What's your opinion on redemption of demons and devils?

>you can redeem a pit fiend or balor too if you work hard enough

Who says pit fiends or balors aren't hot?

I feel like people are really keen on bullying pretty demons now just because they think it's unfair that more people want to redeem them.

Depends on the setting.

If irredemable evil, one way. If not irredemable, another.

It's actually more that demons were unreddemable creatures but some people wanted to regenerate them because muh dick.

It's like the retard thought sequence of sending a serial rapist love letters, which happens in real life.

Something that's talked about on Veeky Forums a lot yet people act like this discussion has never before been had.

Reconcilers are the best faction.

I don't think that is a faction.

Neat, I'm reminded of that goofy doom mates setting on one of the /aco/ threads, think life with monster girls with more wold building, and doom. Point is after many failed invasions that end in one marine pushing their shit in, chunks of hell get fed up with being evil and think the UAC can offer a better deal

Rising/falling is a matter of perspective. A demon in my setting will do good if it fits their purpose, goal and nature and then turn around and do something evil because, again, that specific action is within their nature.

It is a case of different perspective and morality that humans misinterpret as good/evil.

An angel can fall, but can a demon rise?

Yes. It's nature compels it towards malice, but by conscious effort and deciding every day, it can.

There's a particular reason why a fallen angel is so much more common than a risen demon, it's a matter of chosing the self over the group, or the group over the self.

whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Faction_(DTF)

I'm fine with it, but I think if I use demons for my setting(s) it's likely to either be a label attached to practically any spiritual entities perceived as evil by mortals, or as the result of a corrupting Hell-like force/location that consistently traumatizes, maddens, and/or mutates souls but doesn't necessarily make them evil per se.

Redemption should be a form of torture for demons/devils. The inherent contradiction should feel to them as the worst torment/torture imaginable.

depends.
If it is one of the demons considered such through magical attribute/ appearance/ relation, than it might have never been evil to begin with.

If it is one of those said to be a demon for being both a magical and malicious creature, then smiting is better.

and yes, succubi do not exist in my setting

>What's your opinion on redemption of demons and devils?
Depends on the setting, but it should be consistent. If it's a setting where devils are inherently pure, concentrated evil and angels are pure good, I don't want to see any of that shit. If it's one where angels can fall, then demons should be able to rise.

> What's your opinion on redemption of demons and devils?

It can happen, but it should never be easy and it should never be common.

But done right it is fantastic.

>What's your opinion on redemption of demons and devils?

I don't actually turn my Demons/Devils into Angels and vice versa if they've been "redeemed", if that's what you're implying.
They turn into Fey.
I also think having them commit to such a violent heel-turn when they're "redeemed", is the goofiest part about it if anything.

A fair share of Demons & Devils that enter the physical world can't actually keep up hellish appearances for the long run, they become broken down and comfortable: the people are kind, the food is good, no demonic bureaucracy hounding them, they get a taste of 'true freedom' and they don't want to give it up to serve another, so they become corrupted into fey.

Even something simple as a Hellhound is susceptible to corruption: a land where he isn't being whipped, a land where prey is plentiful and slow, a land without masters, where life is easy.

Bullying is purest love.

>What's your opinion on redemption of demons and devils?

If you somehow found a way to redeem a devil, you could possibly convert it to the form of an immortal. However, if you "redeemed" a demon, you'd probably just end up with an elemental that's still quite violent.

It depends.

If they are fallen angels in your setting, it should be possible. Though rare.
The D&D 3rd mythos paints Devils as angels who were tainted by their fight against the Demons, who see their cruelty as a necessary evil to fight the destructive forces of Chaos.

In the Christian mythos, they were angels (beings supposed to be without free will) who joined a rebellion against the creator god. Yet, it is also said that Hell is locked from the inside.

If they are instead an more of an axiomatic elemental, like the Inevitibles are for Pure Law or the Slaadi for Pure Chaos, then it should be extremely rare, (As it would be akin to a Fire Elemental coming to understand and expose the virtues of being Water.) but still possible if they have individual personalities.
However, their form would likely change into their new alignment's appearance.

I think it's boring if a sentient species has to all share the same personality traits and morality. Demons and devils are obviously intelligent beings in 90% of settings, they should have the same mental diversity that humans have, which means to me that some are evil, some are good, and some are in-between.

In regards to OP's question, that means that I do believe that demons and devils should be able to be redeemed in the sense that they aren't actively seeking death and destruction, and wish for the well-being of all sentient beings.

And if demons and devils can pursue that kind of altruism, and are part of a setting where they are demons because God cast them down from heaven, then they should be redeemed in a more literal sense by God.

And if God doesn't allow redemption, then that God never deserved our worship in the first place and deserves to be cast down themselves (rage against the unfairness of God or the gods is one of my favorite kinds of stories).

Either way, it makes for some great story material.

Moar

Stupid beyond any reasoning. Demons and Devils occupy a cosmic position of True Evil. You can't redeem True Evil, otherwise it ain't True Evil.
Making Demons and Devils different creatures, with different motivations is how you play this trope right, but you should never redeem them: to them what they do isn't wrong, how could it be wrong? It is their very defining nature and trait.

Depends heavily on the nature of demons/devils in the setting in particular, and whethe or not such entities actually have agency and free-will of their own.

Also any more of your pic OP?

What if redeeming them transforms them into a new being?

Depends on the setting.

Christian demons are angels that rebelled against God, so since they seem to have choice then they probably could redeem themselves.

In the forgotten realms there is no way to redeem a demon or devil because they are literally evil materialized as magical monsters and have no free will.

But there's also the issue of them being portrayed as boring BBEG antagonists. There are stories where a being made of pure good essence gets corrupted but I've never seen one where a demon seeks redemption.

In the end, the one guiding the narrative can do anything he wants, I guess.

A little

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I think the idea that there can be sapient creatures of pure good and evil is a little ridiculous, so I tend to avoid the whole demon and angels thing as a whole, and if I had them I wouldn't see any reason it would be too much harder for them to fall/rise than a human, aside from maybe natural inclinations and tendencies towards certain mindsets like how different animals act differently.

>4 arms
>horns
>dark eyes
>teeth
>dark skin
>reptile legs
>EXTRA THICC
I know EXACTLY why I have this boner

The setting I usually use has "demon" as a general descriptor for anything that is bound to the "demon world" (tighter cosmology than most D&D, total of 7 "planes"). This ranges from terrestrial entities like dragons (who while greedy and selfish creatures can very easily be on the side of righteousness) to faustian-sell-your-soul devils, and creaures born from human souls, like succubi/incubi. Most are generally anti-human, which in our terms would essentially mean evil, but individually, all species of demon can be "humanizers", or pro-human, for any number of reasons, so virtuous demons are by no means unheard of, and canonically a certain demon lord has assisted in saving the human world more times than he would admit to.

Not pictured
> puffy vulva

>What's your opinion on redemption of demons and devils?
Yes.

It's the kind of thing that they'd really be too prideful to embrace for the most part and I'd certainly use it as an in to have them lie and fuck with the players who tried to do something like that, to say nothing of the fact that I prefer to run them as an evil counter point to biblical angels, as masses of uncountable formless eldritch beings, with the fear that implies. Redemption is not on the options list.

Now that's a good point, and a storytelling achievement: to change the very basic notion of a creature in its core.
But that would be too much plot related, and it would need agency from everyone involved, including the players. Could make an amazing campaign.

Where can I learn more about my new wife?

Matsu-sensei, of "Touch the cow do it now" fame.

Something about a Catholic school, where breast feeding and fellacio are are holy acts.

Or even funnier, a being made of pure evil essence getting corrupted by good.
Accidentally doing nice things. Twisted into helping people. Not being a dick to others, and not knowing why.
I would pay good money to watch the hilarious mental turmoil of that shit.

...

>Oh yeah, totally gonna murder that old lady on the sidewalk
5 minutes later
>"Oh, thank you so much for carrying my groceries, young man. It's good to know that there are still decent young people out there these days."
>Tha fuck did I just do?!

Succubi can be redeemed, shown in two instances in D&D, and Devils, well, it depends on the type. All devils made from the torture process are next-to-nigh impossible to sace, Erinyes, maybe, any fallen and or corrupted sorts are also up for salvation

Then they head home, and head into the torture chamber, and give everyone a relaxing, de-back-kinking massage, realise what they've done, and sob themselves to sleep in the shower with a bottle of free trade virgin blood.

>Devils screwing up evil is the real root cause the internet jokes about how lewd hand holding and consensual sex in the missionary position for the purposes of procreation are considered came to be.

>not smiting the demon on sight
And smite the angels too. God damn bipolar fucks are as bad as each other, messing up the balance of the universe.

YES.
>Succubus goes after a target to tempt a mortal into debauchery
>Gets too invested in mario kart
>Twelve hour vidya/netflix binge instead of debauchery
>Fall asleep on the couch together
>IT KEEPS HAPPENING

Wait, is this Touch The ... fucking knew it. If memory serves, he does some delicious Dragon Crown stuff too. And by delicious I do mean thicc.

Demons/non 'humans' in general can be a fun time to play with 'your good is not my good'- especially if they're a recurring character that has an attachment to the party that leans towards 'fond'.
>I love you, hero
>That's why I'm going to keep you and torture you forever

wait, where does this stuff come from?
I searched the guy's deviant art, nothing.

>Young succubi in rebellious teen age phase.
>"No fuck you dad, it's not just a phase! I'm a paladin of Pelor now!"
>Mostly just going through the motions for the thrill and glory, but over time comes to enjoy the gratitude the peasants have for her after saving the town from demons and through many trials and tribulations she is eventually redeemed in the eyes of her god.
>Adult version having to resist the urge to fuck every man in the room, but her will is strong and she will persevere.

...

You see, demons are supposed to be fallen angels. Essentially people with mistakes like us, but they are much, much more powerful. For them to be redeemed should be a very difficult task. The way I see it, they don't work in hell. They actually suffer with the sinners, but keep them down there as well, because it's the only thing left they can do since they no longer have the holy obligation of helping us.
I see it more as a guardian angel turned into a succubi during a hormonal teens life, as he slowly went from pure to a creep who rapes

I ironically love it.

Daemons represented via media nowadays are usually just seen as the link between pure good and pure evil, but can change side easily as if they were human

Anyone religious here willing to proof resd what I said by reading the Bible/religious text or share their thoughts while I look at the posts I skipped?

About how many layers of irony?

Faith requires no proof, dummy.
Wouldn't be faith if it did.

They can be cute if they want to be.

Only two. What really gets me going is cute, monogamous succubutts who subsist on semen instead of souls.

I've always felt this is the best way to run it, with the individuals more developed than the sides.
>Quiet, calm angel allows insane political activists to blow up parliament because the net gain of virtue will be greater in the wake of the tragedy, and it's just mortals fucking each other up, after all
>Fire and brimstone angry angel slaps everyone he meets with a not-Penance-Stare; If you're good, it won't hurt much, and it's judgement you deserve anyway
>Devil bound to guard a location gives three warnings before completely fucking up intruders, is willing to have philosophy discussions at the edge of the restricted area (he's still aware of the rest of the perimeter)
>Demon sides with smaller army and gets tired slaughtering the bigger one, is massively confused to be hailed as a hero, given tribute, and paraded through the streets; somehow never gets around to slaughtering smaller army country

Human can't subsists on semen alone, /d/ did math on this and they were cross-checking the dietary facts with Veeky Forums, so it's like two best authorities on the case. The problem is nutrients are so diluted that consuming enough to sustain yourself would give you kidney failure.

So you could subsist on semen and fresh kidneys?

Manga based on this subject kinda sorta?

bato.to/comic/_/comics/musuko-ga-kawaikute-shikataganai-mazoku-no-hahaoya-r19526

I think that would be obvious, and you grossly misunderstood my post.

Well, they're not humans, they're demons. They're probably getting spiritual energy from the symbolic sacrifice of a life-generating substance, or something.

Devils are fundamentally irredeemable because it is their fundamental nature to subvert God's will. They do not have the free will of human beings.

Angels have no free will either yet plenty of them still managed to fall.

I guess it can be bypassed by proper culinary preparation
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduction_(cooking)

I really wish that would update

I'm pro demonic redemption, but there has to be at least a little bit of will on the demon's part

Or the paladin's god gave him a holy dicking spell

True, forgot about that...
Thanks for the reminder, I guess I'll lurk more.
This thread is interesting so far...

Get that Nasrud-Islamic theology out of here user.

To fall itself implies that they have changed in such a way as to no longer understand subverting God's will as a bad thing. What sends a human soul to Hell isn't sinning, it's allowing the sin to change you into the kind of person who doesn't think that what you did was a bad thing. Lust does not damn you, but believing that choosing to lust is not Bad does. If they were to be redeemed then they wouldn't be damned, they would have done penance and purification, however long, in Purgatory. To be sent to Hell is to be irredeemable.

My setting has a Neutral Demon who can be considered redeemed, but he's really not.

Joh'Nozar the Demonlord and Rentoh of the First Light, a demon and angel respectively, have been eternal enemies for....well, ever.

During one battle, instead of killing each other, as they had many times before as death for a demon/angel just respawns them in their home realm, they decided to take a break from this whole business and declared a cease fire.

Basically, Joh'Nozar can't be any more evil than your average mortal, and Rentoh can't be any more good. And in one thousand years(not too long for them), they will be at war again.

So Joh'Nozar decided if he can't do evil, he must act Neutral for the time being. And the most neutral thing he could think of was an average joe dirt farmer.

So he ascended to the mortal plane, picked a prime bit of farm real-estate, and got to farming. He currently goes by Dread-Farmer John, grower of the best Damned taters on this side of Hell. He also has a hellhound around to keep the badgers out.

He doesn't have any ulterior motive doing this or anything, he's just doing some honest work to keep busy until the thousand year truce is over.

this is amazing

One of players redeemed a succubus during a campaign. They fell in love afterwards and he knocked her up, possible because of the magic being used giving her a basically human body
Her soul was still that of a demon's and was slowly tearing away at her body. She died during childbirth
Their daughter is really cute

Not that that's probably a sustainable system either.
Would you timeshare a succubutt with four other guys so she can live off it without draining any of you to death or illness?
Assume her demonic nature is enough to prevent STIs from causing trouble, and the others can keep to a contract.

I usually don't do immortal beings, so devils and demons are the great-great-great-etc descendants of the originals, and have fuck all to do with good or evil as a collective race. Hell is like Fantasy Syria; the only reason anyone lives in that shithole anymore is because it's THEIR shithole. Anyone with sense left ages ago.

That leads into my favorite theory: devils didn't fall, so much as were pushed. God and Lucifer are basically the same guy playing both sides of the table. I don't get to indulge it much because then I have to get out my atheist fedora and things get weird.

>Abrahamic Gods

I like the idea that its something like an addiction. Demons and angels are essentially the same thing, separately only by their actions and morality. The lure of evil is strong and roots deep into them, even when deep down they know that it is wrong, but the pleasure they experience is overwhelming. A spiritual heroin if you will. Demons even suffer a type of withdrawal when turning to the other side, intense pain, vomiting magic and odd behavior. There are even monasteries set up as rehabs where they slowly learn to control it. Spiritual AA's where they meet on the astral plane and support the fallen. Its not an easy process but those who fully come out of it are often especially strong through their desire to atone for their evil.

The players haven't been to see him yet, and don't even know he's a demon.

The only thing they know is Farmer John has an unusually large patch of farm land, and he doesn't pay taxes. Not because he refuses to, but because all the tax collectors are too afraid to tell him he owes taxes. He's more than willing to if they asked, it's not like he needs the money for anything.

I'm still trying to figure out what the angel is doing. I might have him be a fisherman just to have him doing something equally mundane.

Running a winery. They say the port is heavenly.

carpenter obviously, or politician for some irony

My demons are anarchic

Their only unifying trait is they rebel against divine order

Some can be good
Many are bad

"Hell" is basically territory carved up between Warlords and gangs with the exception of Dis, which is considered neutral ground (that everyone schemes and manipulates and tries to control anyway)

Humans can be anything from friends to favored pets to fucking food or building materials

An interesting concept run into the ground by retards who have to force their sexual frustration into everything, just like this thread.

Those were some fun threads.

>It's actually more that demons were unreddemable creatures

Has that ever really been the case?