Horus Heresy General /hhg/

Rolled 4 (1d26)

Minor Lords of War edition
Magos Family Relations subedition

Scoring Scyllax got in a scrap with Silica Animus, the well endowed eagle of displeasure looked down on overcosted transports and Word Bearers failed at Battlestar tactics. The Malagra interrupted a Conduit Wars skirmish and Coatl begins to rebuild his brother. There was a surprisingly comfy talk about Phall while Primarchs continue to show up every game. A pretty Porphyrion caused failed fear checks but was too big to find cover from the newly buffed Leviathans. All this and more in the previous thread >Thread FAQ
pastebin.com/iUqNrrA8

>Official HH 7th Edition Errata (not updated since January 2016)
forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Horus_Heresy/Horus_Heresy_7th_Edition.pdf

>30k TACTICA & TIPS
What to include in a HH list, how to format it, what makes each legion special (crunch), tactics, Tutorials for Heresy-era minis and more
pastebin.com/Tm2P4QLp

>HH Books, Novels and Rulebooks galore
pastebin.com/k9uvqsub
sys.Veeky Forums.org/derefer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.docdroid.net%2Ffz1OuHK%2Fcrusade-imperialis-army-lists.pdf.html
sys.Veeky Forums.org/derefer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.docdroid.net%2FZTK72gs%2Flegiones-astartes-age-of-darkness-army-list.pdf.html
sys.Veeky Forums.org/derefer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmega.nz%2F%23F!BxI1HSgI!0tKymKh9RZTzGpgIA5EyCg

>/HHG/'s Legion demographics
strawpoll.me/10558764

>/HHG/'s allegiances
www.strawpoll.me/10663447

>Primarch Popularity Poll
strawpoll.me/11458318

>STUFF ANONS ASK FOR
www49.zippyshare.com/v/aYWlVV9f/file.html
www32.zippyshare.com/v/heDZWytT/file.html

First for tabletop standard!

>That would be me, although I don't get the reference. Everyone on board!

Thanks!

The reference is to the Mechanicum Stormbird that user is going to build using a toy whale. He's been talking about it for ages but it looks like it's getting close to happening.

Comfy bread summary. +1 to your Reserves rolls

First for secondment to the third legion, fourth company, fifth section, sixth bunk.

>"First"

A classic example of the most excellent perfection of the Third Legion.

Thread is dead so I'm reposting my old 3k list of Iron Warriors, now 2500 points of infantry.

HQ:
Legion Centurion, volkite charger
- 60 points
Legion Centurion, Legion Vigilator Consul
- 85 points
Elites:
Legion Terminator Squad, 10x Cataphractii Terminators, lightning claw on Sergeant, 2x Terminators w. heavy flamer & single lightning claw, 7x pairs of lightning claws
- 465 points
Apothecarion Detachment, 2x Apothecary
- 90 points
Apothecarion Detachment, 2x Apothecary
- 90 points
Troops:
Legion Tactical Squad, 20x Legionnaires
- 225 points
Legion Tactical Squad, 20x Legionnaires
- 225 points
Legion Tactical Support Squad, 5x plasma gun
- 175 points
Heavy Support:
Iron Havoc Support Squad, 10x Havocs, 10x lascannon
- 460 points
Iron Havoc Support Squad, 5x Havocs, 5x lascannon
- 260 points
Iron Havoc Support Squad, 10x Havocs, 10x missile launcher, augury scanner on Sergeant
- 365 points

Blobs and plasma squad fight infantry, Havocs take care of fliers, tanks, MC and elites, apothecaries boost 10+ power armour units, terminators look cool, wreck stuff in melee and waste points and can quickly be hacked off alongside the Vigilator for a quick 2K list.

You know how there was a minor uproar about the rumor that the Horus vs. Emps fight would get changed relative to old fluff?

I'm not sure I see a problem. The story of The Emperor holding back against Horus until a human soldier/Custodes/terminator gets zapped to death doesn't really make sense. Horus had already killed Sanguinius at that point! I can't imagine the Emperor playing nice at the start of their duel.

Also, Oll Pearson has a chaos blade with him in the novels, so he's likely to do more than just get fried in an instant.

Well, I just ordered the whale, a greenstuff cable making thing and also a Ferratonic Incinerator for the walkways (from Triple Helix, because it was the only place going) so I should be able to start things off. Obviously that's not all the stuff I need, still needs four Stormraven engines and a bridge, plus armour, but I can certainly get started.

Yep. It's old fluff that's likely to be propaganda in the "IRL" of 40K

I'd add Siege Tyrants at the expense of some Iron Havocs. They stick together, and the Siege Tyrants defend the Iron Havocs against deep striking assault units.

Did Imperial Fists have a preferred armor mark and think others shit, or did they use whatever for the job done?

Mk III is the most common between IF

Nah, they might have used more Mark III than the "average" Legion before Mark IV was developed (what with their speciality of boarding assault and assaulting enemy strongpoints) but I don't imagine it'd be more common than MK IV or II, considering the very significant drawbacks MK III have in comparison and the fact that they were largely stationed near Terra and Mars.

I don't know user. I might identify them with mk III because of their use in boarding and defense operations

Officially (going off book 3) they didn't have a strong preference except that they used more Terminator armor than most and were among the first to use Indomitus-pattern Termie armor. I think it's reasonable to assume that if they're into Terminator armor, they'd like Mk III more than the other marks.

But they're not like the Emperor's Children who actively disdained certain marks (Mk III in their case).

They used less MkIII because that's a full-frontal no-nonsense "specialist" armour, and ECs used other tactics like outflanking, and even counted the time they'd spend on shooting point A or cover point C. Other legions used it more because they had more zones mortalis missions, like siegeing garrisons, zones mortalis garrisoning corridors, ship boarding agressive garrisoning or frontal assault garrisoning no man's land

>full-frontal
Funny that they weren't into it.

The IF enjoyed MkIII (due to greater protection), but would happily use anything available. Like the IW, they tended to prefer heavy armor options, but they also weren't too picky, and would use the full range of what they had available.

Few legions had actual 'preferred' marks, since usually it was either due to tactical viability (i.e. EC not using much MkIII since their combat doctrine is centered around speed and flexibility, not slow armor, RG preferring MkVI for it's enhanced stealth and recon capabilities) or due to supply limitations (i.e. a number of the Loyalist legions had limited supplies of MkIV compared to MkII+III because Horus had many of the shipments routed to his own forces, or how in existing canon MkVII was only available for the Legions present at for the Siege of Terra)

EC would rather get you from the sides or from behind than full frontal. And even then, they'd much rather be in a more 'aesthetically clean' suit like MkIV than something as crude as MkIII.

Yeah, there aren't many examples of legions feeling strongly about it.

In Brotherhood of the Storm, Ilya wonders if Yesugei (White Scars Librarian who was the Khan's buddy/vassal before the Emperor arrived at Chogoris) is wearing Mk II out of conservatism. She's a general in the Departamento Munitorum, so presumably she would know that he could've gotten a newer suit of armor and chose not to. He's of the Khan's top men, after all.

It's probably true because it fits the character - part of Yesugei's story is that, as a child, [spoilers]he went up to the mountains where they send presumed psykers and had a vision where representations of the chaos gods asked him to drink a strange brew while the Emperor watched. He took a sip, said it was polite to only take a small amount, and the gods' avatars left disappointed.[/spoilers] Basically, a 'take only what you need' attitude. Mk IV doesn't have wheels or jets so no big difference.

Reminder that power axes will remain the smart choice in 30k (if you don't have access to power fists).

Pigeon girl? I started into these breads a little after her; like I said would tap but faces are for selfie land, (even if they are nice)

As for exercise thats the spirit! Work on the aim so you can average a better than 50% hit ratio and your a Veletaris Choom/Axeguy without the armour! Oh and chop wood. Lots of it. FORESTS of it to get that swing just perfect

I trust my fists to be more accurate than the lasgun however.

post Big War Machines, Titans, ships, superheavy Tanks. preferably Heresy Era. Anything you have please.

>tfw no Horus Heresy Battlefleet game

I'm thinking about going pre-heresy/great crusade theme with my bases. Which one would be the most interesting?

> IG/human
> eldar
> orks (ullanor)
> tyranids (murder megarachnids)

I have a small-ish Firestorm Armada fleet that's mostly finished. Black with grey drybrush for the wonderful instant tabletop quality, though the ships need to be touched up and have details added.

It isn't 30/40K though, so I'm guessing that won't cut it?

Yet the likes of Phalanx Wardens are in MkIV.

MkIII was a specialist armour not really designed to be standard issue.

Would it be inappropriate for shunned-within-Legion Terran veterans to wear Mk 4s? Because I have Mk 3 for all those painting nightmarish ridges and rivets.

Which legion, and what do you mean by the second part of your post?

Astartes are also specialists not really designed to be standard issue.

Not necessarily, though it's a bit odd for shunned guys to have the latest tech

...

I'm suck at painting and highlighting 40~50 Mk 3 legs who are (my headcanon-wise) RG Terran-born vets seems nightmare.

My bad for posting half-asleep

>Astartes are also specialists not really designed to be standard issue

Not what he's talking about. MK III is MK II with additional armour bolted on for increased protection, with a LOT of flaws in return. I'm not sure but it makes sense for MK III suits to be suits of MK II produced on a Forge World and modified on an as-needed basis by tech-marines and attached mechanicum personnel, considering.

Also, Astartes are too designed for standard use? It wasn't until after the Heresy their numbers dropped too low to fight massed battles by themselves. And with a lot of Primarchs dead/gone traitor with their Legions, their ability to rebuild their numbers took a huge hit as well.

>Astartes are also specialists not really designed to be standard issue.

Fucking retards...

>"MkIII was a specialist armour for the Space Marines not really designed to be standard issue Space Marine armour."

Do I really have to fucking spell this out for your autistic ass? You think if Delta operatives have a standard issue flak jacket and then a heavier one for special operations, you're gonna say neither of them are standard issue, because Deltas are not regular troopers? Learn to fucking context.

What are you guys working on?
Assembled three Haeteroi myself, now that the paragon blade/spear issue is finally clarified. Tried to make them look totally at easy to convey just how good they are in battle. Not sure if I really succeeded, but I quite like the blade resting on the right guy's shoulder.

You could always follow my tabletop-level way of painting black power armour:

>Prime Black
>Drybrush Dawnstone
>Wash Nuln Oil
>Clean up with Imperial Primer/Abbadon Black if you really need to
>Apply damage and weathering etc to taste

They look great, I might have to steal that idea

If the rest of the legion gets Mk VI then I can see them giving the Terrans Mk IV. Especially if it's post-Isstvan V, when there were few legionnaires left and they could basically get whatever they wanted from the legions' stores.

Where are those power sabres from, user? They give an EC look. Positively regal.
Also, what was the issue with Paragon blades and Hetairoi?

>what was the issue with Paragon blades and Hetairoi?

Seeing the amount of typos and no other unit, not even the shield captain, having the option, people assumed "paragon blade" meant "paragon spear". Then FW said "no, it's totes blade".

They're found in the Sanguinary Guard kit. Sadly only one such blade per kit, though there is alot of other neat stuff in there.
As for the paragon weaponry issue, Haeteroi have the option to take paragon blades, but many people, me included, assumed that entry to mean paragon *spears*, what with the general quality of Inferno and all. Now that's been cleared up by an email from FW and it actually is paragon blades.

You're right, user, but watch out you're going to burst a vein there.
The bulk of Compliance were mortal armies, and in fact displays of power coupled with diplomacy could win worlds over. Some of them didn't even have space capabilities but still had desirable resources or, lacking that, had people. You know, like Caliban, Chemos, Olympia, Chogoris, Fenris, Nostramo, Baal, Medusa, Barbarus, Prospero, Chtonia, Colchis and Nocturne.
I'm omitting Nuceria because fuck worthless Nuceria
My interpretation is that, while mortals did the bulk of the compliance, the astartes legions were the leading edge of it, and when requested would solve whatever conflicts mortals alone weren't able to.

Post pics when it arrives.

Makes sense that you'd use Astartes on the offensive then use pre-posthumans to consolidate the gains. Kind of how you'd use tanks and infantry in the real world.

I don't think there's any hope of asking players to restrict Mk III to specific squads. Lots of us are starting with BoP, and 30 power armored dudes is enough for a lot of armies.

Big tonks

Has the Mastodon appeared in a spread like this yet?

Just read Fallen Angels.

and holy shit, why are the Dark Angels so fucking terrible? How can you even lose control of your own fucking homeworld.

Slightly less big, but more numerous tanks

>don't talk to me or my son ever again
Also
>putting a CCW for a warlord

That doesn't make the Legionnaires less standard, especially in the early years of the Crusade. Astartes weren't anything close to as rare as they'd become in later millenia, and Legions could use tactics more reminiscent of Imperial Army formations if they had to without crippling themselves.

The Legions were a wholly different organisation than the Imperial Army and predated it, if memory serves, so Army regiments outnumbering them doesn't make a bolter+power armour marine any less standard issue than a lasgun. Arguably more so, considering how wildly individual worlds supplied their regiments (while the Legions were largely uniform, even more so internally).

Man, years ago, when it first got released as a plastic kit, I remember the Baneblade being hyped as a big tank in the heresy - they said there were "whole brigades of baneblades" back in the day, while in 40k every one was a rare and precious thing - any of you guys see many 'blades?

And would you use them in your armies, especially when the legion tanks exist?

I'd ask if any Imperial Militia/Auxilia players use them, but are there even any players in the first place?

lets post some actual big guns

>How can you even lose control of your own fucking homeworld.
It's more likely than you think. Free PC check.

Ok.
>unzips dick

Alrighty then

>How can you even lose control of your own fucking homeworld.
Ask the Iron Warriors.

is there one of a Plasma Macro Battery?
I still prefer the Baneblade to all it's peers. And Tanks being crewed by Astartes just feel wrong to me. I think a Techpriest and half a crew of Servitors would do a better job of it than Spess Marens.

I get your point, but I wouldn't call a heavy assault trooper a baseline trooper, especially when they weren't the first ones. Before getting Thunder Warriors and back when he was but a warlord, the Emperor used genehanced mortal armies. Not to mention at the end of the Unification wars the legions were a few chapters in strenght.
At the end of the assault on the Tempest Galleries, the brand new XVIIIth of 20000 legionnaries had been reduced to but a thousand warriors.
My argument isn't about standards per se, but more about who was the baseline warrior of the Great Crusade.
In 40k marines are too few and are less common than the actual special forces Tempestus Scions, and in 30k there were more of them but still they were heavy assault rather than "the norm", simply because there has always been more mortals than marines in the Emperor's service.

Slowly working on the crew.

I don't think so, sadly.

I love that diagram though, one of my favourites for showing the land-battleship nature of the superheavies

>I wouldn't call a heavy assault trooper a baseline troope

If you're in an army of heavy assault troopers with more specialized heavy assault grenadier troopers, heavy assault sapper troopers and heavy assault artillery troopers, then then heavy assault trooper that's not one of those, who is the most common type of heavy assault trooper, is the standard, baseline heavy assault trooper.

>tfw you never got to deep strike an orbital defence laser onto the battlefield

Consider that Germany and its allies invaded the USSR with 3.5 million men. There were probably 2-2.5 million Astartes at their peak. Doesn't that make their numbers look small? If you're invading a world with regular humans, you're going to several million at the very least, more likely dozens of millions, and suddenly you've dwarfed the total number of Astartes just to take a single world.

Now repeat 100,000 times (assuming most compliances were peaceful).

When a massive space fleet parks on your orbit, nukes a few strategic sites and super soldiers bash your armies, it doesn't matter if the people want to surrender or not, they're outgunned and can only comply. Then Marines more onward and it's the Army that's left to pick up the pieces.

It's usually the worlds with any good tech and orbital defences that give Marines a hard time.

>Pic related is a heavy assault trooper
200 000 posthuman supersoldiers among a planet's worth of mortal troops aren't really the baseline.

>When a massive space fleet parks on your orbit, nukes a few strategic sites and super soldiers bash your armies, it doesn't matter if the people want to surrender or not, they're outgunned and can only comply.
If only that was true. Yet another falsehood.
The Imperial army did its thing, and whenever it encountered an impass, they called specialists like marines, or Titans / Taghmata / Reductors / Knights if available.
Against planets with M3-tier militaries like ours, they didn't have that much of a problem.

Did you even read my post to the end?

user, you're not getting anywhere by ignoring what's being said.

What you say reads like mortals don't exist at all. And Gardinaal had shit orbital defenses, and mostly used tank waves, nukes and AT-ATs to repel the Ultramarines.
So, I disagree with all three sentences of your previous post, yes. The second one is true, but you're not accounting for when the fight isn't fought by marines.
Like pretty much all of BL.
Ignoring what?
All of this comes from the fact someone said marines weren't the baseline human soldier in reference on how MkIII isn't a baseline armour mark but one designed for specialist use, and now you're saying humanity's armies are heavy assault troopers, with even heavier grenadier troops and heavy sapper and heavy artillery troops.
How do (You) describe mortals, then?

>What you say reads like mortals don't exist at all.

By mentioning Army?

Marines were the spearhead of Great Crusade. It wasn't until the very end of the when Army began to move to the front of the advance and pick up the slack. A planetary assault would need to start with Marines leading the way and targeting the primary threats while Army and other forces handle the secondary targets and mop up after the Marines.

>Gardinaal had shit orbital defenses

But clearly didn't have shit tech. It's not like the claim was that for a plane to fight back, they needed to have good tech AND good orbital defences. Either or both would do for the most part. Good orbital defences would mean the ships have harder time approaching and good tech means they can fight on the ground with more than sticks and stones.

>someone

Could you point to the exact post, so I don't have to speculate here?

I think a lot of us are just talking past each other now.

Marines were specialist if you look at the Imperium's forces as a whole. That's true. But they often had generalized tasks so they might not necessarily wear task-specific armor. Mk III is often described that way... but it's also pretty damn common in the stories. Not talking about Black Library here, but FW's black books.

There are a lot more Mk III color plates than Mk II, and all of the Mk II color plates are either set earlier in the Crusade, belong to a poorly-supplied legion, or a legion that expanded earlier than the rest. The black books seriously make it look like Mk II was used less than Mk III during the Heresy.

The modeling situation (plastic Mk III) greatly compounds that. You are going to see a lot of Mk III in real life. I'm just going to ignore the objections in my head and embrace the Mk III.

Not him, but Astartes being Standard doesn't exclude the Imperial Army being the largest fighting force.

Basically, the early Astartes were the baseline soldiers of the early Crusade. As the campaign progressed their function remained the same (strike planetary targets with immense force, destroying leadership and in general cutting the head of the snake), though their role in the overall armed forces changed (from the common baseline troop fighting in the front to assault specialists) - though not without exceptions like the Iron Warriors, who appear to have trucked on as usual.

This doesn't mean Astartes aren't "standard" soldiers, in the sense that their organisation is entirely separate and by far more cohesive than the Imperial Army or the various Forge Worlds etc supplying other specialist forces.

All good? All good.
Now tell me more about how my drybrushed marines are too sloppy for tabletop standard.

>make it look like Mk II was used less than Mk III during the Heresy.

Wouldn't be surprising, seeing that the MkIV was already replacing the MkII as the standard suit with MkVI being tested, and with the Heresy both it and the MkV began to see more use.

MkIII, as a specialist suit, would still retain its uses due to the heavy front armour. There wasn't really any alternatives for it, so it would stand reason that it got used for the purpose it was built.

Go ahead. It's perfectly reasonable for a company-sized force to go all MK III even for EC, considering the number of suits spread across even the smallest Legion.

Real men don't use power armour tho

>Real men don't use power armour tho
Boys join the marines; men join the Auxilia.

By

>A planetary assault would need to start with Marines leading the way and targeting the primary threats while Army and other forces handle the secondary targets and mop up after the Marines.
That's not the only way, as pic related says.

>deep strike an orbital defence laser
...there's something I'm missing here, isn't there?

Though I know in Planetstrike there was such a thing as a Drop-Bastion available as a stratagem

I disagree in all senses with your post.
Especially about this Warsmith (?) Salty Jago being too sloppy for tabletop use. He looks nice, especially with all that brass.
You won't give him hazard strips?

>now you're saying humanity's armies are heavy assault troopers

No, I'm talking about Marines. In a Marine army you have the "baseline marine" and then they have specialist troops. Aka. troops that aren't the baseline tactical mook rank and file Marine. And the MkIII is a suit for units engaging in situations where heavy protection is needed with minimal cover. Otherwise you'd use any number of the "standard issue" power armours, since the MkIII isn't the best all rounder, it makes compromises to achieve that protection.

If you just believe in yourself, you can achieve anything!
>Overwhelming firepower helps too.

That doesn't say they were landing on the planet without Marines, or that they were spearheading the assault, etc.

>No, I'm talking about Marines.
But I wasn't. I was talking about humanity in general.
I mean, of course MkIII isn't a baseline armour. Nobody would argue it is, when it's clearly not. Even the legions that had lots of MkIII, like IWs and IF and WE & DG still had a lot of MkIV base.

Old, 4e rules. If an immobile unit is held in reserves, it enters play via Deep Strike. Fortification rules didn't exist, so buildings were just immobile units you deployed normally.

I think 5e had something similar. I remember fantasizing about making Guard drop pods from Bastions by packing 20 dudes in and deep striking them onto the board.

Imperial Army has ways of landing on a planet that doesn't require marines.

For all intents and purposes, an Imperial Army/Guard Planetary Invasion is much more savage and severe than a Marine drop, since Marines do surgical strikes, compared to the mass assaults done by Guard/Army units.

Granted, before Guillimans reforms the Army units were more Auxilia and not equipped for the same challenges, but at least since the reforms the Imperial Guard is definately the Sledgehammer of the Imperium. Overshadowing even the old Expedition Fleets in terms of force.

True. It says that on another page. Oh so many marines in this one.

Yes.

30k can still technically use Planetstrike I think - it'd be a very flavourful way to do Istvaan, that's for sure

I do kind of want to make some "clearly just deployed" fortifications and stuff - drop bastions in legion colours with big engines, aegis lines - some deployed, some about to be, drop caches, that sort of thing

>Imperial Army has ways of landing on a planet that doesn't require marines.

Yes, but none of that says Marines aren't also landing on the planet and going after more important targets, or haven't already wiped those targets away and the SA are there just to mop up.

>Marines do surgical strikes, compared to the mass assaults done by Guard/Army units.

...

Thanks, that in book 7?

And of course you can't forget this amazing prefab motherfucker

I like this deepstriking fortresses thing.

Horus was literally famous for his "tip of the spear" surgical strikes at the enemy Command/HQ. While the Marines assault a single city or even valley at a time, the Imperial Army can open frontlines covering entire continents.

There is only so much ground you can cover with a few thousand Marines, as opposed to multiple million Human Soldiers.

Book six. Which also had this.

>Sentences must explicitly include "and space marines weren't there" or else space marines were there
>I cannot prove a space marine isn't in this picture, since it's not stated he isn't there.

There's also no line that says planets were conquered by a force with no Marines of any kind attached to the force.

In, say, 4e IG codex it says that it wasn't until the end of the Crusade that Army units were being moved to the offensive on their own, as Marine lines were being stretched very thin. It also makes notes that it was a mistake to put Marines in charge of humans, because they demanded too much from the humans and exhausted them fast.

>any of you guys see many 'blades?
knights killed the baneblade

which sucks, because baneblades are awesome

Honestly, I love the idea that the Auxilla/IG could use larger pre-fab structures like that and either drop them in from orbit in fall-away drop equipment, or are eased down by bulk landers. Provided orbital support is on hand (and anti-air threats have been taken care of) Aux/IG forces could rapidly tighten their grip on an area by tossing enough pre-fabs at an area to create a heavy defensive line

>Terran Legionaires are all pretty chill dudes or at least honour bound

>primarch homeworld recruits are traitorous scum and barbarian savages easily tempted by chaos

this is the impression a wide array of HH books gave me. Pretty much everyone of the "Arch Traitors" (aka Erebus, Typhus, Kor Pharon, Ahriman, Abbadon etc) were from the Primarchs homeworld and any loyalty they ever had to the emperor seems feigned at best.

Compare that to people like Marius Gage, who loves his Primarch dearly but still recognizes his duty to the Emperor above everything, or Garro, who appears to be the only Death Guard not itching to betray the emperor.

Might be BLs fault.

Ahriman was Terran though. As was Kharn.

I honestly assumed Ahriman was not terran, but it makes sense with him not even being loyal to his own primarch in the end.

And I don't remember Kharn ever being mentioned to be terran.