/WMG/ Warmachine and Hordes General

Truly there is no in-between. Well, whatever gives you some entertainment factor I suppose.

Mk2 Tough was a stupid fucking mechanic. I once lost a game because a Bane Thrall passed 7 back to back tough checks and I couldn't get it to stop contesting a zone to give me the scenario win. Nek minnit Gaspy2 feating his shit all over my caster.

And sometimes you roll snake eyes on a series of damage rolls and accomplish much the same thing. It's just your emotions frustrating you.

No, because I can mitigate the odds on my rolls by applying buffs or modifying the situation. Unless you had access to Grievous Wounds sometimes Tough would just fuck you.

In that scenario I just described I did everything possible to guarantee that win. I shot the Bane once to KD him, then had Molik move over to kill him. That's 6 auto hit, auto damage attacks.

Why is it dying?

The odds of that are like 1/729. You just got unlucky. It happens.

That's the point. Stupid situations occured because Tough was a stupid mechanic allowing them to happen.

Same thing as missing on double ones. People just got salty.

Alot of "bad luck scenarios" have really low odds of happening. Yes, you could roll alot of snake eyes in a row, that might happen.

The thing is when you have lots and lots of potential "bad luck scenarios" the cumulative odds of one happening jumps up the longer the game goes on. Adding the old Tough mechanics in as they did was a bad idea, especially when players could literally put down armies of practically nothing but tough (not just Trolls mind you).

The new Tough mechanics are much smarter from a game design perspective. You can still pass something stupid like 5, 8, or 10 tough checks you cumulatively make in a row, that hasn't changed. But it doesn't have the same game warping effects it did before. It's a more reliable speed bump rather than a potential brick wall which makes it less random and less frustrating for players.

>But it doesn't have the same game warping effects it did before.

Why? Steady is everywhere.

In a vacuum purely from design perspective, Tough isn't as mechanically broken as it was before.

Putting Steady on tough models like Cetrati was a completely separate act of retardation by PP. But I don't blame that on the mechanics of Tough.

It was never mechanically broken. Just because you had an NPE with it doesn't mean it's broken. Just because it relies on die rolls, like most things in WM, doesn't mean it's broken. You're making an assertion without evidence.

Mechanics that largely exist in a vacuum, are difficult to influence (entropic force and and grievous wounds not being widespread or easy to access for every faction), and lead to potential NPEs are broken mechanics. Adjusting them to remove the NPEs is the smart thing to do from a design perspective.

Don't get that confused with unbalanced, because broken and unbalanced mechanics are two separate things though they aren't mutually exclusive.

Continuing on you introduce other mechanics to allow for direct interplay, like every +2 STR over ARM the target gets -1 to the tough roll or something. You allow a player to make decisions and mitigate it.

But setting it up so the game is hurrhurrrhurr lets roll 4+/5+ to block infinite damage is a badly done mechanic. GW is over that way if you truly miss that sort of game mechanic.

The counterplay to tough is to use multiple lighter attacks rather than one heavy one. A troll has a 1/3 chance to survive being hit by a pow 20 hit, if you hit him with 2 pow 13s it'll be better.

Stealth was no better and that's been in the game since forever.

Stealth has a variety of counter buffs. Eyeless sight, True Sight, Flare, to name a few, or you can simply move a unit closer to completely negate the ability. You can't do this with Tough.

>The counterplay to tough is to use multiple lighter attacks rather than one heavy one. A troll has a 1/3 chance to survive being hit by a pow 20 hit, if you hit him with 2 pow 13s it'll be better.

Which works right up until somebody chains a bunch of tough rolls together, leading to an NPE. And that's the problem with it, there's no real counter to that it just is. If somebody rolls 7 Tough rolls in a row, there's not much you can do about it it just happens.

I work in the casino industry, I work around chance and probability every day.

Here's the thing with averages, they exist over a massive, and I mean massive, amount of data. You don't roll dice and get 1 through to 6 in any order in an even spread.

How chance actually works is you get big streaks of shit. This is how card counting works at a basic level, it helps you find the big streak of 10s and picture cards coming up in a shoe of cards so you can bet hard on the streak of 10s.

Dice results work just like that as well. You get streaks of results, and the fewer dice you use the more likely your results are to get influenced by this. When you roll a series of 1d6 you are likely at some point to get a series of 5+ results in a row, which leads to what everyone calls a negetive play experience because you'll get moments where this one faggot model just won't fucking die and it's important.

I remember reading an article on a math teacher who would give extra credit for any student who in their own time rolled a dice 10,000 times and recorded the results in order. He could tell which students cheated and which didn't purely on the basis that the ones that cheated arranged the results with a fairly even spread, they lacked big streaks of the same number in a row. For him that was a dead give away.

That's really the reason tough can feel like such fuckery sometimes.

Gobber Warcaster, when?

As with any new edition of any game some players have left. Vocal idiots have decided that since people they know have left then everyone must be leaving. There's no sales evidence to support this, WM was in the same place on 2016 sales charts as it has been for years.

Does anyone have the Mk1 books? I'm looking for the fluff in Prime and Primal but the links in the text file are broken.

I bought a unit of Bloodrunners and you can't stop me fielding them!

Gobbers can't become warcasters.

Not with that attitude they can't.

Word of god cucl

Well, technically I can. It will take at least 6 attacks though.

But let's talk Bloodrunners, as I'm painting mine right now. I plan on trying them with:

1) Hexeris2 for Ashen Veil, which is a massive issue for living models to get rid of.
2) Mordikaar, because screw your support staff.
3) Rasheth for the exact same reason.
4) Morghoul2 just to see if that Elite Cadre actually does something useful.

Now if only we had a theme that gave them ambush.

I'm the epic ADR memester from the last couple of threads, and got them mainly for use as a Specialist. They do their job brilliantly, the problem being that sometimes your opponent's list doesn't comply, so being able to bring them in after lists are chosen is ideal. They're going in Zaadesh2's specialists because he's far worse at dealing with infantry than Mordikaar. As far as ADR casters go they're probably best with Naaresh because Blur means that even sprays have a hard time getting rid of them at DEF17. Rasheth is pretty funny though.

>Carnivore
>PGMT Leadership
>Gang
>Back arc

Pseudo-MAT14 with precision lel.

Im a noob, can anyone point me to a good battlereport using mk3 starter set? or any general info/tactics on how to use units from this box effectively?

2 players starting set

Oh right, Specialists. That's where such a unit shines. I'd really like to know what the ADR will be like in two months, but PP have been keeping silent here.

Every faction has its 2 newest casters so we know that Zaadesh2 and Morghoul3 will be on there, likely meaning that Skorne will have a good ADR seasons purely because of Zaadesh2 and the removal of D&C1 allowing you to potentially play him every round. We can assume Mordikaar and Naaresh won't be repeated. I think PP try to put weaker casters on there because in theory specialists are strong, so I'd put my money on our next ADR being Zaadesh2, Morghoul3, Hexeris2, Zaal2.

Which starter set? Warmachine two player, Hordes two player, one of the single faction battlebox, or one of the all-in-one army boxes?

>Every faction has its 2 newest casters
Is that still going to be the case though? As far as we know we have no info on that. But if Zaadesh stays in there I'll consider it. If one of the Hexy's and a beast caster make it in I'll be happy.

Here's an idea. Grab the faggots from loremachine or wherever the forums community went, redditors and sign a well argued petition to get soles fired.

My personal dream ADR would be Zaadesh2, Rasheth, Makeda3, Xerxis1.

I'd say Makeda2, Morghoul2, Zaadesh2 and Hexeris2. But that's sure as hell not happening.

Warmachine mk3 Cryx vs Cygnar, im more intrested in Cygnar tho, so if you have Battlebox it would do too

>There's no sales evidence to support this

Hi there. I have been playing off and on since Mk2 release. I dropped back in on these generals to see what the fuck was going on. Spent plenty of money into models - more than I'd like and more than I'd ever use. I haven't had a game of Warma in about 2 years and I'm going to be moving soon, so rather than move about $2000-3000 worth of assembled models, I figured I would try and at least sell a few armies.

Lol boy was I wrong.

Check Ebay "Completed Auctions" - and things that have actually sold. Look at comparables. There are A LOT of army lots up right now, and A LOT of good army lots, fully painted to decent standard, that have sold barely 50% of retail. I figured I would get 50-65%, it's looking closer to about 35%, which is kind of sad considering what's gone into them. I see GW stuff going for 80%.

People can cry apples and oranges, but it is very indicative of the health of a system. When Age of Sigmar dropped and the Fantasy players revolted, you had fire sale level prices on all Fantasy stuff. I picked up huge armies for close to 25-30% retail. Age of Sigmar did piss off some old dudes who will never be coming back, but with the last revamp it's attracted some new people to the game. Point being, Sigmar / Fantasy stuff is back at holding its value.

I'm actually worried if I should try to cash my Warmachine stuff out now or just wait until the company (hopefully) fixes the game. Demand is going to change with the health of the game. Just my 2 cents but any quick look at the number of firesale price armies on Ebay across all factions should tell you about how healthy things are, which is to say current players are leaving in droves. New people looking to pick up armies should check there if they're interested in that sort of thing.

>I see GW stuff going for 80%.
Because GW fans are Rabid and Grown in test tubes.

GW could sell minis made of pure cianide, and literal piles of dogshit, and people would take it and demand more. And talk about how excited they are to buy them.

Sigmar DESTROYED a core faction because GW didn't feel like supporting them. That's how shitty GW is. GWs fans are just RETARDED.

Gws stuff is also used for other game types, so there is that.

50% retail is pretty standard dude and being painted just lowers the value even more. Nobody wants to deal with striping your shitty paint job

>Every faction has its 2 newest casters
This is 100% not true. It is the case right now, but what ends up there in the future is up to Hungerford

Gobber Warlock 'jackmarshal on the otherhand is the right kind of impossible to actually happen.

>b-but mah stuff is p-pro p-p-painted

Great idea, we can even put it on change.org

>Hasn't played in 2 years
Yeah you're an authority on the matter

And why the fuck would you paint up Khador to look like Cygnar? No shit it'll never sell.

>bretocuck still mad
go snuggle with sobtards and a 20gauge

Lol, MM has their entire PP stock on clearance.

BUT THE GAME IS TOTALLY DOING FINE

>See post
>Go to buy shit on clearance
>Sold out in 5 minutes

Damnit >

That's just how dead the game is apparently.

Yep, so dead everything I want for Ret sold out between opening the page and trying to add shit to my cart.

Sigh.

Just sold out of Marauders while I was pondering starting up Khador, too.

>just bought stuff online
FUCK

>One store is having a sale

The game is totes dead guys!

yeah rip

What a shame
It was a good game
What a rotten way to die

I think interest is waning currently until Lock & Load. We're not excited about the command books, because we've had the Journeyman v2 casters for a very long time, and the other 2-3 models per book (Retribution excluded) just haven't been that compelling. Combine this with a lack of fiction and story progression, and these books are just plain boring. Old players have no reason to purchase them, so there's less to talk about.

Theme books will get many people interested again, myself included. I am expecting a decent amount of fluff in each, and very curious to see just how much each theme book expands upon their subfaction. I have a suspicion that we're going to see a new round of battle engines, along with a warcaster, 1-2 solos, and an attachment or two for existing units. As for new units, I have no idea. Maybe we'll see 1-2 per faction? We know there aren't parallel releases anymore, but I just don't see how else the theme books could work.

Trencher CID just got announced on primecast.

>Stealth has a variety of counter buffs. Eyeless sight, True Sight, Flare, to name a few,

Yeah, so Grievous wounds etc. Did you just play a setup without a way to get around tough and then insist it should be removed from the game?

New primecast today!? Well thanks a fucking lot, podcast app, way to keep me updated!

Express team: Trollkin trenchers with big-ass sniper rifles.
Trencher longgunners: Tough, "better accuracy", "very different CA", CRA
Mechanics: Wrenches and carbines (same as commandos)
Patrol Dog: Trench Buddy rule: gets dug in if B2 with dug in. Trencher WA. Removes stealth in range, gives unit Dodge.
Character solo of some sort
Some solo gives unit Feign Death
New model type: Block House "bunker with guns". Structure. Shoots and makes more trenchers. Terrain with stats that can be destroyed.
Siege2: deployable turret that he can redeploy

Almost all trenchers have tough. Cycle starts late June. Theme force gives Rise to all units.

Black fleet theme later

>Express team: Trollkin trenchers with big-ass sniper rifles.
Here's hoping Trollbloods can steal these

So once every like 2 months they'll look at one warrior caste in one faction? It's been 4 months since the Skorne errata, what excuses do they have left now for the glacial pace of their balance updates?

Man, I knew someone would find a way to get mad about this post but I was hoping it would take more than two replies.

I think the game is in Purgatory as opposed to dead. It's dying but I don't think its abandoned or forgotten. People want it to live.
>New model type: Block House "bunker with guns". Structure. Shoots and makes more trenchers. Terrain with stats that can be destroyed.
Wow. Thats a pretty big change.

Both the recursion element and the structure element.

The anger was already there, you just provided an outlet.

I haven't decided how I feel about it yet. I'm not in love with terrain for points but I'm willing to see how the rules shake out.

Honestly, I'm with it if it at least makes the board more interesting.

I'm so sick of Goddam trees and Hills.

That's fair. Balancing them could be tricky but that's what CID is for. Curious if every faction will get one or if they'll be like beast packs and be more limited. Not sure how factions like Ret and Legion would make use of them.

>Not sure how factions like Ret and Legion would make use of them.

For most Warmachine Factions it's easy. Its a Bunker or a Holy Church of somekind.

Legion gets one of their Mega Pots that spawn beasts.

Really if PP introduced this rule earlier, there may have been more hype for the game in at least shaking things up.

And hordes could be beast pits or dugouts. I could see some sort of spine thrower emplacements or stone-guy-spawners for Skorne.

Probably a carbon copy bunker deal for Farrow.

So how is this thing as far as Battle Engines go?

CID made it pretty neat. It spawns more dwarves and is almost a walking fortress.

Ret's mage hunters have dugout safehouses built for infiltration staging all over Western Immoren.

>It spawns more dwarves and is almost a walking fortress.

Now how does the first of those work in practice?

Fucking retarded if you just sit Assram behind it.

It can return D3 grunts to rhulic units within 10"

Also whilst kinda a loss, it was changed to be Girdes as opposed to providing cover. This was to allow the spawned Dworfs to huddle in front of it as opposed to hem having to spawn in the back to take advantage of it.

I meant to say it lost Roadblock and Gained Girded. It sucks somewhat but is much more cohesive design.

MM? I need to buy things for this dead game

How so?

Oh god, all these cheap Ret models
Time to decide if I really need Eyriss3, a second Chimera, and a third Griffon

It (At the moment) provides Cover as it has the Roadblock rule.

Has the Wraith Engine gotten any better with the CID?

And what is considered the least useful or, dare I say, worse Battle Engine in the game?

>Has the Wraith Engine gotten any better with the CID?
Yeah

>And what is considered the least useful or, dare I say, worse Battle Engine in the game?

Whatever belongs to your faction is the worst and is total poo and crap.

Skorne already got a massive update, now it's Cygnars turn to get new stuff

Get more terrain?

>(Mordikaar 1) Void Seer Mordikaar [+29]
- Archidon [10]
- Archidon [10]
- Cyclops Raider [9]
- Despoiler [19]
Extoller Soulward [3]
Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4]
Swamp Gobber Chef [1]
Void Spirit [4]
Void Spirit [4]
Nihilators (max) [15]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
Praetorian Ferox (max) [20]
>Specialists:
Basilisk Krea [7] (Deals with shooting)
Cyclops Shaman [8] - For when a valuable target REALLY needs to die
Extoller Soulward [3] - Cheap high POW gun versus warbeasts
Gremlin Swarm [3] - Soulward replacement vs Warmachine
Gremlin Swarm [3] - Even more Soulward replacement vs Warmachine
Paingiver Beast Handlers (max) [7] - More cheap souls if I have a spare 2 points
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4] - More infantry clear
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4] - Even more infantry clear

>(Zaadesh 2) Lord Tyrant Zaadesh [+28]
- Agonizer [6]
- Aradus Soldier [16]
- Archidon [10]
- Archidon [10]
- Titan Gladiator [15]
- Titan Sentry [15]
Cataphract Cetrati (max) [18]
- Tyrant Vorkesh [6]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (max) [7]
>Specialists
Basilisk Krea [7] - Deals with shooting
Bronzeback Titan [18] - Swaps in for Cetrati when they're a liability
Swamp Gobber Chef [1] - Granularity
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4] - You should know what this model does
Paingiver Bloodrunners [9] - Deals with light infantry spam such as Dawnguard Sentinels

Cont.

I have an upcoming Steamroller I intend to use this pairing at. Here's some examples from my relatively small local meta and what I'd do.

>vs Legion (Fyanna2/Thagrosh)
Zaadesh all the way, and it's pretty obvious to my opponent. The list is fairly set versus Thagrosh already as the Soldier's animus counters his feat. I'm pretty sure he brings out Fyanna with heavy spam due to this, in which case I don't need the Archidons or Vorkesh, so bring in the Krea to deal with his shooting, the Bronzeback as another heavy, and the Chef with my last point.

>vs Khador (Zerkova1/Vlad1)
Mordikaar due to the high volume of infantry in both lists seems a no-brainer. I expect him to bring out Zerkova because Mordikaar can't target her with Essence Blast. I take out an Archidon and the Chef, and bring in a Cyclops Shaman to ignore her cloud walls not to mention the list already has Snipe ready for him, and another Soulward so that I can ignore his clouds even more.

>vs Convergence (Axis/Iron Mother)
Zaadesh because I'm pretty sure he wants to use Axis most rounds and he stomped me last time I played due to huge fuckups on my part. I don't need the Cetrati here in the fucking LEAST or the Agonizer because he's trying to TEP me so hard. So I bring in a Bronzeback just to be another heavy, a Krea to minimize the TEP's effect on my beasts (A 16/18 Archidon won't die to one TEP, and threatens to kill it under feat next turn), then my last 5 points get a bit more awkward. A PGMT could clear a charge lane to a TEP of solos before Sprinting out, and my last point is a Chef.

How does it sound, Veeky Forums? Am I onto something? Am I a raging faggot?

>Eyriss3

For realsies, what are you going to even attach her to? I feel like MHSF are less and less useful this edition, unless you're pairing them with Ossyan, and MHIs are pure ehhhhhhh.

Oh wow, one of Strakhov 2's bodyguards is a girl.

Assault Kommando-chan is my new modelfu.

I had the mention of Spears of Scyrah +E3 under Ghyrrshyld in mind, but after considering it I'm not sure I know how to make adequate use of 4Shade in the first place.

Guess I'll just grab a Healer and Faction tokens.