Everyone knows

No, 6th was absolutely shit. 6th laid the foundation for every level of shit that was in the 7th.

If you enjoyed last two editions of 40k, then 3rd/4th was the edition to play since it was actually beer and pretzels, 3rd edition and early 4th edition codexes were fucking amazing if you liked the grimdark of 40k instead of the rogue trader tongue in cheek.

8th edition is finally a legit beer and pretzels game.

One of the sins of old blood is that it is unable to see the faults that exist or even worse acknowledges such faults and screeches whenever the idea of addressing them comes up.

"beer and pretzels" is garbage in a world where you can play endless videogames that hold your hand, without the abstraction of physical models. The only thing tabletop has to offer over videogames is imagination combined with tactical depth. In 8th units don't even flee anymore, too difficult, just buy the models and call them toys.

Its the same disease that afflicts the fluff, the constant disprivileging of the Blanchian/nightmarish aesthetic. Adult babies coming out of the woodwork, moaning about how there are no good guys, how they want to pretend that they are characters in the fluff and they cant do that if they are bad scary men. Its fruity as fuck. There are a million generic sci fi settings in TT and videogames. If they don't like this one that is slightly out of step why do they have to be involved with it and change it to be like all the others. There are a million generic world of warcraft cartoonish fantasy settings, why did they have to change quite an unusual one to be like the rest. There are a million videogames, if they find 40k, one of the most simple dumbed down TT games ever, to be too hard for them, they should go play a videogame instead.

I meant the fact that a video game drew me to it.

>tabletop
>tactical depth
Are you kidding me? Any kind of tactical depth is shallow as fuck in tabletop, because of the natural limitations of dealing with multiple systems manually.
Computer games can get WAY deeper, way faster.

For sure, me and everyone I know has been on a modded ruleset since 4th that has random activation, persistent morale, command and control etc. I have no probs criticising 40k and addressing its problems, But in your opinion, what exactly did the further dumbing down in 8th address? Other than GWs need to appeal to the lowest common denominator and sell toys to people who in their heart of hearts actually don't like wargaming that much, but kid themselves.

Nah, I had the exact same trajectory, though it also helped that my parents played AD&D too.

Yeah, the only real advantage tabletop has over videogames is you can fudge the rules and make shit up on the fly.
For any actual game system, video games do it way better.

They can do, but in general that they don't, because the profitable audience for videogames tends to be stupider or not interested in that kind of thing, less engaged with what their doing etc.
It used to be that wargames were way more tactically nuanced than most video games because that's what their player base wanted. Now their audience is cringe weebs who basically want an excuse to buy toys, the depth of gameplay now reflects that.

>Its the same disease that afflicts the fluff, the constant disprivileging of the Blanchian/nightmarish aesthetic. Adult babies coming out of the woodwork, moaning about how there are no good guys, how they want to pretend that they are characters in the fluff and they cant do that if they are bad scary men. Its fruity as fuck. There are a million generic sci fi settings in TT and videogames.

holy shit man, why can't i write this good... you're 100% write. Once GW went full corporate that must have been the beginning of the decline

Can i marry into your family

Nnnah, wargames have always been kind of a kiddy pool compared to proper vidya games, ever since proper vidya games started existing.
They're not the blockbusters, but the complex stuff never is.

Videogames have the capability surpassing them in terms of a tactical experience I agree, so why is it that the ones that do can be counted on one hand? Its because of the intellectual expectation of their audience. Even a mid tier game like chain of command surpasses 99% of videogames in terms of depth. And thats before you consider customisability, creativity, the DIY ethos, using you imagination instead of watching the same canned animations again and again in someone elses virtual playpen.

Simply I see very few of 8th's changes as dumbing down and more getting rid of simulationist bloat that has accrued over years of keeping the chassis the same and just switching out the parts.

GW finally looked at various things and realized that maybe you really don't need to roll for X or maybe Y isn't working as intended and is attempting to fix them.

It's my understanding that 40k started out as a kind of hybrid RPG and went from there. 40k probably drew mechanical inspiration from some historical wargames, but as far as I'm concerned there is nothing binding it to those mechanics, especially if they serve no other purposes then to look pretty in someone's mind at the expense of slowed down and tedious gameplay.

>playing games that have animations
See, this is how I can tell you are kind of a tactical game pleb.

It also involves face to face human interaction, something you sorely lack in your life.

Adding the clonk armour pen rules from 2 is not removing simulationist bloat. Added tons of variable statuses to keep track of is not removing simulationist bloat. In fact, what have they done in this edition that isn't ADDING simulationist bloat? Getting rid of morale? Turning fleeing into just a different form of damage that doesnt change the situation on the field, doesn't let a unit leader bring their unit back into the fray, or fail to. All that does is just make the battles more preordained and boring. It might as well be football manager, you buy your guys I'll buy mine, well set them up in lines and see how they do today, minimal decision making in the actual game. Units run away and regain their composure in things like xcom, is that because xcom is wedded to the archaic mechanics of historical wargaming? No. Ill give you benefit of the doubt and assume that you are not very familiar with historicals but most of them are far less "simulationist" than any edition of 40k. And as someone who was there at the time, rogue trader was about as much of a hybrid RPG as something like dragon rampant, ie. not at all. The commonality 40k has with historicals is your battles end up looking like some kind of Napoleonic warfare with flat battlelines and no dynamics, and that comes from the original sin of 40k which is that it isn't alternate unit activation. Look into Epic armageddon if you want to see what I mean, back when GW made slight overtures to writing rules that don't necessarily appeal to the lowest engagement user.

Why do you think you need to beer and pretzels gameplay to have face to face interaction, face to face interaction goes without saying in any analog game.

Nice kooky webcomic "comedy" image derived from the fluff btw, you're definately not part of the problem. Have you read Gaunts Ghosts? It's like blackadder in the NOBLEDARK! It's hilarious! Excuse me commissar...LOL! Classic.

So you're going to leave the hobby? You'll sell your armies, or burn them, and leave forever? Never come back on Veeky Forums to make threads complaining about things you don't like?

Is this the last we'll ever see of you?

please respond.

>using a computer to play a sim of a hex and counter on your own

oh dear.

Hey, it lets you play the game about 60,000 times faster.

It's wrong tho. Something like Necromunda is insanely more deep than XCom for example.

>I know has been on a modded ruleset since 4th
can you post it?

Man necromunda is simple as shit, especially compared to xcom. Mechanics alone, man.

You can't find anything in XCom mechanics you don't have in necromunda, period.

Except the things it has that necromunda doesn't, like real working fire.
Necromunda is old, busted, and simplified so humans can process it man.

AoS vs. WHFB, yeah absolutely
nu40k is not even that different from old40k, though, just some different ways of handling things
I wouldn't call it dumbed down, it mostly just trades in some old ideas for newer ones, and it's not like the concept of moving your models backwards when they fail a Ld test was difficult to understand, it's literally just a different way of handling the same concept

Does necromunda have base building mechanics and tech trees?
Shit has really changed since I last looked at it.

>It's over.

>aging grognard who's upset that 40k is about to receive a much needed renaissance and total balance overhaul
sorry grandpa, your old netlists and beardy """""tactics""""" won't work anymore, you're actually going to have to git gud for once in your life

>base building mechanics
To be fair it does
>tech trees?
Not really a tech tree but there's a lot of progression in what you can get in a campaign (especially using inquisimunda rules)

>nu40k is not even that different from old40k
it isn't even out yet

Well, yeah, there are multiple types of progression, but I was hoping the thing had actual technology too. The guy made it sound like it had.

How's the base building?

>Implying 8th will be balanced
they haven't hired a mathmatician yet so that shit isn't going to be happening anytime soon.

we know most of the rules at this point, and the core game systems are more or less the same concept as before

What irks me a little is the prevalence if the grey tide in the new generation of gamers from AoS or WH40K 7th ed.

Seriously, I'm not playing against them but its fucking disrespectful for your opponent to play with your unpainted sigmarines or orruks.

>making up rules on an established game
Disgusting

Dude 7th was absolute fucking garbage and you know it.

obviously it won't be 100% perfect, because that's impossible in a game of this size, but I'm fully expecting it will be the most balanced edition yet and will revitalize the tournament scene

8th is going to be objectively better than 7th
hell it's closer to RT than fucking 7th

my commiserations for the damage I inflicted on your back passage.
Ill find an old sheet to scan later but theres hardly anything to it.
Some stuff off the top of my head
Random activation using playing cards one for each unit red vs black. (these days you can just use the bolt action dice and bag, place the dice next to each unit to keep track, etc)
Whoevers unit comes up goes, do your entire turn sequence with that unit, if your unit is fleeing/pinned/missing a turn for whatever reason you have to activate them before you get to your normal units.
If you activate a unit already locked in CC both units fight a round as if it was your assault turn.
Units accumulate the Epic Armageddon explosion markers, one for each casualty plus one for coming under fire even if you don't lose anyone, you can rally them off by going to ground based on your leadership. Counters till break is based on leadership and number of models.
Another good one to look up is 40k chain of command which a two page mod for chain of command by too fat lardies, unit interactions are all the same as 40k but you get chain of command semi random activation via leaders and command dice, fog of war, moving via blinds, ambushes, you never know where enemy units are going to appear, real overwatch, persistent suppression etc. it's good stuff but you need to know CoC first.

Sometimes you want to play an actual campaign and not just disjointed skirmishes, man.
And sometimes the wargame does not provide for that.

There's all sorts of games you might want to play that aren't technically within the appropriate skirmish rules.

Yes it has always had both, have you never played it?

people don't need the game to be balanced, just not feel like the game is fucking inevitably stacked against you no matter what you do. Fielding Orks and Tyranids shouldn't make you autoscoop.

No, I am a third party interested in playing it.
Apparently it doesn't have both though, as this guy just said.
He sounds more honest about it than you, and I heard him first.

I'm 29 and I tbf I hate the tourny era aswell, it's just not quite as shit as this new edition.

I thought wargaming AIDS was the condition where you couldn't give up the first wargame you started playing. Wargaming cancer is the game you keep buying things for even though you hardly ever play it.

still better than a GW shill, truly the lowest form of existence

I never said 7th wasn't shit, solution isnt to make it more shit though.

play some WFB 3E or 40k RogueTrader/1E

I actually like the rules we've seen so far. Orks and Nids not being absolute shit is a nice change.

>Dude 7th was absolute fucking garbage and you know it.
thats exaclty what the OP is saying.... retard
nugamers have been faggotificating wargaming for 20 years

>suggesting warhammer based stuff for complexity
wat

People played RT in official GW's up until the late 90s for the customisability. Making custom stuff is the essence of RT, just having armour save mods doesnt mean its closer to RT.

You've been wading in so much shit that you can't even recognize a good thing when you see one can you?

Yeah, but no one plays any other TT wargames consistently, and the models are nice.
Plus 8th is objectively better than 7th in almost every way.

>Nu40k will be garbage for remedials, in both fluff and rules.
>WILL BE
>I cant read but I'll call you a retard

OPs point is that the rules are being simplified
to attract numales and low IQ children, not that the rules are making the factions balanced

and he is 100% correct

>confirmed for never having played competetively
decent netlists will appear 3 months into the new edition, latest

>t. gamist
get out of my hobby. now. simulationism all the way.

>newcomer who found out about GW through video games and the preceded to inject AIDS into our hobby for the last decade or so. It's over.
what do you have to say for yourself?
you are the exact kind of low IQ mix raced millenial that is destroying wargaming

go get the beautiful WFB 3E rulebook, user. behold in wonder and amazement. modern GW rules were dumbed down with WFB 4E and 40K 3E, respectively

Numale here
If you want to play an unbalanced bloated game with a tiny playerbase that hates outsiders there are plenty to choose from, but 40k is mine now

>netlists
Yeah of course there will be netlists, but it won't be anywhere near as much of a ridiculous stomp as it is now. Right now it's either netlist or nothing.
Will there be min/maxing? Of course, no system is immune, but if a non-WAAC list can reasonably compete as long as you're a decent player, then that's as close to balanced as a game like 40k can ever be.

Two facts:

1. The average IQ of western countries is plummeting.
2. People think AoS and Nu40k are superior to their ancestors.

These two things are directly related.

The fuck... have you only played the new XComs or something?

>muh simplified rules are attracting more children and retards
People have been saying this shit since 2nd edition and it's never once panned out. Quit panicking you fuck, your autistic clubhouse isn't being invaded by normies.

more steps to the process =/= greater intellect required
streamlining the game will revitalize it and bring a 2nd golden age to 40k, just like 3rd edition did

What he means by no tech tree is you aren't researching upgrades or things like that. You generate a points-like resource after each game to upgrade your gear, recruit, and generally improve your team but it's not a tree system where you have to get A before B. It's more "spend 50 points on one cool gun or by 3 15 point ones to equip more guys"

>he actually thinks swarmlord is impressive
lmao he's still gonna get crushed by other factions big bads.

and genestealer blobs while scary in theory have the exact same problem they've always had: they'll be shot dead, 5++ is nothing.
Meanwhile their best tactic of being 5-man tactical distraction squads is now suboptimal because you want to get atleast 10 of them into melee.

And we still have no idea about the rest of the codex, the only neat thing so far is that warriors aren't insta-gibbed, now it's just a high chance that they get instagibbed.

I found out about 40k in 4th when my friend bought me a box of oldcrons and said "I found out about some cool shit in this model store. This is the easiest faction to paint.Lets do it faggot."

But thats neither here nor there. OP didnt say shit about 7th's ruleset in his post, just more generic 'back in my day' bullshit that makes me roll my eyes.
>you are the exact kind of low IQ mix raced millenial that is destroying wargaming
Love you too

>it's never once panned out

wow

>just like 3rd edition did
obvious troll

the game has always been and always will be populated primarily by sweaty basement dwellers, prove me wrong

the game will become massively popular again like it was in 3rd-5th edition era, getting a game won't require the use of vassal40k anymore

How did he know you were a faggot?

We sucked each other dicks all the time

>he thinks MC being wounded on +5 by bolters is good

it literally is
changes like that will massively flatten the power gap between netlists and fluffy lists

>There are a million generic world of warcraft cartoonish fantasy settings, why did they have to change quite an unusual one to be like the rest.

GW wants to sell their products. If they need to change their fluff to accomodate it, they will do it. What is so hard to understand about this? If it doesn't suit you anymore you have to either cope or leave to another system that caters to your needs.

That being said, I disagree with the notion that 40k gets the WoW treatment. The fluff moves forwards, that is all.

>it literally is
how?
if by flatten the powergap you mean make all options shit then sure.

>the game will become massively popular again like it was in 3rd-5th edition era, getting a game won't require the use of vassal40k anymore

Is AoS massively popular? I walk past dark sphere on the way back from work every weekday, I've literally never seen it played by anyone there. Never seen it on the schedule, nowhere to be seen on the schedule right now. Necromunda, a game from 1995 is on the rota every week and I also see it on casuals quite often when I have a look in. WFB is "dead" and there is often a game on. You see KoW quite a lot. I've seen HOTT going (once) more often in there than AoS (never). I'm sure you're right though and were about to enter a golden age of nu40k, everyone will love it definitely wont just buy the starter for the models and move on. I'm absolutely positive that in a few years time people wont be playing hundreds of games of the re-release adeptus titanicus while keeping their 40k collections because they like the models but never playing the game.

>The fluff moves forwards, that is all.
the fluff moving forward is badly written to the extreme.
you can only have so many "they're all doomed now and everything is hopeless" and then they walk away unscathed before it becomes lazy writing.

To be fair AoS's problem isnt the rules its the fluff. If 8th editions stuff manages to keep the bullshit to a minimum it'll be fine.

that's what the rules are for you dingus.

For games like 40k, there's another advantage, which is that physically assembling, painting, and playing games with actual little army men is fun.

This like the first time 40k has given the Imperium any shred of hope for the future though.

I am not going to argue that the fluff is pretty bad. The whole "Fall of Baal" getting resolved with Khorne randomly killing of an entire Tyranid invasion fleet in a few moments, saving the last Blood Angels is retarded beyond comprehension.

>he doesn't understand how to play the game if there aren't 2 or 3 models that can carry his entire list
>unironically using AoS as a point of comparison
40k isn't massively changed by the new system, AoS was just a slap in the face to all WHFB players

Wait what? when the fuck does this happen and why?

AoS was delivered extremely poorly.

8th ed was delivered excellently. The hype machine for the most part knew what the community wanted and delivered.

Yes, because little Timmy who bought the Space Marine starter shouldn't spend all his time losing against the same riptide over and over again.
If all options are shit then all options are balanced at lower levels. Then the game reaches a good status in terms of balance. Are you fucking stupid?