good person if you are in it for selfishness.

Stop being retarded. Neutral people are in general 'I care about my friends'. Like evil is 'I care about myself' and good 'I care about everyone'. That doesn't mean someone neutral can go and commit genocide, that's just the standard expected posture ie not caring.

I would suggest you turning on your brain if you reply. And actually check what we are talking about typing something.

This is why Jesus invented kompromat.

Bad GMing.
Gods don't backstab their own worshipers. If they did, it wouldn't be long until no one wanted to worship them anymore.
Besides you can't have faith in a god if there is a chance that said god won't honor his words.

Thanks, user.
I'm free.

That is called being a psychopath.
Being evil means so much more than that.

>turn on your brain
>nah I'm free
Top kek user.

Evil does mean more, but it's still part of evil.

Children like to fuck around with people but they aren't technically evil.

Unless the god is chaotic stupid they wont fuck over a powerful and loyal minion just for lulz.

they would certainly be willing to sacrifice them to further their agenda though.

Depends on how much they fuck with people.

I should point that fuck in this discussion is betraying and attempting to kill, not just calling Jimmy four eyes.

This is way too generalized. What about "I care about my country" aka hitler?

Yes it is, because it's exactly a quick generalization to help illustrate behavior. Of course they are nuances but 'caring' is good for fast simplification.

But what if they betray those who become USELESS to them? It's one thing to be calous when you usually present a caring demeanor, but if your followers know from the get-go that anyone who isn't up to snuff is going to get the old heave ho when they're no longer of any vital utility- you'd still get followers depending on what you had to offer.

>If they did, it wouldn't be long until no one wanted to worship them anymore.
I should point that people are very, very stupid. Like that famous rapist who received hundred of love letters in prison.

But that's such a big part of it. Not just LACK of empathy, but actual malicious intent and enjoyment taken from the suffering of others.

It's damn hard (if not impossible) to be Evil with a capital E if you find the idea of harming others as a complication to be avoided when possible at best and deeply troubling at worst.

Why should a god dick over his clerics? Does he not care if no more people worship him?

Even chaotic evil gods know better than dicking over their worshippers

The key is the phrase "once he has no more use for him." If a player can't find a way to be useful to an NPC, then he is a shit player and deserves his fate.

>Why should a god dick over his clerics?

He wasn't any use to him. He has other Clerics that are of use to him. He enjoys the pain, suffering, and misery of others and who is more hurt and miserable than someone who thinks they're perfectly safe?

Exactly. The god has, in essence, fired the Cleric, and since the god in question is Evil in the grand cosmic sense, it should come as no surprise that the firing was not at all a pleasant experience for the Cleric.

>If a player can't find a way to be useful to an NPC, then he is a shit player and deserves his fate.

What the player thinks makes him useful and what the god considers useful can very much be two different things. People have differing opinions on the utility value of different things all the time.

>but they aren't technically evil
>impliying

>He wasn't any use to him. He has other Clerics that are of use to him.

Keep up the shit treatment and soon those clerics are gonna disappear

>Keep up the shit treatment and soon those clerics are gonna disappear

If all Clerics are so stupid to think that they can be useless servants to an evil deity and that evil deity will still do shit for them despite them being useless.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Children fucking around with people can go from small pranks to heavy bullying and even extreme stuff like raping, stabbing or trowing other children off bridges.
Children do that because they still haven't learned empathy, don't know what is wrong or right, and because they're testing the limits of the world around them.
Still not evil.

Those who become useless should be rather just ignored, discarded, etc...
>but if your followers know from the get-go that anyone who isn't up to snuff is going to get the old heave ho when they're no longer of any vital utility
Yes, but that does not qualify as betrayal.

Depends. If it was lawful evil and the player wasn't thinking about betraying him then bad Gming. If neither were true and the god still did that then your player wouldn't really be surprised.
Also what this user said, it wouldn't really feel like good DMing if your god basically dumped you out of nowhere for no reason.

Wait a bit user.

A child who kill someone is actually pretty evil. Even a child has basic empathy to know that killing is a no-no. There is a reason why we did send child murderers to jail.

>Those who become useless should be rather just ignored, discarded, etc...

Just treated neutrally?

So if someone becomes a favored agent of Satan/Darksied/Thanos/Sauron/Palpatine/Voldemort/insert evil entity here and they stop being of any use to that evil entity, the evil boss guy is just going to be like, "You had a good run, but time for you to retire. Go on and live the rest of your life in peace."

>literally worshiped the god of betrayal
>shocked and outraged when got betrayed
really makes you think
side note, I fucking hate my players

Yes.
That's a problem with how evil dudes are portrayed on media and folklore.
They usually don't have families, children, or enjoy anything besides being evil.
Evil gods in media might kill you if they have no more use for you, but that is just them being the antagonist in the story and the writer trying to make him sound as retarded as possible so you will hate him. But that doesn't make any sense, realistically.
In a ttrpg you can have a evil team and worship evil gods, imagine how much it would suck if your god just unnecessarily claimed your soul to his dark astral plane once your adventure was over.

Leaving that retired follower alive makes much more sense because it will help wonders in spreading your dark religion instead. Especially since people learn most of their morals beliefs early on from their parents.

Evil gods in ttrpgs are just like normal gods, in the forgotten realms setting they even exist for the same purpose as the good aligned gods.

Is it really betrayal if you knew it was going to happen and accepted it anyways?
That's like intentionally touching a hot stove and saying that the stove betrayed you by burning your hand.

>That's a problem with how evil dudes are portrayed on media and folklore.

That's what Evil with a capital E is. It's not just, "kind of a dick." You literally glow on peoples' divine vision, can be literally harmed by pure magic, and there are entire planes of existence aligned with you that are definitely not nice places.

D&D alignment doesn't exist to model the complexities of every-day human reality. It's supposed to represent grand cosmic fantasy style battles between elemental forces of chaos/order and evil/goodness the likes of which you see in folklore and fantasy media.

I can understand wanting to portray Gruumsh as the "perfectly reasonable god who wants nothing better than the peaceful and mutually beneficial coexistence of Orcs with all others" but that ain't the way it works.

>>Evil gods in ttrpgs are just like normal gods, in the forgotten realms setting...

They most certainly are not. There's a reason why followers of good gods outnumber the evil ones by a very large margin and evil gods have a far higher number of insane members and underground cults.

>>Is it really betrayal if you knew it was going to happen and accepted it anyways?

It apparently is when you expect cosmically evil beings to react to situations like a slightly dickish, but still very professional member of management who just happens to condone genocide and stuff.

>>That's like intentionally touching a hot stove and saying that the stove betrayed you by burning your hand.

Or complaining that the stove being hot is stupid, otherwise nobody would ever bother touching it. Therefore, in my setting, stoves are luke warm at most. Now it makes sense for lots of people to touch them.

Maybe not Gruumsh but that doesn't mean every single evil god has to act irrationally. They usually do, but that is just to paint them as antagonists.

What I meant by evil gods being just like normal gods in ttrpgs is that in ttrpgs they aren't extremely dehumanized plot elements that exist to serve purely as antagonists.
They don't even need to be the antagonists because you can worship them if you want.

Followers of good gods don't outnumber followers of evil gods. That may be true among the PC races civilization. But in the forgotten realms setting there are entire kingdoms where worshiping evil gods is the norm. There is also the underdark, a huge place where there is very little good god worshiping being done. And then we have the multitude of evil humanoid races that worship evil gods and literally procreate like cockroaches.

My point is:
Making Evil dudes act irrationally for the sake of being antagonists is too easy and is a boring concept.
Making your audience hate a character without dehumanizing it into a barebone psychopath is how good villains are done.

Yes, the "lol Im evil no reason xd". Boring, uninteresting and done to death.

>done to death
All villains are done to death.

>all ideas are done to death
Doesn't mean all of them are bad.

True, I was just correcting the last part. The other two are subjective.

They often have reasons. But again, we're talking about freaking D&D gods here. Their motivations and the scale of their actions are not going to be the same as mortals.

Being inspired by greek, roman and nordic mythology gods, D&D gods tend to have very mortal-like motivations. They do operate on another scale, though.

>What I meant by evil gods being just like normal gods in ttrpgs is that in ttrpgs they aren't extremely dehumanized plot elements that exist to serve purely as antagonists.

Gods in TTRPGs are plot elements. How humanized they are/aren't varies. Most elements of TTRPGs are plot elements because they're based on folklore/myth/legends, which are first-and-foremost stories, with consistency being an afterthought.

>They don't even need to be the antagonists because you can worship them if you want.

They don't need to be in the idea that players don't need to actively engage them. They and their followers are very much often antagonistic towards the Neutral and Good deities of the FR universe and to Toril at large.

>> But in the forgotten realms setting there are entire kingdoms where worshiping evil gods is the norm.

You mean where worshiping Evil deities makes up a sizable minority/slim majority, and those kingdoms are in the minority when considering overall population. And they tend to not be very nice places to live, relatively speaking.

>> There is also the underdark, a huge place where there is very little good god worshiping being done. And then we have the multitude of evil humanoid races that worship evil gods and literally procreate like cockroaches.

You're trying to bring up the societies of Drow, Dueregar, Illithids, etc and their deities as examples of perfectly reasonable, decent, and rational that never fuck over members of their priesthoods?

>>Making Evil dudes act irrationally for the sake of being antagonists is too easy and is a boring concept.

Or, it can be giving the PC an excellent example of why it's a bad idea to follow evil deities. Sure, you get all this power now, but it has a price later.

You say that it's easy to see coming and obvious and nobody would fall for it, but PCs do fall for it every single day. And there's no end to their excuses about why dicking around with cosmic evil is justified.

>>Being inspired by greek, roman and nordic mythology gods, D&D gods tend to have very mortal-like motivations.

And Greek/Roman/Nordic gods did ALOT of stuff for the lulz that leaves mortals going, "WTF?" Being one of their favored who eventually became boring/useless to them would likely not result in a peaceful uneventful retirement.

And those guys don't even function on the good/evil axis.

I would have to disagree with you because what matters when it comes to being "good, neutral, or evil" are your actions, the actual steps you take. So someone who is doing good actions (e.g. a doctor healing people) but for selfish reasons (e.g. he's being paid for it) is still doing good in the world regardless of his personal motivations. Now if he stopped healing people because he stopped being paid then he would be doing an evil action but in a universe where these actions have real weight to them the doctor in question would continue to count as a good person right up until he has made a different action in the world. His motivations don't really factor into it.

So when it comes to a god looking for a servant yes they would certainly prefer someone who truly believes in what they're doing but when it comes down to it they'll make use of anyone willing to perform the actions that they want completed.

There's also the obvious Abrahamaic influences. They're humanized pantheons, sure, but in terms of organization/trappings/dogma, etc, they all tend towards various flavors of Middle-Eastern monotheism.

Which would imply that doing things for the lulz is neither good nor evil.
And that we got a "chaotic" axis just for that.

He would be considered good at first but then would slowly become neutral and then evil if he continued to act like that.

>I would have to disagree with you because what matters when it comes to being "good, neutral, or evil" are your actions, the actual steps you take.
Not really. Feelings do matter, especially in DnD.

Are you really saying user that a guy who kills evil cultists because it's fun killing people and he know nobody gives a shit about them is good? Think about it.

You are completely mistaken. A good god in DnD wants a paragon and not a mercenary.

I'm sorry but this isn't how DnD works. Your heart do matter for your actions.