MAKE TYRANIDS GREAT AGAIN

I could see Biovores staying the same or even ending up with less speed (and a corresponding buff/cost reduction because of it)

I guess I should have said I could see thropes getting slower, but those are good points.

Trygons I expect to be faster though, since they're giant fucking snake monsters the size of nauts

> a millions of years old super nid with extra galactic crystal swords and psychic powers. and you can never kill it, because its mid just gets absorbed back into the hive mind and they regrow his body.
>one of the few thigns i have genuinely enjoyed in the latest editions
what the fuck is wrong with you?
it literally sounds like something a 10-yo made up

...

>nauts

so orkz have nobz in a naut
do we have jeans in a snek?

>5 or 6 attacks
>wounding with maybe 3 or 4
>only getting 2-3 past armor

Wow so OP.

>badwrongfun
You are coming here for great writing, some of us want fun fluff to go with our dudes.
Infinity has it's own general.
>nidfags complained for years about warriors, demanding they be made T5 because muh ID
>never demanded ID to be removed from the game because it benefitted them to keep it
>warriors are still t4, w3
>ID is gone
>still bitching

>53377402
>7 attacks, wounding on 2s on anything T4 or less, 3s on T5-7, with an AP-4 weapon
No, you are just a faggot.
You probably went on with your faggotry to get the thread bumped thinking hurr ill trol that will work! But you are still a faggot.

>it literally sounds like something a 10-yo made up

You mean like the entirety of 40k?

>i really like his fluff, one of the few thigns i have genuinely enjoyed in the latest editions. a millions of years old super nid with extra galactic crystal swords and psychic powers. and you can never kill it, because its mid just gets absorbed back into the hive mind and they regrow his body.

He's not millions of years old and it doesn't have a body that gets regrown. It's a different swarmlord every time, the hive mind just dumps resources into an extra high performance Tyrant and gives it access to memories and intelligence they don't normally have. It's not a Tyranid Pheonix lord. It remembers its past lives because the hive mind remembers its past lives and selectively restores useful information into the new body.

Tyrant Guards.

I always fielded Swarmy because I liked his fluff and now I have a reason to show off the custom base I bought for him.

>never demanded ID to be removed from the game because it benefitted them to keep it
Wtf where do nids get to exploit ID?

>fexes and such wont tho
You're right, fexes get 9" judging by Swarmy and the fact that they confirmed all Tyranid MCs are faster in the live Q&A

>trygons, tyrannofex
Those are probably getting faster. Trygons especially should since they're giant versions of Raveners.

>guard, thropes, biovores
They'll either stay at 6" or drop lower

Will be interesting if Thropes get the Fly keyword.

>>nidfags complained for years about warriors, demanding they be made T5 because muh ID
Or maybe because they were, you know, originally toughness 5

A bunch of what you said contradicts the shit fluff that crud wrote for him. But even then it still doesn't make sense with how nids work.

That said, I've given up on caring about the lore in 8th. I'll just write my own and use the swarmlord crunch with a proxy model that looks better, probably run him with talons instead of boneswords.

ALL Tyranid MCs are getting faster.

>I agree except the 12 wounds mean he will be shot to pieces.
More than twice as many as before.

>Can he no longer be targeted when he goes BELOW 11 wounds?
No it only counts the amount in the profile

But, Tyrant Guard exist, he has a 5++ save at all times, he can cast Catalyst on himself for stacking 5+++, and he'll probably be in combat by turn 2 at the latest.

>A bunch of what you said contradicts the shit fluff that crud wrote for him. But even then it still doesn't make sense with how nids work.

That's the benefit of when the fluff contradicts itself, like it does in this case. You can just pick what you like and abandon the stupid shit under the assumption that in the next edition they'll paste over the bad writing. Old one eye used to be special but became a strain, same with every other Tyranid special character, and they have mentioned the swarmlord as a strain of tyrant in places. The tyranid pheonix lord crap totally contradicts every other aspect of Tyranid fluff. Like, the swarmy is NOT important enough for that kind of treatment. It's a tyrant, tyrants are not that big or special to the swarm. They do not represent that big of an investment of resources. One hive ship has hundreds of them and there are larger and more powerful creatures that lead the swarm when needed.

Am I the only one hoping for more adaptation and options in how you can build your army?

I loved that old rumor that said what biomorphs you gave your warlord Hive Tyrant gave you different options. Like wings making Gargoyles a troops choice

>More than twice as many as before.

Yeah but lascanons average 3.5 times as many wounds as they did before. He dies faster under the new rules, especally with how much weaker psychic powers are probably about to become.

But it's all down to points and we have no idea how many points a 10+ wound IC is going to be in a system where they're giant targets.

>But, Tyrant Guard exist, he has a 5++ save at all times, he can cast Catalyst on himself for stacking 5+++, and he'll probably be in combat by turn 2 at the latest.

We don't actually know the rules for Tyrant Guard, and without Catalyst it takes 9.2 marine lascanon shots to kill him. That's a pretty easy number to scrounge up over two turns in any gunline. Whether or not he's worth it comes down to his cost and whether or not he can do something before going down.

>the swarmy is NOT important enough for that kind of treatment.
actually the codex seems to imply it's a treatment all tyrants get, who knows maybe all tyranids with a brain power big enough to be somewhat self conscious get it.

>We don't actually know the rules for Tyrant Guard
You can't honestly believe that they wont be Guarding Tyrants in some capacity.

Assuming that people still make the same kind of counterlists they used to. You can't bring a bunch of lascannons to a split list; being able to drop a handful of MCs means shit if hormagaunts are swamping your lines and that trygon with genestealer brood is now in your backline. This is ignoring how your example depends on there being no other more dangerous/priority targets for those lascannons in the same list as the swarmlord.

As someone who's been playing nids since 4th edition, I can't think of any occasions where I could count on ID

You forget he also has a 5+ invul out of combat now. While not the end all be all of things, it does help.

I can't wait to see what they do with the Venomthrope. -2 BS to models shooting at units covered by the cloud would be great.

>We don't actually know the rules for Tyrant Guard
We do, though, they mentioned in the live Q&A that a Tyrant standing within x" just pushes all its Wounds off on them automatically.

If we take the SW:A kill team descriptors to be canon then Warriors get to respawn.

Did they mention how many wounds they have?

>We don't actually know the rules for Tyrant Guard,

We know all retinue units make character impossible to target if near them.

> without Catalyst it takes 9.2 marine lascanon shots to kill him

I don't really know your math, but each lascannon hits does

1/3*2/3*2*3.5= 1.555 wounds

Which means you need 7.7 hits or 11.5 shots, or 17,3 if you cast cathalist.

Also Hive Commander means the he either gets into combat round 1 or he gives very huge speed boost to your army until himself get into combat.

Nah

>Sure, but they're probably a huge points investment (again) that will slow the unit down (again) in order to protect it from shooting.

Swarmy + tyrant guard was like 500 points before and that was not 130 points better than a knight. It all comes down to if GW has figured out how much things should actually cost.

>Assuming that people still make the same kind of counterlists they used to. You can't bring a bunch of lascannons to a split list; being able to drop a handful of MCs means shit if hormagaunts are swamping your lines and that trygon with genestealer brood is now in your backline. This is ignoring how your example depends on there being no other more dangerous/priority targets for those lascannons in the same list as the swarmlord.

A regular landraider has 4 lascanons now. A raider and a tac squad kills a swarmy in two turns.

>You forget he also has a 5+ invul out of combat now. While not the end all be all of things, it does help.

That was in my calculation. 9.2 lascanons averages 32.2 wounds if you don't need any other rolls.

>That was in my calculation. 9.2 lascanons averages 32.2 wounds if you don't need any other rolls.
What the fuck math are you doing??

9 Lascannons
6 hits
4 Wounds
2.6 failed invuln saves
avg 9.3 damage

????

Sure, but people were talking about it's toughness, as a 10+ wound IC. We know how tough knights are now, and they were like 120 points more than the swarmy in 7th. Outside of a massive cost restructuring (which I am very much hoping for) He isn't remotely as tough as a knight given these rules. He's probably not going to be a particularly tough unit for his cost, he'll have to make it up by being effective in other ways.

does str 9 wound t6 on a 3+ in the new edition?

Yes, you only Wound on a 2+ if the Strength is double or more than the Toughness.

Yes you need double toughness to wound on a 2+ now

>A regular landraider has 4 lascanons now. A raider and a tac squad kills a swarmy in two turns.
Yes, assuming absolutely clear los and the nid player lets it sit there in the open.
Your mathhammer isn't actually working out here.

Knights are PL 23. the Swarmlord is PL 15

What do the previews say his power level is?

Welp, that's probably where some of my strange math came in.

It's still not much different, though. It's really not going to be hard to scrounge up a significant number of wounds against ol' swarmy and with his old point cost he's still an enormous cost investment if you give him guard.

>Knights are PL 23. the Swarmlord is PL 15

A knight is more than twice as tough with t8, a better save, and 23 wounds but only costs about 50% more with PL.

>Yes, assuming absolutely clear los and the nid player lets it sit there in the open.
Your mathhammer isn't actually working out here.

It's working fine, you were all creaming yourselves over how tough a unit that is LESS tough than before became. Like, yeah, he has more wounds, and all the things shooting at him do 3 or more times as much damage while the wound table made it so that things like heavy bolters are an order of magnitude more effective against him.

DAILY REMINDER
NEVER TRUST A NIGGER ON Veeky Forums TO CORRECTLY RECOUNT THE FLUFF OF 40K WITHOUT A SCREENCAP OF THE SOURCE.

90% OF Veeky Forums ARE LITERAL RETARDS. THEIR ABILITY TO EXTRACT AND INTERPRET INFORMATION FROM THE BOOKS IS LITERAL NIGGER TIER.

post your source or stfu

>It's working fine, you were all creaming yourselves over how tough a unit that is LESS tough than before became.
No. Before it took 9 Lascannons to kill him. Now it takes 12, AND he is guaranteed access to Catalyst, and he can charge into combat turn 1.

>A knight is more than twice as tough with t8, a better save, and 23 wounds but only costs about 50% more with PL.
It's almost as if the Swarmlord is also a psyker and a commander as well as being tough and killy.

I think you should stop talking out of your ass.

>a better save
A Knight has a 3+ and a 5++ against shooting.
The Swarmlord it's the same but he has also a 4++ in close combat.

>a unit that is LESS tough than before

He gained a 5++ against shooting, He is now wounded on a 3+ by S8, S9, S10 and S11 weapons.

>things like heavy bolters are an order of magnitude more effective against him

Heavy bolters wounded him on a 5+ before and wound him on a 5+ now. Only S4 now wound him on a 5+ instead of a 6+, but guess what, they wound him twice as often but he has more than twice the wounds. So it's still more durable. Before you needed 45 Heavy bolters hit to kill him. Now you need 72.

In the end, what the fuck are you smoking?

This. Swarmlord is a huge force multiplier.

Honestly I just hope regular Hive Tyrants are as good at all the non-combat roles.

Hive Commander alone is so good that the Swarmlord would probably be worth his points just using it two or three times without ever reaching combat.

It literally says it right there. It dies, the swarm remembers its memories, and when a battle is kinda tough it just pops out a new body and stuffs in some old memories.

It doesn't say it has a soul or any sort of continuous existence you retard. It says it dies and new ones get old memories stuffed into them. Which, fun fact, happens to pretty much every tyranid with the capacity for memory when the swarm deems knowledge is useful enough to build or load into something. It's not sitting there in the warp waiting to get reborn, it hasn't expressed any sort of actual personality that gets maintained, its existence isn't built into any sort of item or other thing, and when the battle is over they just fucking eat it and turn it back into biomass.

It's just like every other tyranid except they load some old memories into it. Something they do for pretty much every fucking node. It's not agent smith.

This is what worries me. I don't want to be forced to run this fanfiction tier asshole just for his ability. I better be able to do the same thing with Hive Tyrants.

>fanfiction tier
Nice meme.

>Cruddace's fluff
>anything more than bad fanfic quality
Sometimes user, the memes are memes for a good reason.

I got a bunch of old full metal tyranid models. Might bust em out and buy some lictors. Love lictors

managers got a briefing today

preorders for 8th is the 3rd of june, 2 weeks preorder. release on 17th

rulebook is 60$ (yes, it still costs money) and its the same as in the new starter box that replaces dark vengeance.

the 5 faction books are like most guessed allready
spacemarines
imperial forces
chaos
2 xenos books.

>A Knight has a 3+ and a 5++ against shooting.
The Swarmlord it's the same but he has also a 4++ in close combat.

Neato, its still a toughness higher 1 wound short of double, and only 50% more in cost. Are you arguing its NOT tougher per point? Or is this just aspergers at work? What the fuck are you saying here?

>He gained a 5++ against shooting, He is now wounded on a 3+ by S8, S9, S10 and S11 weapons.

And a 5+ by almost every infantry based shooting weapon in the game while guns that previously would have given him his full save (like heavy bolters, of which the previously mentioned land raider has two) significantly reduce that save.

It's as if the game changed and suddenly guns he was immune too rip him a new one while guns he was vulnerable too remain almost unchanged!

>Heavy bolters wounded him on a 5+ before and wound him on a 5+ now. Only S4 now wound him on a 5+ instead of a 6+, but guess what, they wound him twice as often but he has more than twice the wounds. So it's still more durable. Before you needed 45 Heavy bolters hit to kill him. Now you need 72.

I am smoking armor modifiers and the change to twin linking. You know what heavy bolters people actually took? Only twin linked ones. Every fucking vehicle was sporting twin linked ones. Every walker. Pretty much everything. Your save is half as good against them and they fire twice as many shots while the new heavy weapon movement rules mean units can position them better while the change to vehicle platforms means they're going to shoot every turn until they die instead of like twice ever.

I am not saying the thing isn't going to be worth it, I am saying it's going to be expensive to keep alive. Which it is.

>Your save is half as good against them
Oh my god why are you so fucking bad at math

>and they fire twice as many shots
But also lose the bonus to hit, and still cost more points than non-twin-linked.

>2 xenos books.
Are xenos clumped together now?

The only thing that 'nids need to make them viable is the same thing all MCs need. A natural invul save equal to their armor save - only the nid MCs would get it, if that wasn't clear.

>He's not millions of years old
> it doesn't have a body that gets regrown.
> It's a different swarmlord every time,

you are a dumb fuck nigger.

some are, there will still be faction specific codex releases later on in the year.

The books aren't necessarily alliances, if that's what you're asking. Alliances require a shared keyword and there is no "Xenos" keyword.

>Are you arguing its NOT tougher per point? Or is this just aspergers at work? What the fuck are you saying here?

I'm saying many of your points are wrong. In this case, a Knight being more thought doesn't change that he has a save equal or worse to the Swarmlord, while you said he has a better save. Ergo, you are wrong.

>It's as if the game changed and suddenly guns he was immune too rip him a new one while guns he was vulnerable too remain almost unchanged!

Bolters hits to kill him before: 90
Bolter hits to kill him now: 108

Heavy Bolter hits to kill him before: 45
Heavy Bolter hits to kill him now: 72

Lascannon hits to kill him before: 6
Lascannon hits to kill him now: 7.7

He's more durable against literally everything.

>I am smoking armor modifiers

See the math over that account for armor modifiers. Still better.

>the change to twin linking.

Are you so much retarded that you believe that twin linked guns that doubled their shots are going to cost like before?

You are continuing to say wrong things, and move the goalpost to say things that are still wrong.

Your point was that the Swarmlord is less durable than before. Which is objectively and mathematically false.

Your new point is that new rules will force a change in the meta so that some weapons will be taken much more. Which is not a point as we don't know point costs, and without point costs trying to image the prevalence of twin linked heavy bolters in people army lists is extremely stupid.

Stop embarassing yourself.

most of Veeky Forums is retarded

not the other user

But this argument will pointlessly boil down to establishing whether a clone that gets an innested consciousness is the same as a mind regrowing its body and wondering whether the "creature as old as the tyranid race" is this continued consciousness for the purpose of outhinking the enemy or the whole 4 armed giant tyrant bodyshape.

Firstly, what's even the difference between a consciousness that regrows a body and a body getting a consciousness? how can we confirm the most likely hypothesis in the case of the second?

speaking of swarmlord fluff, I seem to remember a bit where he spawns with a different body (generally a taller body against the elves) and some double spawning battling on numerous worlds at the same time, but I'm not sure about the source of the second.

Most of everywhere is retarded.

no it does not.
the entire swarmlord entry uses a definite article to describe him.

and to drive the point home even harder

Yes the swarmlord fluff is terrible and impossible given the rest of tyranid fluff, this isn't news

Well fuck me, the king of any kingdom has always been the same person since the dawn of monarchy then.

Didn't quite catch that user, what kind of article is it?

Obviously the Hive Mind has adapted to this strange galaxy of larger-than-life heroes or it's a side effect of the Octarian War and all those damn Orks thinking 'didn't I fight that one before? Must be the same one!'

This is my new canon.

Its the same consciousness in a different body, so whether it is the same organism is a matter of samantics. And he is millions of years old.

Or maaaaybe it's a single role in the swarm, have you thought about that carcan-kun? or does the fact that this idea doesn't irate as much that single user that hates everything cruddace with a blind passion present in every thread about the swarmlord enough to turn you off on it?

>that single user that hates everything cruddace with a blind passion
You mean... every Tyranid player who was around before cruddace ruined them?

>matter of samantics.

it didn't stop this retardation

No, I mean (you)

Most people either ignore, accept or have compromises about what they have found

You continously refuse to accept even those and go as far as warping the actual truth to fit your vision of doom and gloom about everything that even sorrounds the work plagued by the hand of cruddace

Literally what

I've posted like three times in this thread and only about mathhammer.

Are you confusing the other user with carnac? Carnac is the shitposter who posts Cruds face all the time

>it didn't stop this retardation
why is it retarded? it makes sense to me.
swarm lord is a single mind within the tyranid swarm, and he is very old, and his mind gets slurpied up into a new body everytime his old body is killed.

seems exactly like what the writer was trying for in the writings. the idea that their are multiple swarmlords doesnt make sense from the feel of the writings, and it doesnt make sense from the actual arguments either.

is correct

>he's strong and you can't kill him also he has four swords
>fun fluff
Jesus fucking christ.

Even Marneus fucking Calgar has more creative and interesting fluff than this.

When in doubt, blame the Orks.

The new twin weapons are not double the effect of the old weapons as twin weapons lose the ability to reroll for the advantage of double shots. They are about as good as they were.

No, I mean like only the worst parts of 40k.
Most 40k stuff is at least on a 14 y-o's level.

This. The Swarmlord was the worst thing to happen in Tyranid fluff since... well, most of the other garbage that happened in their fluff starting with the abominably shit 5th edition Codex.

No, they ARE better. You're correct that they're not twice as good - the overall average is still close to the same - but they've got a much higher maximum.

They didn't go into enough detail. They said Warriors are going to be really survivable at T4 with 3 wounds, but from what I can tell that's just going to be slightly better than what they currently are, and I don't play nids but I do hear them complain about Warriors. It's all going to hinge on their points cost.

but the 5th ed codex had the octarius war. that was pretty fun. also spawned one of the best nids artworks ever

The swarm lord is a tactical genius and the best character in 40k fluff. The avatar of khaine challenged him to a duel and he just got a load to carnifexes to shoot him. He is fucking amazing. He gives no quarter and expects none in return. (Swarmgasm intensifies)

Different user here, I'ma be completely honest, I too think that the swarmolrd fluff is absolute BS.

HOWEVER. I love fielding my swarmlord model (I usually proxy it as my own hive tyrant) because he looks freakin' awesome. Goddamn tyranid general grievous.

Also, because pic related is what really got me into tyranids as my first army. I was just flipping through the codex, hadn't really read any fluff, didn't know anything about tyranids than "muh sphees bugz", and then boom, I look at that picture and I go "FUCK THAT LOOKS COOL I WANNA BUILD/PAINT/PLAY THAT". When I read the fluff I was like "Meeeeh....." but then I looked back at pic related and said "screw it, tyranids > chaoscuck space muhrines"