Warhammer 8th Edition Article of the day thread

>ten rubric marines are just as good as a Leviathan
That's totally reasonable, right?

Who claimed this was the case?

Is this what they are calling the Decimator now?

But that's what I mean, why would you ever buy 2 claws? Just buy 1 and make all your attacks with it, it's not a specialist weapon like before, you still get the +1 attack

Yeah, gonna need an 8e citation for that claim.

>Rubrics: power 8
>Leviathan: power 16
Gee, I wonder.

It seems about right, yes

He's talking about the power level of the Leviathan, 16, which
a) is equal to 2 squads of 5 Rubrics, not 10 as a unit (which would be 14), aka MSU
b) is not meant to be 100% stricto balance, which is what points are for - power level is a rough approximation of what feels "right" for casual games

But it'd look cooler.
Otherwise, why would you ever buy twin drills during the previous edition? With the different stats you'd be a fool to reduce your response options there just the same.

forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Leviathan-Dreadnought-with-Siege-Claw-and-Siege-Drill

Yeah but there's almost certainly a correlation between power level and base point cost, given both are balancing mechanisms.

10 rubrics are power rating 14 according to that.

Oh shit actually, this is actually somewhat confirmation of increasing unit size being cheaper than buying a new squad.

The Leviathan is a forgeworld model. Being broken and/or undercosted is part of the course.

How quickly does this wreck a knight in combat?

>2+ to hit
>2+ to wound
>-4 AP
>4 wounds per hit

>current year
>thinking FW=OP

I wonder how much points will it cost. Because it looks better than IK at this point, with it's only downside being 10 less Wounds, but with better saves (armor and inv in melee) and Wound regeneration that make up for it.

You are forgetting the sorcerer.

>part of the course

Not really, It's just that the base squad comes with an Aspiring Sorcerer while adding 5 rubrics doesn't give you a second psyker with a power weapon.

Have you seen the newly released Leviathan Datascroll? Now confront it with three units of Primaris Marine Intercessor or two of Thousand sons

That thing is a better Knight for two third of the cost.

Surely it's perfectly balanced.

Oh boy more pay to win garbage

In a q&a they said power level is assuming a kitted out unit not a minimum one.

Okay, or you could confront a regular siege dreadnought with three units of 2w sternguard only with kraken bolts or two units of thousand sons right now. This clearly proves that dreadnoughts are OP.

Knights have far more damage output and 10 more wounds, it's fairly costed.

Depends how you understand "reaper chainsword does automatic 6 dmg per successful attack".

If it's "automatic 6 wounds for merely hitting with a previously D class weapon and fuck all your opponent's toughness and saves", then the knight wrecks. If it is automatic as in "you do not roll for dmg, but still have to pass all the saves". then the knight is fucked by a machine 1/10 it's size. Which would be both dumb and hilarious.

>Compare it to two other units, neither whom are meant for anti-vehicle roles
Try putting it up against dedicated AT of equal power, and it will probably seem more fair. Especially since all of its weaponry outside of the butcher cannon is pretty short ranged.
Cost in terms of power level, which has been explicitly said to not be an accurate measurement, but just meant for quickly throwing together a casual game.

I'm not gonna claim FW is the messiah of game balance, but you anons are being pretty retarded.

You divide the attacks you have between the weapons available to you, this isn't that hard.

Personally I'm just peeved that so many weapons you roll the number of shots and the damage it does then the butcher array just has 8 shots doing 2 damage each that also gets extra damage later from the new morale system.

It likely will do mortal wounds. Leviathans are fucking huge for dreads though, and right now if one gets the charge off vs a knight it can easily kill it in one turn.

Knights have worse saves (and no inv saves in melee), worse to hit rolls and no option for free wounds regeneration. This fucker has better shooting stats, melee stats and a Heavy D3 S9 Ap-5 2dmg to regular, 5dmg to big things gun.

A knight with a chainsword will still likely win, but on average rolls on both sides it's gonna be seriously crippled by a manlet robot.

It obviously means Damage6 on its profile, not 6 mortal wounds, which would be insane.

The robot has to get there and we finally know what a meltagun does. The Knight that we've seen also isn't dedicated melee like the lev would have to be to win.

The chainsword was a D class weapon. You know, "one hit and your land raider is dead" weapon. 6 mortal wounds do not sound very crazy at all.

I can't confirm at the moment, but iirc you no longer get a bonus attack for having two CCW.

You don't normally but this dread specifically does.

There are damage 6 weapons in AoS, its probably 6 normal damage straight up.

What is the difference between a faction keyword and a general keyword?

I get why Chaos and Heretic Astartes are in the top, and why Vehicle is in the bottom, but take "Hellforged" for example, why is that in the general keywords not the faction?

Faction keywords mainly limit what you can take. Regular keywords are more specific to units.

I believe Faction Keywords matter for army composition (i.e. Chaos army if all the units have the Chaos Faction and stuff like that) while normal Keywords do not.

Occam's Razor would say that it's because there are units outside of the CSM faction that will have the hellforged keyword.

Wtf is with this hate on forge world models? I just got back into the game, and Forge World seems to be the only source for models that I actually like the LOOK of even. Fuck regular dreads, Leviathan and Legion specific contemptors are way nicer looking.

>Wtf is with this hate on forge world models?

Poorfags getting mad they can't afford that sweet resin.

Contemptors and Leviathans are utter shit though. Boxnaughts or bust.

>

It's autism.

Forgeworld units have historically been overcosted or underpowered compared to GW rules. It's really only with the advent of the Riptide variants that FW units began to become consistently overpowered.

naw man, Leviathan dreadnought all the way. OG dreads are only cool as like Bjorn or Tankred.

dudes with melta guns are a machine one tenth the size of a tank and tanks die to it fampai :^)

In a detachment you must have all the units with at least a common faction keyword, and you gain faction bonuses for each keyword. For example if all your units have IMPERIUM, ADEPTUS ASTARTES and ULTRAMARINE you gain the Imperium, adeptus astartes, and ultramarine bonuses, but if you want you can mix all the IMPERIUM units.

Common keywords are separated because otherwise you could do a detachment of INFANTRY with orks, Necrons and eldar and all the shit you want.

D weapons should never have existed outside of apocalypse.
This is a glorious change

It really does seem to be forgeworld will do its own thing again this edition, the lack of randomness on the datasheet really demonstrate that. Meaning that yeah, if the base game is actually perfectly balanced as gw are claiming it is, FW stuff is going to be OP as shit again.
It's the T8, 2+ save and 4+/5+ invuln here that's killing me. T8 makes it immune to mass smaller-arms fire (eg, rubrics), 5+ shooting invuln makes melta, railguns, and other big single-shot guns so much less reliable against it, and 4+ melee invuln (WHY does it have this?) make it so even hundreds of points of power klaws won't be able to take it down.
It has no weaknesses, and it's nearly half the points, roughly, of an imperial knight.
Fuck's sake forgeworld. The worst thing is that 90% of FW's stock is space marines and we only have confirmation of space marine stuff getting updated at launch.

>pay to win
>in a tabletop miniatures game

Are you fucking retarded or something?

Forgeworld makes the brains of poorfags short circuit

>Traitor leviathan
>Can bear marks
>can have legion keyword

MHU DIIIIICK HAAAAAAAAAAAAA !

I need one for my WE RIGHT THE FUCK NOW

Forgeworld writers have always had no connection with everything that was made by GW. Which means that FW stuff always was either grossly underpowered or overpowered, with basically nothing balanced. Of course people that use FW stuff always bring the underpowered stuff as example while calling the others poorfags, while people that don't use FW look at how the overpowered stuff is the only that actually get used.

Look at Age of Sigmar for the same situation. 99% of the FW stuff is shit, while things like the Mournghul and that chaos wizard that makes units fly are basically autoinclude in competitive lists.

You forget back when that 400pts stompa was legal.

Also, rapier arrays and quadmortars are blatantly overpowered.

Otherwhise I agree, FW shits out cool and fluffy rules but usually they are underperforming at the very best.

You may have to evenly split your attacks between weapons. That's how it worked in 2nd Edition. But otherwise, yeah, there's no point in doing both arms.

Forgeworld models are beautiful, but they don't have much concept of balance. Either you have 2000 pt flying rhinos that are pretty much unusable, or you have Tetras, which were autoincludes for years after they released, due to just doing pathfinder's job better than pathfinders. Other units like Zagstrukk actively made bad armies competitive, so it was a very common thing until escalation and 7ed for FW units to be blanket banned, because if you let people bring overpriced beautiful garbage, they'll want to bring the broken as shit stuff too.
Only after 7ed really got going and formations became the new competitive power base were FW units regularly allowed as FW don't do formations, because they're always at least 3 editions behind for everyone but space marines, meaning the really broken fw stuff was on even footing with formations (if their rules still worked)

>immune
You mean wounded on a 6+.

>quadmortars
>tfw fielding two full batteries in The Purge detachment alongside 2 wyvern squadrons
>tfw shitting out 30+ ignoring cover small blast templates a turn

The best kind of feel. I really hope they still wreck shit in 8th edition.

so...people get butt hurt when they lose to something in that is part of the game.

That is why people hate forge world?

Can't wait to walk into a game store with my mostly Forge World army and see the reactions I get if this is how people are about it.

Going to get Knight Porphyrion to add to my Sons of Horus army that I have been working on

Because game balance exists and forge world can fuck it up, yeah that is why some people are unhappy

Pretty much immune, equal points of rubrics with flamers in 8" is them at maximum firepower, 35 hits, 6 wounds, 3 unsaved wounds. And rubrics are the closest infantry massed fire gets to being anti tank, guardsmen will be wounding on 6s and have to then deal with the 2+ save, and then it'll just eat them, regaining all the wounds it lost.

Equal points of anything cannot kill this thing without sincere luck, as far as we know. Maybe fusion blaster crisis suits will be a dime a dozen, but meltaguns on space marines are now 27 pts each so I doubt it. If we say 1 marine with a meltagun costs as much as a rubric (when they'll probably be a lot more) it's 10 shots, 6.7 hits, 3.3 wounds, 2.2 unsaved, 9.8 wounds. Still won't even get it down to its lowest damage level, and again, that many meltamarines will cost at least 100pts more than the dread.
It's just too tough for a unit that can shit out mortal wounds and ap -5 wounds 2 at a time to termies, while getting bonus shots, or 5 at a time to anything else.

>Can't wait to walk into a game store with my mostly Forge World army and see the reactions I get if this is how people are about it
That's pretty much it. It got less pronounced recently, but a FW army will still have people apprehensive, because there are still a billion ways to break a FW list in a hurry.

Don't forget the bullshit BS2+/WS2+ that makes the guns utterly murderous even on the move.

>Game balance exists in a get game

That is some intense optimism right there.

Consodering we don't know points costs for most things all we have right now is pointless conjecture. And if it's like current leviathan rules then it's 1 per army unless you have a warsmith/tech-marine.

It's not really pointless though, assuming rubrics stay within 20-30 pts and don't go all the way up to about 50 we have a rough idea of how much 1 powerlevel is. If space marine meltaguns are 27 points each we can generally assume 10pt meltas are going to be pretty damn rare, and only on already expensive things.
If this is the standard for big things (and gw has stated that this was only on the verge of being superheavy) we're going to need fabius bile in every army to deal with this shit.
And 1 per army only helps in big games, it does nothing in 750-1000 pt games.

Do we know what the unit symbols in the corner mean? Presumably the dread's is heavy support; what's the "play button" triangle, something like elites?

Power level assumes the unit in question is kitted out and not at base cost.

The same symbols that have been in the game for a while? Rubrics are troops.

well, I assume troops are stil scoring right? Also Leviathan can't kill much body as the troops can.

Apples and oranges really.

27 pts is for a multi melta, not melta gun.

It can take 2 butcher canon arrays, or 2 ribaudkins. With 2+ to hit it can definitely kill as many dudes as a squad of rubrics. And we really don't know how objectives will work.
So a base leviathan will cost less than a fully kitted out squad of rubrics? This only reinforces my point, it can essentially do whatever the fuck it wants turn 1 and 2 as nothing can realistically stop it in that time.
It's significantly tougher than a knight with much better shooting than a crusader for 70% of the cost. This is indefensible.

Forgive my ignorance; 3rd was the last edition I played.

It's not significantly tougher than a knight. The cc save is good, but 9 less wounds is notable. It also moves 4 inches slower and it's pretty vulnerable to screening units because it doesn't have very many attacks (no stomp). The comparison to rubrics is rough, but troops have always been overcosted.

Hopefully. HOPEFULLY. Things like ruins or objectives will bring infantry back into relevance. A marine tactical squad has been a fucking awful investment since like 2nd Ed. We're they even good in 2nd?

par for the course... dolt

you are a special cancer... i suggest bleach

Its weird the math for warpflamers v. Levi

D6(3.5) hits * 19 models
66.5 hits
1/6 wound
11 wounds
4+ save after rend
5.5 wounds

assuming it took Grav...

4D3
8 shots
assuming moving, 6 hit
5 wound
3 wounds unsaved.

These actually do kind of balance out in the end assuming both are moving to get into melee.

...

How can you even say this with a straight face when the main 40k product line contains shit like the eldar codex?

ITT: All this WAACfags butthurt because someone pointed out they use broken things resorting to call everyone else poor.

>broken
sure thing buddy

Because if FEELS wrong, and all the logic in the world ends where feelings begin.

>contemptors
>shit
Opinion discarded.

Help me here.

I haven't played 40K since early 5th editions. I played Necrons at the time and got soured on the game very quickly because of how the community was reacting to the introduction of flyers. I loved the look of them, they were crucial to my strategy but I was constantly losing sports or getting friendly games refused for bringing them.

Is that kind of attitude still prevalent in the community? 8E seems appealing to me. I started playing Warmahordes and didn't really look back until various life events forced me to take a break from minis games. Mk3 made WMH unattractive (PP is proving to be as retarded as GW's worst moments) so I've been playing small skirmish games with tight rulesets because of how wonderful it is not to have to argue about the intent of a rule - follow what it says and move on. This in my opinion was always 40K's weakness and why I moved on from the game.

However, I feel myself hungering for a game on the scale of 40K and 8E seems like it might be a good point to jump on. As a competitive player am I still going to feel unwelcome in the game? I like painting, I'm friendly when I play, but I have little mental tolerance for the guys who like to drone on about how they hobble themselves because they think a certain unit is unfair. I want to actually play the game.

Damn I'm excited to see this. Hopefully marks will still do stuff in 8th aside from allowing commands to be made through the keyword system. Maybe all legions and loyalist first founding chapters will get their unique termies as well. Chaos will have battle bunny dreads, time for some monty python dumbassery when I play the local Black Templars and Imperial Fist guys

40k got much, much, much worse after fifth. Attitudes about not playing people because of what they were taking got worse as did the ludicrous imbalance and rules fights. The game is barely playable as is and makes PP look like genius's.

No one knows if 8th is a solution to that but it appears that they have recognized the problem and are trying to course correct in the only way possible, by literally scrapping the entire game and restarting.

But because of that no one knows if it'll be good. It looks way better, but it's still gw so it could still be wildly broken. We don't know yet.

6ed and 7ed were commonly considered to be the worst editions due to imbalance. Necron flyers were dirty at the end of 5ed, but we've had to endure worse things, like Decurion. People will still get annoyed in 7ed if you bring WAAC stuff, but at least you know you're WAACing when you're bringing formations, and people in general seem to have mostly gotten used to horrendous imbalance.
Just ask people beforehand if it's okay to bring stuff of certain power, but never expect it. We don't know how balanced the game is going to be in 8ed, so play cautiously competitively. Get to know your meta first, and which players like competitive games and which don't. Khorne bloodbound players will never enjoy competitive games but ynnari players will get annoyed if you complain about their brokenness.
Talk to people. But W848

it's probably just to allow people who've modeled it with two drills to still be WYSIWYG.

>Every 40k teaser 404's in a few hours
>Except the Forge World one

forge world confirmed shit

Grav-flux bombard is absolute fucking beast mode now.

also the plague marines one that's been up since yesterday