Pathfinder General /pfg/

>GMT+8
Who are you because you don't sound like Wist and you're not me
Are you KSnHanon?

Spheres Cleric, Soulbolt/Marksman, Druid, Warlord, Ranger.

I am fucking impressed you still remember me.
Yep. I'm running a kingdom builder style game.

app.roll20.net/lfg/listing/77814/ensoulment-of-the-flower-court

Is probably the most interesting thing up right now in a general sense, both very unique and very flexible to all kinds of taste.

Undead also go out of control for the following reasons:
>they're intelligent and pass their save
>you make too many and old ones fall out of control
>you have too many together which causes bodies to start just rising as described in undead uprising

All of these are fucking dangerous. It's like being ok with a guy keeping around a vial of highly infectious anthrax. Sure, if he's worth his salt it'll be fine, but I still would rather him just carry a gun.

We have like a four thread long argument about 'undead shouldn't be evil, they should be neutral' when the game calls out them as forming necromatic hive minds with the purpose of exterminating the living.

Why did she not just use a resurrection spell. You get those the same level as raise undead

PITCH YOUR KSNH GAME
YOU DIDN'T PITCH YOUR KINGDOM BUILDING GAME

>DHB trying to defend his garbage homebrew
Kek I'm laughing

but user, my KSnH game IS my kingdom building game.

So I'm kinda curious, what kinds of homebrew are used in games by y'all?

Only homebrew for that specific game, or has it bled off into other ones?

Has anyone ever used some of your homebrew? Do any of the memegames use homebrew Or than stuff like feat taxes, I mean actual STUFF?

Is any of it good?

Fucking AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA YOU DIDN'T PITCH IT

One thing I've been using for a long time is a variant of ghorans that takes away their light dependancy and ghorus seed. Not in exchange for anything, just getting rid of two problematic abilities.

Playing with necromancy is like playing with Evocation. You're gonna start a lot of fires you didn't plan to if you're shit. You're gonna cause a lotta harm if you want to. Necromancy gets the shit end of the stick because it makes spooky undead and evocation makes explosions and explosions are cool.

Why would you something like that with their best race features?

Aw, what don't you like about swapping skillpoints around every week or so?

Fires generally burn themselves out when they're out of fuel. Undead seek more fuel until they rip holes in reality and cause hyper intelligent undead monstrosities to rule over entire regions.

I mean yeah, fires are bad, but necromancy is a fuck ton more dangerous.

To lower their RP (thus making them acceptable to my GM) and because I want to be able to make multiple day dungeon crawls without needing to prepare potions of restoration.

A bunch of skeletons isn't gonna rip holes in shit except for some people.

Quit scaremongering.

You could have taken sunlight as a spell though. That sort of stuff.

Literally how undead uprisings are described is they'll kill more, make more undead, start causing intelligent undead to rise, and eventually end up creating a necropolis.

As undead are described is that they snowball.

if they were trips I might have accepted that, but user is right. Skeletons rip holes in reality to let the bigboys in

>rip holes in reality
what the fuck kinda necromancy does that aside from intentional shittery like Orcus jerking himself so hard he desecrates an entire cemetery (a sementary, if you will)

Each undead is sort of a gateway to negative planes. When enough of them get together the veil thins and lets the big bois in like what
said

The Daylight spell doesn't count as sunlight for the purposes of abilities. Also, if I can't prep lesser restoration constantly, what makes you think I can prep daylight?

Except generic fuckboys like skeletons don't generate more undead?

They kill things and then they just stay dead.

Even if you get the type of zombie that makes more of itself, it's still only making more of itself.

>Every undead is a gateway to the negative plane

Uh.

What? Even if that were true, it'd mean that every human or whatever is a gate to the positive plane, and you don't have elder positive elementals and shit jumping out of people's asses all over the place.

Sigh. Fine.
let me grab the description from my campaign notes. . .

Its a revision from my old campaign notes, since I want incorporate a more fantastical worldbuilding.

Anyways, its a Kingdom Builder campaign where the players, displaced by a war and end up in a refugee camp, slowly become the leaders of these people, slowly turning this camp into a town and later on, into a city.
They will also forge alliances with neighbors, establish trades and other managerial tasks, interspersed with combat to keep things exciting.

In time, the players should have the power to decide the fate of the war. Either fostering peace, profiting from the conflict or conquer the world.

The story begins during the Royal Banquet at Gransilvia. His majesty, Taernwin Everlight hoped to commemorate this momentous occasion by introducing his daughter, princess Gabriella Everlight as a maiden of legal age. While the nobles wined and dined, a representative of Korlin enters the banquet...

"The emperor sends his regards"

Then the chaos started - Airships from Korlin, hidden within alcoves and cliffs quickly stormed the residential districts as bombs go off in key defensive positions, long range mortars battered the castle walls, while the populace were slaughtered left and right.

While many foreign dignitaries were captured in this lightning fast offensive, the King and Princess of Gransilvia manage to somehow escape in the panic...

In the residential area, 6 unlikely individuals will soon become heroes in this epic tale...

posting superior mercy

What happens is undead create more undead by being around and killing people. As described this can happen because people practice necromancy, curses, or just big bloody battles with mass graves.

It starts with zombies, then skeletons. The skeletons form a sort of undead hive mind and organize into an army with skeletal champions ruling over them. At this point intelligent undead begin popping up, lesser ones like ghouls. Then as there are so many undead the entire area becomes naturally desecrated. Ghosts/wariths/etc. start showing up, a sign the wall is thinning. At this point powerful undead start appearing and lead the rest. Finally the entire place becomes naturally unhallowed and forms a necropolis. Necropolis are beacons of negative energy and undead, intelligent and not, flock to them. This also wears the barrier thing and can cause extraplanar corporeal undead to come through.

Necromancy is retardedly dangerous.

>Except generic fuckboys like skeletons don't generate more undead?
They have no stat block ability to do it, but how it's described in undead uprising is undead being around and killing people cause Unquiet Dead where people will start spontaneously raising.

um

excuse me

this is the best mercy

And it certainly was!
Plot is thickening. That is all.

objectively wrong.

Best Evil Necromancer waifu though.

You know what else spontaneously raises? Haunts, ghosts, and even the occasional Bone Tornado.

The point here is that there isn't just one way for undead to begin raising themselves, and assuming that every single skeleton left to do its thing will eventually lead to a Necropolis is, in fact, fear mongering.

Isn't magic retardedly dangerous in general? Just look at what Nex and Geb did by having such a massive pissing contest over who is the boss of this gym. Mana Wastes.

Magic is dangerous. It's a tool. How you use the tool is decided by everyone else. If you want to raise dead to just let them run wild and keep making more storms, then yeah, it's fucking evil. But if they're doing it for more like, being able to control these undead uprisings or even defend cities with a last ditch wave of undead, then it falls into more neutral or even good territory. Just like how where you throw the fireball decides how much of a dick you are.

...

>Best Evil Necromancer waifu though.

I beg to differ

>Evil
lol k whatevs

>im
>fucking
>plying

Yeah, well that thing also describes sunlight as fending them off or causing them to become confused, which, surprise surprise, isn't a thing with Skeletons! They don't give a rat's ass about sunlight!

In fact, a big ol' fucking mob of skeletons is probably MORE dangerous during the day, since they can see you at ranges further than their 60ft darkvision!

>Wiz
not even best girl in the show

fug

...

It isn't that every skeleton WILL cause a necropolis, it's that's every skeleton has the potential to cause one.

Geb and Nex caused the manawastes by being one step below deities in terms of magical power. Raising the dead is a comparatively unimpressive task.

A necromancer is choosing to use a tool that, unlike most fireballs, has the potential of spiraling out of control and summoning malevolent superbeings into he world. At worst the fireball is going to burn down a city. A necropolis is much worse than that.

The end game here is very different. The potential dangers represented by undead is much larger.

You defended the city with a latch ditch wave of undead? Sure that was a good thing. You were killed and three of your skeletons were smashed to bits. They're now wandering around and have the potential to spiral out of control. Why did you use undead as your last ditch effort and not any number of other less potentially region threatening spells?

Also it isn't so much necromancers, it's the 'undead shouldn't be evil' argument I find fucking retarded.

>it was a leaf
when, my brothers?

Actually it says zombies are the ones that get confused in sunlight, but they don't either. One would assume that the undead become confused in sunlight and loose cohesion because it literally says they do in the book. It's not written into their stat block but it's written into this description of undead behavior.

I think you're missing a step here.

How precisely does "Raise the dead" lead into an undead city or necropolis? Lay it out for me, because your conviction says I'm missing something, or that you're misinformed, and I'd rather clear which one it is.

Oh look it's you
Sentient undead potentially not evil makes tons of sense because unlike fiends, who are literally made of Evil, Undead are just the opposite end of life ergo there's nothing stopping a Demilich from not being Evil.

>protagonist allows it
IT ISN'T FAIR

What races are you guys looking to make and or use in the starfinder setting?

And stuff like Wish can completely make both of these things irrelevant

Ban the Universal school, it's too dangerous! It LITERALLY tears open holes in reality!

Not even just zombies.

>When dawn breaks, the dead seek safety in their graves or other hidden places. Any caught in the daylight flail about confused, as per the condition until they are destroyed or manage to stagger into shelter. At the GM’s discretion, non-humanoid corpses may rise as undead on subsequent nights.

>ANY

Except the most common process of becoming a demilich being an evil one. But he could have since stopped being evil as well. A lot changes over hundreds of years.

s3 when!?

somebody please respond

So how Unquiet Dead are described is that necromancy being practiced will cause corpses to just start rising. So the raised dead being around may or may not cause other undead to spontaneously begin raising.

From here it's described as happening in progressively worse states, with more and more powerful undead coming into existence until finally they form a necropolis.

Tell me that when undead don't form hiveminds with the express purpose of exterminating all life.

The whole 'a necromancer should be able to make his ghoul LG' is even more retarded. Undead in every place they are described are irredeemably evil. A good ghoul should be nearly as rare as a good fiend. They don't have the evil subtype but all of their instincts (like ghouls being naturally enormously cruel and hungering for living flesh) shows them as being evil.

So yes, good and neutral undead may be more common than good and neutral fiends. They would still be uncommon to the point of being next to non-existent.

>Except the most common process of becoming a demilich being an evil one. But he could have since stopped being evil as well. A lot changes over hundreds of years.
That's not really relevant considering Demilichs only form out of, and I quote, "indifference". The lich has to sit there doing nothing for hundreds of years.

Dread Wraith Sovereigns, Vampire Lords, Lichs, etc. are all often single entities and can easily do whatever the fuck they so please, because they're intelligent and not made of evil.

>there's nothing stopping a Demilich from not being Evil.
Except the fact becoming a lich requires human sacrifice and a 'deeply personal journey requiring many atrocities'.

The idea is more that undead left to their own devises will continue on a path towards this unless stopped.

Wiz. Such a sweet lady. Good girl, wiz.

>Except the fact becoming a lich requires human sacrifice and a 'deeply personal journey requiring many atrocities'.
Yes, who cares?

Just because you had to be evil to get where you are doesn't mean you have to STAY evil.

Liches live a LONG fucking time man.

The fact that there's an entire type of Lich that comes about when they just stop caring for too long, it's not unreasonable that they just stop being evil.

I concede the point on the Unquiet Dead thing. I hadn't been aware of that rule.

That said, I have to agree with about undead alignment. I can accept mindless undead being malevolent, but outside of a lack of empathy and the like, there's nothing stopping free-willed undead from doing good things and being good aligned. That's the point of free will and being intelligent in pathfinder; they have no mechanical constraints to that end.

Anyone interested in the PLD storytime? I only ask because Tem's section got little response

>Dread Wraith Sovereigns, Vampire Lords, Lichs, etc. are all often single entities and can easily do whatever the fuck they so please, because they're intelligent and not made of evil.

In every descriuption of these creatures they are described as either requiring to do enormous amounts of evil things to become one (Lich) or having naturally cruel and evil instincts (Vampire and Wraits).

Being intelligent does not make them naturally have tendencies just as ghouls naturally are enormously cruel.

Becoming good for them would mean over coming their nature. As I said, not an impossible task, but not one you'll find each one of them doing. Most have no reason to become good or to try and fight their natural urges.

That's completely irrelevant. They have naturally cruel and evil instincts in the same way an Orc has naturally cruel and evil instincts, not in the way a thanadaemon or succubus does.

I dunno have you gotten consent to post logs this time

I'm also not saying it is impossible for intelligent undead to become non-evil. Nothing about negative energy is inherently evil. However in essentially every description of undead they have enormously evil tendencies and instincts.

Becoming neutral means overcoming these instincts.

This isn't impossible, but would be extremely uncommon. Especially for naturally occurring undead like the Unquiet Dead.

That's entirely a matter of degree. There is a reason that Smite Evil works on Undead, Dragons, and Demons and not Orcs. The degree to which they naturally tend towards evil is obviously orders of magnitude apart. Unless you're saying that Dragons and Orcs should be considered the same amount of evil.

There are literal mechanics towards this not being true. Undead even give off more evil from detect evil than aligned creatures.

It's a matter of degree.

You're mixing up your memes. No PLD logs were ever posted without consent

>There is a reason that Smite Evil works on Undead, Dragons, and Demons and not Orcs
Except it does work on Orcs, and the only reason it works on Undead and Dragons is because Paizo made Undead and Chromatic Dragons Always Evil instead of Usually Evil like they should be. The mechanics and canon is literally what is up for debate right now, everyone knows waht the bestiary says.

Reminder that if you fall for the "muh fullcasters" strawman that you're shit.

So to continue on this.

How common should good/neutral chromatic dragons be? From what we see they essentially don't exist they're so uncommon. The number of instances in published paizo material can be counted on two hands.

The same for undead.

I'm not even sure what head canon you are working on. Because in Paizo's canon the degree to which Orcs and Undead are described as evil differs hugely, the same with Dragons.

Unless you're talking about in something that isn't golarion your argument doesn't really have a leg to stand on because literally every description of their behavior the difference is completely obvious.

No but they were browbeaten out of players.

The rumor is that Vult pressured Wist into releasing hers and she was ashamed of all the urine play, which apparently there was even more of in parts 2 and 3.

So... Lysander confirmed to be the only PLD player without an exhibitionism fetish?

The canon description is literally what people are talking about. The bestiary calls them Always Evil, people disagree with that - and so do you.

And, to turn the page on this real quick, how many Metallic dragons should we expect to be Evil?

His scene hasn't happened yet. They worked out the details but the play hasn't occurred.

Well Paizo can't decide if Eugenics Dragon is evil.

Eris best girl, Megumin best worst girl

Never, apparently.

The bestiary calls them always evil, and has a few examples of ones that aren't (there is one in a PFS module that is a neutral ghoul).

The canon descriptions of them, the mechanics, and the books however all agree that dragons and undead are on a different level of evil compared to orcs.

Extremely few. One of the instances I can think of that one might have turned evil is Terendelev, who was accused of being corrupted during the World Wound conflict.

...

see Stop being a witchhunter fag

Well Smite Evil I think is specifically tuned towards undead, outsiders, and dragons because those are the more common big evil threats.

Like how Paladins with the Oath against Undeath only get that against undead. It doesn't mean 'these things are more evil' it just means 'these things are what default paladins more often need smite against.

No, Lysander's scene happened a while ago, he just didn't feel like sharing

Please don't.

Kensai Magus whose DM let a wish for a bag with infinite money go through. What do I get? Weapons, Armor slots, general items. Mostly looking for a second ring slot and wrist slot, but op suggestions are cool.

Undead also naturally produce more evil than mortals, they give off a stronger aura. Undead are in fact more evil than dragons, but less than outsiders, if we're talking about mechanics.

to late, the shiters have already started to meme and witchhunt

Literally this is the only log I care about collecting.

Why must you punish me.

>please don't post logs of a /pfg/ game filled with /pfg/ players playing pathfinder

Well, when they cause that much of a shitstorm whenever they're so much as mentioned...

I'd like to think that's because they're animated by their charisma rather than physical structures, their basic 'self' is closer to the surface, so it's easier to see.

But that's just me.

But Iris. Beautiful, loyal Iris.
And Megumin. Adorable, reasonable, Megumin.
And Yunyun. She has some really nice Yunyuns