after years of tryhard grittiness, i wanted to get into doing a bit more cinematic and narrative-influenced combat to regulate encounters and generally give more controll to the players.
i still use a pretty crunchy system, though.
what are some mechanics and tips for doing this? i wanted to use things like fatepoints that can be earned through investment in roleplay, any other suggestions?
What do you mean by 'cinematic'?
Why are to sticking with your current system?
How far are you willing to change the rules of that system?
Just tell the story and flip a coin every time you want something to be unpredictable. Retards who want cinematic deserve nothing better
What exactly is that fox doing?
Legends of the Wulin is a truly fantastic system with a unique blend of mechanical crunch and narrative flavour... If you can ever figure out how to fucking play it, because the core book is a nightmare.
Don't do it. Metamechanics are complete shit. Just look at bennies in savage worlds. They pussify the game into a hugbox where the characters almost never fail, then they can just call the end to the session when they run out of bennies.
Except that's not how it actually works in practice? I mean, unless you're playing with assholes, but that's more about the group than the game.
Bennies are get out of jail free cards for player fuck ups. All metamechanics at like that. There is no good argument for them existing. If they are there to make up for a power deficiency on the characters part, then make the characters more powerful. If the goal is to make things fit to a better story, then why not rely on GM fiat instead of a soendavlr resource? There is no point to metacurency existing.
Same as quantum ogres and letting the players roll for the monsters, it gives the players something to do and makes them think they are doing something..
#1 is a crutch of bad DMs and #2 doesnt even happen outside of retard games like dungeon world. If you rely on shitty game mechanics to elicit a sense of player agency, then you are being a railroading twat and shit GM . Which i am guessing you are not, but if you were, that would still not excuse or justify shitty mechanics.
Just because you can't understand the point doesn't mean there isn't a point.
It's about sharing narrative control and promoting player agency, as opposed to the traditional model of focusing it all on the GM.
Judging by how its ears are folded back, probably looking at the monitor in absolute disgust after seeing how weebshit reduces the concept of fox people down to the most bastardized of forms. Should probably save that image and edit the screen with a picture of a /pfg/ thread.
>Just because you can't understand the point doesn't mean there isn't a point.
Except I do understand the point. I just think it's shit anyway. Since you didn't provide a counter argument, you have mine, and can fuck off now please.
But you didn't make an argument, or have a point. You made incorrect assertions based on your misunderstanding of the concept, I corrected you, and then you dismissed it out of hand.
It's almost like you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
Just ignore him. He does this same shit any time someone brings up Savage Worlds.
I like having a 'stuff' metacurrency. You spend a point to have some appropriate item on your person, useful for the situation. Works best in games that aren't all about collecting loot.
This generally works best as the bottom end of an abstract wealth system.
I really like things like this. Define the top end, a few key, signature or particularly useful items, leave everything else abstracted.
Then again, I just fucking hate having to muddle my way through granular equipment lists for tiny bits and pieces. It's the worst.
A system I played had a rule like this:
A critical fail causes a GM intrusion.
The player can either accept the intrusion as well as 2 xp (one to keep, one to give to another player) and then something bad and usually outside the rules happens. They can also pay 1 xp to stop the intrusion. You can burn xp at any point to give yourself an immediate turn, or reroll any check.
Eurgh. As fun as those ideas sound, I despise the idea of systems which let you burn permanent progression resources for temporary benefit.
...You nailed it.
I expected to be called a faggot.
Then separate them. xp is just a name. Call them fuck points instead, and still give them normal xp.
>Preferring fuck points to twat tokens.
>ass allotment
>pussy pool
>dick dice
>buggery bonus
> taint tally
ITT: Anons who think pure RNG and rocket tag are fun for players
i dont like to use explicit meta-currency myself, but if you do it, then show the players that it is extremely limited and may just delay the consequences of a fuck-up.
i once played in a campaign with a similar mechanic that let you betray death: for example, if you roll shitty and are about to be ripped apart by bullets, you can use up a so-called devil mark that let's you trip and fall down instead of taking the damage.
depending on how many fights you'll be doing and how the general power level of the encounter lies, meta currencies shouldnt be used more often then once per session or fight.
also, if you want to keep certain encounters from being too easy due to rolls, you can randomly hand out meta currency to enemies.
and be sure to use them as a reward for engaged players, that helps a lot.
i've been doing that sometimes just through narrative, but if your players are rule autists, stuff like fate points can make it easier for you
>It's almost like you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
Its almost like I've played savage worlds got 2.5 years and I am intimately familiar with what a shit game it is.
>ITT: Anons who think pure RNG and rocket tag are fun for players
Nice straw man. Not everything in an RPG is about (((((fun ))))))
How is that in any way relevant to you rambling on about why meta mechanics are terrible, while obviously having no understanding of them?
You played one system, sure. You clearly never really understood it, although it also sounds like you might've played it with shitty people, which sucks for you. I'm not super fond of SW either.
Why are foxes so much cuter than dogs?
If I am sitting down to enjoy a leisure time activity with my friends, you're fucking insane if you think it's not about fun.
Fun can come in many different ways. Social engagement, mechanical challenge, depth of roleplay, compelling storytelling, surprise and excitement and despair... All of these things and more can add to the fun.
But that's the key bit. All of these things, and whatever happens in the context of the group, should add to the fun. So yeah, go fuck yourself.
Other than tail wagging, foxes have an almost opposite body language from dogs. Depending on whether it is whining or not this one might be curious or happy.
>Not everything in an RPG is about (((((fun ))))))
You really need to fuck off.
>Except that's not how it actually works in practice?
Doesn't matter, user already misrepresented how the game works. If you try to call him on it now, you're just a shill.
>then they can just call the end to the session when they run out of bennies.
>players
>call the end to the session
No. Try again.
Damn it, one came up to me like that and I kicked it thinking it was rabid. It was probably someone's lost pet.
No, YOU really need to fuck off. Stop acting like the game has to pander to your enjoyment when your sense of what is fun is twisted and fucking retarded, you don't want a game you want a contrived power wank, and anything else is "rocket tag" or "RNG bullshit"......are you fucking kidding me faggot? If you don't like RNG......THEN DON'T USE FUCKING DICE. Play the fuckin Amber RPG or something, if you're too much of a pussy to deal with random numbers fucking up your oh so precious story. "Fun" is the stupidest reason for anything ever. "Well that's more fun".......so fucking what? That's not an argument for anything, it lowers the discourse of the game discussion, its basically you moving the goalposts to hide behind subjective opinion when you realize you can't name a single actual solid legitimate reason for using the game mechanic you are defending, so you retreat to "fun." Well that's bullshit. Fucking ass is fun but it sure wouldn't make a good RPG game mechanic.
"Fun" is not an acceptable metric for good game design, though. Go ahead, try designing an RPG on the sole constraint that it be "fun" and I will sit back and laugh at the massive heap of garbage that you produce.
Players can call an end to the session whenever they want. It's called, we dont want to play anymore because why should we? Also if you force them to keep going they will just turtle, avoiding challenges because they are out of bennies to deal with them. I've seen it before, bennies negatively affect how players play the game because the game is far too fucking dependent on them. They should be removed.
>played savage worlds got 2.5 years
>never understood it
>according to someone who is yet to present a counterargument as to why bennies are good
>according to someone who is yet to explain why metacurrncy does NOT promote the worst kinds of metagaming
>Also if you force them to keep going they will just turtle, avoiding challenges
and you let them because? As the GM your job is to challenge the PCs, that means keeping the pressure on
"Ok since we didn't finish the last session your bennies have not been refreshed."
Nope, total dogshit. Just write real mechanics that feel cinematic you stupid fuck
>Bennies are get out of jail free cards for player fuck ups.
How is that any different from a Wizard spending a spell slot?
you mean ones independent from random numbers?
The system i run have two aspects of this, basically calling them classes. Giving them a specific power.
Fortune.
The character is blessed by fourtune and can every week spend a number of points (quite expensive to raise) that is basically them saying "i bid 5 points that this happens." the scale is something along the lines of magnitude likelyhood it would happen anyway. The police randomly showing up at this street today would be 1 point(assuming at least a moderate police presence). Showing up this hour would be 3. Right this minute would be 4, and right this second would be 5, as it would be one in 100 000.
They could blow it all on one significant "perfect solution" or have it work like a smooth machine that decent odds are guarantees and bad odds are decent odds.
I've seen both. It's completely dependent on the players creativity which is interesting.
The other is Genius.
This is the opposite. You have a rough number of points that makes you able to retcon that your character saw this coming. Everything up to this point still happened. But in the non-descript time before this the character have done something.
1 would be "I brought silver to defeat the werewolf". Assuming the character knew about the werewolf, the werewolfs vulnerability to silver and that they were going to fight the werewolf today.
If he did not know that there was a werewolf, but he knew he was going to fight today, he knew the werewolfs vulnerability the same thing would be 2. Because he was prepared for the unexpected.
And so on and so fourth. For every step he has to jump the cost raises with 1. Basically, having a silver sword when you are jumped by the werewolf would be 4.
The system have been tested for a few years now and it's balanced by the fact that the other calsses have strengths that are more relatable. (Magic, spirits, dvine magic, vigor(strength, resistance, magic resistance), excellency and inspiration.)
It requires the players have a sense of fairness.
Fine, I'll bite. What is this objective definition of fun that you possess?
Hybrid systems are the best.
Dice to blame shit on and resolve most things AND a narrative force when it really gets serious.
just be limited about handing out those points, and/or dont make them broken.
Spending Luck/Fate might let you survive otherwise deadly things, but you still suffer consequences of bad rolls.
I don't think you really need specific mechanics as that. If one of my players does something that I feel is cool, I just let them succeed without rolling simple as that.
This.
Players are a part of the story. But it's the GMs role to determine how much of an influence they have. Players will almost without exception, make things easier for their characters. So if they have an abundance of narrative control, luck dice, Story cards or whatever, things will be easier.
While not giving them enough, they will come up and the players will most likely try and focrce a single big gamble that they pump their collective points into.
Surely the players winning everything isn't a cinematic mechanic? Any movie where the protagonists just succeed at everything they do sucks.
They still rake in millions at the box office.
what movie are we discussing here?
You get fate points for struggling with your flaws, so I wouldn't call it winning everything.
As someone who has played a lot of these games, this is flatly untrue. One of the most fun parts of metacurrency systems is using them to generate extra complications and problems. Easy is boring.
I schedule my games at a set begin time and end time with my players. If they decide to call an end to the game before then, it needs to be for a good reason. "We want our bennies back" isn't one. If they insist on strategically quitting, I either go with what said or if it's a persistent problem I let them know it's not working out.
As for turtling, it's never been a problem, because I'm a halfway competent DM. Challenges exist independent of players, it's up to them whether they want to deal with them or face them. Refuse, and there are negative consequences, up to and including complete failure.
I was making a point to the people in the thread who don't like narrative mechanics because they make thing too easy. Auto-success mechanics aren't narrative mechanics because they actively remove any tension in the narrative. Getting fate points by showing flaws however does create as many problems as it solves so it is a narrative mechanic.
>darkkinghtjoker.gif
>Fucking ass is fun but it sure wouldn't make a good RPG game mechanic.
>this faggot has never been to faggot LAPRs
>playing EotE
>"OKAY GUYS TIME TO FLIP ALLLL THE FORCE DICE!"
Absolute madman
Yeah it is. The best players are actually ok with spending efforts in succeeding in bad choices that makes things worse.
My anecdote says most players are not the best players.
Then again if you just need a random result does it matter if it comes from rolling dice or from the ass?
>So if they have an abundance of narrative control, luck dice, Story cards or whatever, things will be easier
This is absolutely true, and part of DMing these systems well is making sure that the Fate Points or Bennies or whatever a valuable resource. Not so precious that PCs don't use them, mind, but not so available that they can boost every damn thing.
Narratively, it's a give and take. In Fate, you normally get points for accepting a failure or taking a big hit. And then you later get to use that bit of karma to boost a roll. It acts as a rubber-banding mechanism for the story. Players start a session with some "freebie" points, but they get less of them (sometimes as little as one) if they play powerful characters.
I'd recommend Dresden Files as a very crunchy version of the Fate system. It can be pretty easily ported to any fantasy setting.
>Why are foxes so much cuter than dogs?
Fluffy tails, much more nimble, has a face reminiscent of a dog mixed with cat, and stereotyped as being both intelligent and cunning?
True. And the Wizard will make it irrelevant either way, so just help yourself to that luscious rump.
Fun != Entertaining
Fun != enjoyable
You're misusing the word "fun" so badly that you've completely stripped it of its meaning.
what is fun then, if not entertaining nor enjoyable?
Things that are fun are entertaining and enjoyable, but not all things that are entertaining and/or enjoyable are fun.
Faggot LARP is okay. Overall it's fun but I know it's a game of pretend but it really breaks my immersion when some fresh twink wannabe shows up with a character build that's clearly something they read off the forum to make this huge buttslut archetype with thier anal circumference stat pumped up higher than Cheech, even though they can barely take an entry level dildo IRL. I get that you wanna play a character but builds like that should be left for the real catchers of the world.
...
Okay, let's put it this way: what element entertaining or enjoyable thing must have to become fun?
>kicked a fox
NIGGA WHAT
WHAT?!
Wait what
>alter your plans and disrupt the natural flow of a story to compensate for a shitty game mechanic
Yeah no I don't think so.
...
Those aren't per session, dumb fuck. They relate to something the character actually knows. Also a wizard who puts most of his spells into insurance type escape/ protection spells is going to be a cuck tier buff artist and feel like he's contributing nothing. That part is irrelenavt though, the real point is that spells are something the character knows about, bennies are metagame bullshit points.
>I schedule my games at a set begin time and end time with my players
So? They can just sit there and do nothing until the time runs out. Why wouldn't they? It's no different than deciding to take a rest in D&D when your are low on hit points. Except the difference is that it's based on real world time instead of in game time. Why are you punishing your players for being smart?
>As for turtling, it's never been a problem, because I'm a halfway competent DM. Challenges exist independent of players, it's up to them whether they want to deal with them or face them
So your story gets fucked over because players turtle and thus story elements go onward, yet they are making an objectively bad decision by proceeding. It's a conflict of interest, produced by a shitty game mechanic, and you seem interested in defending it. Not to mention RPG time scales are flexible so unless there are literal seconds counting down (which gets old fast), they can probably find some dumb bullshit to distract them until the session ends.
Also what the hell do you do if there is an extended combat or action sequence and you have to split it over multiple sessions due to time? More bennies? The rules technically say yes.
Oh and what if you like playing shorter sessions because it is all you have time for at the moment? Why do characters suddenly become more powerful just because you do a 2 hour session instead of 4 to 6 as suggested? You can't even divide up the bennies evenly. Yeah shorter savage worlds sessions are ideal because the characters become nearly twice as powerful.
Admit it. Bennies are fucking bullshit. It's arguable whether other metacurrency is good or not, but bennies are bad. Yeah you can deal with them, yeah you can rationalize them, but there is no good reason for them to exist.
Except a faggot larp is not an RPG. This is why fun is not an argument, it's a buzzword. Because if you show up to an RPG session and find nine people buttfucking, you're going to be pissed off. Sure, everyone is having fun, but they advertised an RPG and this is not an RPG.
Stop discussing fun. It is MEANINGLESS as a metric for game design. It's a symptom, not a goal.
They're cute but they're urban pests that spread rabies and mange, and this one came up to me from behind and bumped my leg.
So glad I learned it was trying to make friends, now I have one more thing to feel like shit about.
Dude if it was rubbing up against you it clearly wasn't wild.
This same logic applies to any system where players maintain resource pools that recover over time (whether in game or out of game).
So any system that has stamina, fatigue, energy/mana, health and so on, is shit.
basically, ttrpgs are all shit.
Resting in the middle of an adventure has an in-game consequence - they're wasting time. If you're a competent DM, bad things happen when characters waste time. It might be the right decision, but there should always be a cost. That's not punishment, either.
Quitting the game early, on the other hand, only has an out-of-game consequence - the game ends early. I don't punish players in game for out of game actions. I just talk to them, remove the in-game benefits that are rewarding this out-of-game action, and eventually decide if I really want to keep playing with them. None of that is punishment.
Ah, there's the problem. You're still thinking of things in terms of your story that's going to get fucked up. Thing is, it's the group's story, and that's what metacurrency encourages. I just set up the world and the plot, but they determine how things resolve. If they want to choose the ending where the heroes hesitated and let something awful happen, then that's the ending they chose.
As for your specific questions... I try not to pace the game so I have to split things over multiple sessions. That's basic GMing - you should always end a session in an interlude, even if that interlude is right before the climax. Shorter sessions? Obviously you plan different types of encounters for different session lengths. That's not even a metacurrency thing, that's a "making the time worth it" thing.
Honestly, I think you've just accidentally hit on a big problem with metacurrency, in that they require some level of competent GMing to function properly. So well done, I guess. But that's true of a lot of things, so it's kind of silly to single them out.
That is like saying that making money is a symptom of a business rather than the goal. Fun is subjective but it is *the* goal of game design.
Ever seen an animal with rabies? They come up to you.
Poor stupid fox. This is why you chip your pets and put collars on them.
Not unless you're playing a comedy game.
You shoukd try and play Fate Core or a PbtA game.
>basically, ttrpgs are all shit.
And now we have reached nir/v/ana
>This same logic applies to any system where players maintain resource pools that recover over time (whether in game or out of game
No you fucking bigger the entire point was that distinction you just skipped over. Fucking mongoloid, do you even understand what metagaming is? I mean I knew Veeky Forums was retarded but this is a 2nd level of intentional ignorance.
>Ah, there's the problem. You're still thinking of things in terms of your story that's going to get fucked up. Thing is, it's the group's story, and that's what metacurrency encourages. I just set up the world and the plot, but they determine how things resolve. If they want to choose the ending where the heroes hesitated and let something awful happen, then that's the ending they chose
Did I imply I didn't? It still negatively affects the plot by making characters act in a way they wouldn't usually act. Making a sandbox campaign with a few time bombs doesnt fucking fix that.
Stop assuming other people don't know how to dm to avoid facing how shitty bennies are.
>Honestly, I think you've just accidentally hit on a big problem with metacurrency, in that they require some level of competent GMing to function properly.
You mean, the GM needs to put in extra effort to compensate for anything that shouldnt even be in the game in the first place. Nice """""""argument""""""" it's a clever subtle ad hominem deflection but it doesn't work on me y.
>Fun is subjective but it is *the* goal of game design.
Confirmed for never having designed a game or been part of a design team. Even the amateurs over at /gdg/ would laugh you out of the room for that ass- traded statement.
Except that won't actually happen except maybe once, because they'll understand that choosing to act differently will have repercussions, rather than just being a free way to recover Bennies.
If the refresh rate on Bennies is having that drastic an effect on how your players behave, then someone's doing a bad job, and it's not the folks writing Savage Worlds.
dude, this is meme-tier BS. if the players do that, the GM can simply delay refreshment of bennies at the start of the next session for the amount of time skipped in the current session.
you can hate metacurrency, fine, but at least bring something worthwhile to the table like
dude, we played Rolemaster for many years and the GM assigned 3 rerolls per character per lifetime as a houserule. for good reason, the game is too deadly without life-saving rerolls. either that or you avoid the fun combat system like a trembling virgin.
metacurrency has its uses.
If not being a complete idiot is extra effort for you, then yes, it takes extra effort. I'm sorry that's difficult for you.
amateur from /gdg/ here. the only problem with that statement is that it signifies nothing because of its vagueness. what IS fun. clearly, those who like realism don't like metacurrency and won't enjoy it. likewise those players who want a challenge and see the challenge level reduced by metacurrency are going to dislike it. people who seek a power wank without significant challenge are more likely to enjoy it
all of the above are gamers though, gamers with different preferences.
Question, why are we still arguing with the Neanderthal who has struggled to understand Savage Worlds for less than 3 years?
He's only going to continue to deflect everything and argue in circles.
Not really worth your time when you could be building something cool for your next game, or painting mini's, or reading something informative.
dude, just houserule to refresh bennies at certain points in the story rather than session start if u got douchebag players. rules are bad if they are dysfunctional AND hard to bugfix. this is easy to houserule and doesnt warrant a shitstorm
well, he understands it, he just wants to diss it because, i suspect, bennies take out a bit of the challenge level. different strokes for different folks.
>the GM needs to put in extra effort to compensat
Meta-currency systems definitely require the GM (and the players) to get over a new learning curve, but IMO once you get there it actually makes the GM's life easier.
A lot of the shit that would previously have required a ruling and/or tweaks to the system and/or planning ahead just sort of works itself out.
This is probably most evident in the way experienced groups can use something like Fate in a pick-up game. You can come to the table with no prep whatsoever and still pull off a decent session, because the meta-system lets you fake a lot of the stuff believably until you actually need it. That's really damn hard to do in more pure-simulation systems like D&D.