Isn't the whole point of this setting...

Isn't the whole point of this setting, that humanity stopped research and innovation because it goes against their faith and faith is the law?

So where is all this new shit in 40k always coming from?

No, the whole point of the setting is that it's grimdark as fuck. Lack of research and innovation is just a part of it.

Step aside, grimfag. WH40k is nobledark now.

>Where is all this new shit in 40k always coming from?

The High Lords of Terra AKA GW investors.

No, that wasn't the point. The point was the universe had fucked mankind over so hard it was actually pretty funny. I sat down and explained everything to a buddy of mine who wasn't in the know and his response was simply to laugh. Innovation never stopped per see, the idea that they are all pants on head retarded is a meme, it just wasn't a priority and because it was dangerous it was forbidden to those who didn't have the chops for it. If you weren't an archmagos your job was to fix shit, find shit, and follow the blueprints for shit that was understood. Only archmagos had the qualifications and go ahead to actually innovate, and Caul went and innovated us up Space marines 2.0

>So where is all this new shit in 40k always coming from?

New stuff is usually just retconned in as having been there all along.
The newest new stuff is the work of is the work of Belisarius Cawl, an ancient tech priest from a more enlightened age. Now his Master Guilliman has returned and asked him to open up his workshop where he's been fiddling with things for the ten thousand years.

>So where is all this new shit in 40k always coming from?
the past
these dudes took 10k to make using technology from 30k mostly

Higher ranked mechanicus magi can still invent shit

Here's a question. We know cawl spent 10k years developing the primaris. We also know that every cannon attempt to improve or alter Geneseed prior to this new release went horribly wrong from crazy mutations and inviable monsters to guys the universe just plain hated. My question Is how many fuck ups do you think there were during the ten thousand years it took him to get this right?

Corax actually succeeded in making superior space marines, there's precedent,

the whole point of the setting is to be as macho as possible, to have people in giant suits of armor waving chainsaws and shooting giant guns at other giant ass scary creatures

grimdark, or even anything resembling a plot, may or may not be taken seriously, but its mostly just an excuse to have more of your favorite sci-fi tropes cranked up to 11 and blowing stuff up

The whole point of the setting is to prepare humanity for the coming of the Emperor

30 years of grimdark gets old eventually, especially when you want shekels

>previous attempts were Cawl's failures
>tfw we find out that all of Fabius' 'super-marines' were stolen from Cawl
>tfw the level of REEEEE-ing there would be from Chaosfags

>Step aside, grimfag. WH40k is nobledark now.
Fucking finally, too much grimdark was because of people being fucking retards. Seriously, fuck whoever was writing fluff for Skitarii.

What's wrong with Skitarii?

No the Imperium had ground down in 10,000 years of ignorance and bureaucracy. The Faith was a symptom not a cause. The changes are because shit has gone to hell and a 10,000 year old demi-god now walks among them.

>So where is all this new shit in 40k always coming from?

GW has to churn out new minis for nerds to buy to keep making money. We are just getting a few more things that are 'new' new, instead of being "here all along I just forgot to mention them in the past 40 years" new.

Call it a mismatch between setting and tabletop if you have to. Its hardly the first time.

profit > lore

Not that guy, but as a skitarii player I can think of at least one piece of lore from our book that's absolutely retarded, the lore for the ironstriders.

All hail Sheev.

Innovation is more along the lines of "look! I have discovered a tech from the Dark Age of Technology. " Most of the time. Other times they scavenge xeno tech and proclaim it was human to begin with.

Yeah, gimpsuit striders are weird.

Naw, using human bits to make things run is standard. It's the engine and what happened to their creator that's ridiculous.

>but was sitting on them this whole time because Guilliman never gave the order to deploy them?
Which is insane because the 21st founding happened and there's been a number of reigemes that would have 100% released them.

Would make more sense, but still goes against a central part of the setting's ethos.

Reminder that the men of iron are a thing and skynet terminators basically happened

Yeah I know, it was part of my explanation to my buddy. With sufficient context everything they do actually makes sense, but then you stop laughing at the characters and you start laughing at the context.

God dammit I didn't make that connection
I'm stunned

I'm sure a few marks made their way into the Alpha Legion, and perhaps a few to the Deathwatch. Primaris dudes will probably find their way to the Deathwatch soon enough as it is.

Mk VII was the newest standard issue mark starting with the Siege of Terra. Mk VIII was probably greenlit during the Scouring, but the post-Heresy era basically had the Astartes winding down. Upgrading Astartes gear became not only costly but pointless in the new era of galactic peacekeeping. This is why MK VIII never really proliferated, and why only the Inquisition funds its production in significant but limited quantities.

MK IX should be considered a prototype armor - the very best of the very best. This is why Guilliman wears it, and why its so disproportionate in size. MK X is effectively the mass production version of the MK IX, and will probably be standardized by the end of M42.

>nobledark
This is the best kind of setting

And the reason why Cawl held it back is exactly because he was there from the Great Crusade era onwards; so he knows how godawful the bureaucracy became. Best case scenario, the High Lords approve it only to distribute the new equipment to their pet chapters ala Minotaurs except by the dozens; and the equipment eventually falls into the hands of the traitors. Worst case scenario, Cawl gets burned alive by bureaucrats.

Look at the fractured 10k year history of the Imperium, with major conflicts sparked by political power struggles. Cawl was right to hoard the technology, because it would have been horribly misused. His works are not for the joy of mortal men, but for his eternal love for the Omnissiah and His chosen.

The point of the setting is to make GW money.

>MK IX should be considered a prototype armor
>This is why Guilliman wears it

Is this official?

>MK X is effectively the mass production version of the MK IX

Don't prototypes have provisional designations, which get canonized once they become production models. The MkVI was known as a MkV when it was being tested, but the suit we got to know as MkV got into production before it, so it was bumped up to MkVI for the production model.

>will probably be standardized by the end of M42.

Dunno. That would require redesigning it to suit regular Marines. I think they might remain Primaris only suits, since it's not like Primaris can make use of MkI-VIII suits due to their size.

>>MK IX should be considered a prototype armor
>>This is why Guilliman wears it
>Is this official?

Not at all

>So where is all this new shit in 40k always coming from?
You see GW's gaping, cavernous asshole? That's where thye get the ideas that ignore the fluff

I for once welcome our new, heroic period for 40k. There's only so much you can do with a setting before you have to write "and then all was poop".

It wasn't that new knowledge was evil - it was that keeping an open mind was like holding up a beacon for Chaos. Innovation, whether it be in tech or tactica, was not in and of itself bad.

This whole revival of Guilliman is just making me hate Smurfs more, I mean they were bad before now they are just entering gary stu territory

I would not be surprised if everything related to the Primaris is old and has merely been collecting dust because Guilliman entrusted Cawl with the responsibility and he was either too concerned with his other projects and/or didn't trust anyone but Guilliman enough to give to go ahead.

People have to remember that the Mechanicus keeps a lot of the best shit to itself for one reason or another.

It's debatable how much control the High Lords have over the Mechanicus, it's sometimes referred to as being a separate entity from the rest of the Imperium.

The Mechanicus has a stranglehold on the technology of the Imperium, push them too far and they'll freak out and suddenly the entire war machine of the Imperium grinds to a halt.

Other than possibly the Mechanicus having a stranglehold on technology, GW has always played fast and loose with how they go about either creating new things, innovating, or studying xenos technology.

Just because Space Marines got some new shit doesn't mean anything. The Mechanicus still have the aforementioned stranglehold and Cawl's actions could give birth to a schism. The majority of humanity is also still ignorant to how technology works outside of rote memorization.

They pulled an Archmagos from the time of the Emperor out their butts. Can you really not see how bullshit that is?

The Temepstus Scions' codex was even worse. Completely retarded grim dark imperium losses while still finding a way to suck the Tau's dick in an Imperium faction supplement.

>isn't the whole point of this setting to be the way it was before it changed

The whole point of change is change.

Now if you're asking what's the point of the change, the answer is money.

It's not unfeasible since there is no cap on how long a Magos can live, it's not even that much worse than suddenly finding an old STC, having access to vehicles or equipment from the Great Crusade, or acting like the newest model kit always existed.

Yes it's somewhat jarring as far as the lore goes, but it's the price that needs to be paid to keep the money flowing in.

Seriously, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot more they can do with the current SM range that isn't just making a plastic version of FW models as long as the Mechanicus still having a stranglehold on technology is a thing in the lore. I mean even FW for the most part seems to either be producing Chapter exclusive stuff (Because of the HH), older power armor marks, variations on the Rhino chassis, or taking the Rhino or Land Raider chassis and sticking new guns on it.

Part of the thing with the Primaris Marines seems to be an attempt to not rock the boat too bad by not suddenly invalidating people's armies or making them feel like they have to buy the newest thing and by basically making every new model released so far look like it's just new power armor. The Inceptors are probably the most radical looking of what has been shown so far and that is mostly because they have landing gear on their feet. Their jump packs don't look all that different from some of the models FW has produced and even the Blood Angels Chaplain GW put out.

>invent

Tau may have stolen plasma technology from the Imperium.

>WH40k is nobledark now.
You mean Noblebright

Hardly

GW doesn't care about making an interesting setting. There's easy money in hawking DA BEST OF DA BEST OF DA BEST OF DA BEST TIMES INFINITY.

It outright states Ad Mech have long lost the ability to truly innovate. You've completely missed the point.

That's the Law for the common man.
An Arch-Magos can do whatever the fuck he wants.

>So where is all this new shit in 40k always coming from?
the need to generate sales of plastic minis

>girlyman
>noble, not grim
ok

>Isn't the whole point of this setting, that humanity stopped research and innovation because it goes against their faith and faith is the law?
They never stopped, it just has to be handled really fucking carefully because daemons and shit.

A completely sane Archmagos from the Heresy whom nobody had ever even heard of before despite the fact that they apparently had the knowledge, manufacturing base, political support and logistical support to make huge innovations in the fields of gene-manipulation, armour manufacturing and weaponry technology AND have all these things lying around in sufficient numbers to roll out in one go.

>It's not unfeasible since there is no cap on how long a Magos can live
The Magi who have access to the very best technology in the Imperium can live for a very long time, but once they get into the thousands they are always completely, hopelessly insane in one way or another. Its one of the reasons the Mechanicum is the way it is - the people at the bottom don't have the knowledge to make a difference, the people in the middle don't have the power and the people at the top are bonkers.

It's okay, he's super forgetful!

Also, pre-order announcement is up on the Warhammer community site. Lulz at the marines with service studs

Been away from 40k for a while. Can you please explain the engine and creator parts?

Don't remember any bits on the creator, but according to the fluff, the ironstrider engine is a perfect perpetual motion machine.

Okay, sure sci-fi. Nope, this is 40k! Since it would be tech heresy to try and change it to better purposes, they just have the things run on giant treadmills to power shit.

That's right, the Mechanicus developed perpetual motion and put it in a hamster wheel

You'd think there'd be a periodic check by other archmagos, even if it was just poking their head through the door and checking for EXTRA DOUBLE HERESY.

I think Chaosfags are used to getting shat on by now. Just like everyone who isn't the loyalist spehss mahreens.

IIRC after executing the creator for Heresy the Mechanicus was afraid to turn the Ironstriders off in case they couldn't start them up again. The solution was to turn their stables into Treadmills and make a bit of free energy on the side.

Well at least they made profit out of a moderately uncomfortable situation.

>Chaosfags getting shat on
>when the setting's background has literally been rewritten to help them win on multiple occasions
Pick one.

Chaosfags have a worse victim complex then bronies.

>Lulz at the marines with service studs

Why? Primaris Marines have been equally created from new recruits and existing marines.

It's possible, the plasma cannon has the flask on the bottom.

Both the HH and FW have introduced a bunch of characters who were apparently big shots and yet have never been heard of before. It's also feasible that Cawl didn't become important until the Heresy or later. Bjorn is a big name in 40k, but he didn't really make an impact until the Scouring.

Cawl has also had around 10,000 years to get everything stockpiled.

All old tech priests being crazy would have to be repeated at least a few time. If it's just something that appears in a box once it can easily be hand waved.

Cawl is easily the single greatest human ever behind the Emperor to have pulled this off.

Without anyone ever noticing he built, trained and armed a freaking whole new army capable of saving the entire Imperium and literally no-one ever noticed it at all.

Cawl is the fucking Emperor is the only way I'll buy any of this.

>Optimus Prime marines become the new normal marines
>previous marines get rehashed as Squats

Or maybe no one seriously bothered to look or he had some kind of document from Guilliman.

It's kind of funny the lore can say that all kinds of shit gets lost under the weight of Imperial bureaucracy, yet expect something on Mars of all places and under the oversight of a high ranking magos to be easily sniffed out.

Yeah cause the stuff that was lost was not literally an ongoing process creating an entire galaxy-saving force of Super-super Marines by one Magos.

The Emperor ordering info on Two Legions to be expunged involved the Emperor and the entire fucking Imperium, this is one random Archmagos keeping secret the most poweerful army in Imperium history from everyone.

Cawl ain't even fucking dictator of Mars so he somehow kept how he was training these men and all the resources for their armour, guns and ships secret from every other archmagos too.

This is a totally different fucking level. And if he had a letter from Guilliman that's fine but then people would Still fucking know about it.

Give me lore.

Give me reasons for Cawl's action. Give me the reaction of other marines to what he had done. Give me a civil war, give me genetic racism, give me Chapters disapproval, give me the taint of corruption on those design, give me depth.

And I'll eat your new super mega marines ultra deluxe.

Don't give me a half baked explanation of 'that faggot was like hidden and he did it with that Primarch lelelel'.

Honestly if Cawl had done this at the ass end of the galaxy I could believe it, but somehow doing this on mars/terra?

There was probably an entire branch of the inquisition and an assassin temple dedicated to keeping this secret, full time

Most of Mars is an uninhabited shit hole.
All Cawl would need to do is carve out a domicile and slowly work on shit over thousands of years if he was intent on keeping it a secret.

The mechanicus kept developing new technology all this time but they NEVER share it sans a few rare cases, they are the only forgeworld that can make the original baneblades and they have the blueprints which they could share so that other forgeworlds don't produce downgraded versions but they won't for a reason or the other, they also have super weapons that only use in dire times like that thing that shoots black holes that they used against the "unnamed threath" that came from beyond the known galaxy.

I agree, both stole their plasma stuff from the Eldar.

Turns out entropy is a bad business model and people want new stuff.

Tau plasma weapons are, IIRC, canonically lower yield.

Eldar are the only ones to perfect it

You're the one who has missed the point, mate.

The whole point of the Imperium is indeed that its retarded governance and ideals have led to 10,000 years of utter stagnation and abject suffering for mankind. Innovation has never been genuinely bad in 40K, the AdMech are just a retarded cargo cult.

Even Bobby G agrees. Seriously nigga this guy is spelling it out for the audience that the Imperium is dum dum retarded and is mostly this way due to its own fuckups.

Great! I knew Veeky Forums would finally like the tau!

honestly the skitarii have the closest thing to the new plasma gun in the Plasma Cavalier, which makes sense if the Primarius Marines are basically admech ourfitted marines.

Nobody freaked out when the skitarii came out with tons of new weapons, the admech have been making new weapons for ages. The only thing that is _actually_ heresy for mars is making AI. They dont give two fucks about standard commissar / Inquisition level heresy shit.

Fuck they worship that necron fuck in mars as much as they worship the emperor

Good. The grimdark is old and boring now. It's time to look forward to a period of denial and even more infantile escapism.

Is this the new lore now? R E T C O N

Lore has always been the same, nobody but mars could create new stuff or it would've been heretical, mars did create new stuff but they always kept it super secret almost never sharing with anyone else, why do you think they have hyper advanced spaceships while the imperial navy has to manually load each round.

The grimdarkness of the mechanicum resides in their corrupted faith in the void dragon that made them go "mad".

Cawl is the archmagos of mars. He's at the very top of the food chain. Even lower-level magos dominae are allowed to tinker and refine stcs, Cawl can do whatever the fuck he wants to. It's always been the case with the lore, the only thing added recently was that the same guy has been archmagos of mars for the entire long war, and that he's actually been getting shit done in that time.

>will probably be standardized by the end of M42.
>Dunno. That would require redesigning it to suit regular Marines. I think they might remain Primaris only suits, since it's not like Primaris can make use of MkI-VIII suits due to their size.

You're forgetting that GW said in their Q&A that normal Marines could be upgraded to Primaris Marines. More than likely Primaris will be standardised by the end of M42, both in the fluff and on tabletop/collections.

And he was left alone by Goge Vandire AND Sebastian Thor, and he in turn let the 21st Founding happen, despite it being in his wheelhouse.

This, although having someone pointing it out in setting is missing the whole point and tone of the setting.

“The fact that the Space Marines were lauded as heroes within Games Workshop always amused me, because they’re brutal, but they’re also completely self-deceiving. The whole idea of the Emperor is that you don’t know whether he’s alive or dead. The whole Imperium might be running on superstition. There’s no guarantee that the Emperor is anything other than a corpse with a residual mental ability to direct spacecraft.

“It’s got some parallels with religious beliefs and principles, and I think a lot of that got missed and overwritten.” -Rick Priestley

Well, he's AN archmagos of Mars. There's a few thousand at least, and he's not the Fabricator General or we'd have heard about it. Makes you wonder what would happen if they all went to war at once, given your average one from the Heresy is as tough as a Nurgle Lord and packing a S6 AP3 pistol and Power Axe at LEAST. They each have thousands of troops minimum and often an Ordinatus Minoris or Titan Legion/Knight House friend, and that's just the stuff they have on the tabletop.

It would be like a massive superhero crossover teamup, except with more grimdark, but with equal quantities of massively varied and deadly bullshit.

Maybe he used the 21st founding as a test to see if what he had done so far would work at the time.

Honestly, Nobledark must be the best setting for WH40k. Give people a slim bit of hope and chaos/death/eternal damnation becomes all the more horrible for kids who can't deal with permanent meaningless death.