Looking for a good system for Rainbow 6 / SWAT style operator gameplay

Don't forget Thatcher and Twitch. Since Thatch can disable their fooking laser sights and Twitch can be a fucking pain in the fucking ass that destroys all their gadgets.
So yeah they REALLY want to get in that building.

>ops and tactics
>extreme realistic simulationist
No, that's completely incorrect. Sure there's over 1,000 guns in the game. But there's not much difference between them in actual gameplay. an M4 acts almost exactly the same as all the other 5.56 carbines in game the only difference being weight and cost. Your statement is true of Phoenix Command, but not Ops and Tactics where there's just a bunch of guns with simplified stats.

I think just having 1,000 guns in the game puts it on that end of the scale, but sure, I'm really not experienced with either of those games. I massively prefer the other end

I hate to be the one to tell you this, man, but the M4 in real life is almost exactly the same as all other 5.56 carbines except for weight and cost.

Ammunition is the #1 factor in firearms, modified for barrel length. Some guns are more accurate, but the M4 is pretty much middle of the road accuracy wise, and if match ammunition isn't being used then the small differences from the firearm won't change the outcomes.

I've been following the game since like 4E, the game is about as realistic as DnD (being based of d20 Modern and all) so it fits very well into the "inbetween" category, because while guns are generally lethal, you still have HP so you don't have these long recovery times with horrific wounds after being shot. It gives you plenty of guns to toy with too, generally just being different flavors of your preferred caliber, or in some cases being singular examples of rare calibers.

Naturally, but there are a few things that do seperate an AR pattern rifle from an AK pattern rifle like tolerances and operation method, but I do understand overall one gun is more or less the same as the other, but there are some minute details that make some prefer one over the other. Which Ops and Tactics doesn't particularly model outside of a feat choice.

What stats should any of those details actually modify, though?

Outside of guns that are genuinely unreliable, the bullet is going to hit the target, and cause damage based on it's design and velocity, without any of those things being taken into consideration.

Well, even in the same caliber class some weapons have different felt recoil than others. A heavier gun generally has less felt recoil than a lighter one. But overall it depends on the system Ops and Tactics isn't built to model the intricate details of weapons outside of a semi-realistic game, like RO2 or Insurgency in vidya terms, so you can't really model things like the FALs adjustable gas system. Meanwhile Phoenix Command on the far end of the simulationist spectrum differentiates the lengths of weapons both with the stock folded or unfolded and plays in half second increments, so you can easily model things like smaller carbines being easier to manuever in small places and different rifles taking longer to load because of how the mechanism works.

Of course I love both games myself, I'm currently running and Ops and Tactics campaign. My point being is it's not a hardcore super realism simulator like one user suggested, but it's a great inbetween if you don't feel like digging through GURP's endless rules on shooting or Phoenix Command's dated ballistics and many, many, many tables.

thanks for suggestions any more?

GURPS: Tactical Shooting, to be precise, user.

Honestly, I'm in a similar boat as you are user, I'm always looking for games that are somewhat realistic modern games. So far I've manged to get GURPS, Ops and Tactics, Twilight 2000, Phoenix Command and Friday Night Firefight. Ballad of the Laser Whales can work admirably as well, though it requires some refluffing to work.

I'm really looking for aspecific type of autioms

customization, weapon hits, but simple base mechanics

more about gear than stats

If you're focused on being able to go full autismo with your rifle, then My recommendation would probably have to be Ops and Tactics at the top of that list. Full on MOLLE vest customization, plenty of tacticool attachments to stick on your gun, a passable list of survival gear, something like 1,200 unique firearms with the ability to easily add more. Ontop of that if you want to run a fantastical game you have a magic system that's one of my favorites or if you want futuristic you have an entire book dedicated to near-ish future with even more options. It plays like DnD 3.5 so if you have familiarity there it should be easy to pick up. Only problem is like I said, it's an HP system so things are generally less realistic and once you get to high levels things get ridiculous in terms of character HP (My level 5 players all have somewhere between 30-50 points of damage soak before things really start hurting, most rifles you'd actually encounter only do a max of 20-30 damage. This is before armor is factored in.)

Another thing to be on the lookout for, encounters will be difficult to balance. It's not as simple as tossing some more skilled dudes at the players because attack bonuses scale while AC doesn't, so once players start picking up a few feats and a decent BAB, cover immediately stops mattering and it becomes a slug fest.

You wouldnt happen to have the PDFs on hand, would you?

I'm a big fan of Cyberpunk 2020. Used it a lot for random modern adventures (without cyber). It works pretty good, it's really easy to learn and is pretty brutal without cyberware and techno-gadgets. It's also pretty simple to convert real-world guns.

Delta Green's new edition also has an excellent combat system.

Ops and tactics.
Gurpsfags fuck off.

Ops and Tactics is even worse than GURPS. It's just DnD with a retarded long gun list.

Well as much as that's true Ops and Tactics isn't that bad. On top of that there's not much else that fills in the void if you discount both OaT and GURPS.

Cyberpunk 2020 has an excellent gun combat system.

How does the newer editions of Cyberpunk, compare to Friday Night Firefight? I've got the books but never got a chance to play.

FNFF is more complex (ex. guns do variable damage depending on range...). CP2020 streamlined and simplified everything for added dynamism. CP2020 also uses a health monitor instead of hit points.

Looking through it as well, it seems like FNFF doesn't seem to cover much, it's weapon selection's pretty limited to most common weapons of the time. Good for a one off thing, but not much for a campaign it seems. Phoenix Command or Cyberpunk itself probably works better for long campaigns.

If you want to go full autismo then very little matches the gritty autism of Phoenix Command

The problem with PC is a matter of being able to find players, the book keeping of the turn system and having all the tables printed out.

OP has them.

>"American" hair color

Americans are blond.

The beauty of FNFF and Cyberpunk 2020 is that you could spend days converting weapons.

Go for a run with your friends

Nice and HEALTHy

... A shadow run?