Genius approach for new VtM character

I've been a GM for nearly fifteen years now, and this morning, I got the most surprising attempt at creating a character that I've ever seen.

I don't need a advice, just a place to vent.

There's a player of other RPG's, been playing them for at least five years, maybe more. He's not a perfect player, but he shows promise sometimes, and he has been asking me for a VTM game.

I promised him a game, and we talked about a potential character. He said he'd manage creating a V20 character by the book, and I said sure.

The image is what he sent me.

For those not in the know, Generation is the background trait that determines the power of the vampire, and using a regular character sheet and rules provided by the book, it only goes up to 5 dots.

The book doesn't even have descriptions of higher traits, nor does include a character sheet that has space for a sixth dot.

He found a custom character sheet, and spent freebie points at the creation process to raise the generation up to 6, assuming that that would land him an even more powerful vampire than getting a trait of 5.

When I asked him about it, he said that the rulebook doesn't have the limit explicitly defined, and it didn't say anywhere that he couldn't raise the trait up to six.

As an added bonus, he took Humanity 8 so he could "diablerize more vampires, because diabelerie always reduces one's humanity."

How is this my life.

tl;dr version:
>player creates a 6 dot generation character, because he didn't find anything in the book that forbid him
>It doesn't matter that the regular character sheet doesn't even have space for six dot backgrounds.


Any other rants about character creation headaches?

Seems like a good time to introduce rule zero.

I've had so many terrible roll20 applications they don't even bother me anymore. My favorite ones are those which ignore the rules outright and are something like a homebrew half-vampire half-furry rainbow mage.

>and it didn't say anywhere that he couldn't raise the trait up to six.
The book doesn't describe what it means to raise the trait beyond five so you cannot raise it beyond five. What is so hard about this?

this isn't on roll 20, I almost always gm at the table, the old fashioned way.

he said that it doesn't mean it's forbiodden,

And yeah, I used rule 0 to get him to cut it down to five, but he sounded like he was being denied something unjustly.

Dark Ages and Elysium have rules for characters of higher generations. Maybe you just didn't know your shit.

Dark ages have the same 5 background dot limitation, just the 5 dots mean 7th generation instead of 8th as it is in modern setting, in essence shifted by one.
I know my stuff.
Also, it's a modern game, and I did specify V20 as the rulebook to use to create a young vampire, not a dark ages one. For his part he used the correct book.

Not maxing out generation is a trap option. The system isn't really designed around character optimization, but it really rewards specializing by penalizing higher level attributes and skills and allowing you to increase weak areas with a minimum of experience.

This is generally why nWoD is much better, rules wise, than oWoD, even though the nWoD setting sucks balls.

>"Ancient" 6-gen vampire get staked and buried during the Purge, while he's only few years old.
>Spent fifteen hundred years in torpor untill some dipshit graveropberes dug his coffin and accidentally spilled some blood on hims
> Have no idea how the modern day works, still scared shitless of the Inquisition.
>Assumes few secret identities to educate himself - one as a mortal, another as some amnesiac Kaitif neonate

Obvious flaring plot hook:
Tremere find out, its Diablerie time!

Basically, it makes more sense to go

charisma 1
manipulation 1
appearance 4

than it does to spread it around, giving 1 dot in each, because its cheaper to raise a stat from 1 to 2 than it is to increase from 2 to 4.

Well, as my GM put it, high gen have few hidden (massive) pennalties:
- Your sire is and old-school dick, you're probably on his permanent bloodbonds
- You're a tasty target for a diablerie
- Your peers WOULD betray you at the slightests show of weakness, your underlings are even less trustworthy, have fun interacting with your coterie.

Maxing out != going off the charts ;)

VtM rules have their problems. But, in the same vein as GURPS they can be used to create a plethora of characters, especially when you ignore the min maxing attempts and have players who know how to play to lose.
Some other time.

I agree its annoying, but munchkins are gunna munchkin. Part of the fun is gaming the system to create a more powerful character.

If the system is robust, it can handle a little bit of tomfoolery. If its fragile, like White Wolf tends to be, you get quite a bit of janteloven.

Yes, but XP gain is generally low if done right, so you'll be stuck with terrible stats for quite a long time.

I actually don't see the problem here. Your player misunderstood the rules due to incorrect information (the alternate character sheet he found). That happens.

How is this a headache for someone who supposedly has GMed for fifteen years?

>nwod setting sucks balls
kek

>Part of the fun is gaming the system to create a more powerful character.
I'm very glad I'm playing less and less with players who prioretise gaming the system.

Not that there's a wrong way of playing RPGs

wouldn't 6 dots only put him at 8th gen? Or is it not 13 minus gendots any more?

>Not that there's a wrong way of playing RPGs
Depends on the system. With VtM it's certainly the wrong way.

The real problem I have with White Wolf games is the general lack of direction. If you are new, you really don't know where to go or what to do, you are expecting someone to hand you your marching orders.

That is why I made a game based around ancilla working for an older, more experienced vampire.

lrn2math

Its the first time someone tried to prove me they are allowed to take a stat that doesn't fit the character sheet.

He chose to use an "elders character sheet" so that his stats would fit once he diabolizes someone older.

It's not much of a headache. I just forgot players like these still exist and it was a strange wake up call for me. Had to put it to words somehwere on the internet ;D

If tou're into that thing go play an all-Tremer coterie. Your bloodsucking vampire KGB curators would control your every step.

oh goddammit I forgot to count my thumb

0 dots - 13th generation
1 - 12th generation
2 - 11th
3 - 10th
4 - 9th (2 blood spend)
5 - 8th (3 blood spend)

I'd love to play VtM. Its been ages since I was a player. Are you on Rolz?

If the GM and the group are having fun, who am I to forbid them from playing vtm in the way they want? Go on, diabolize your way to Kaine in a three session game of vampire combat and discipline abuse.

yes, but not gonna GM anything via rolz or roll20 any time soon, sorry

did you also tell him that diablerie comes with serious repercussions ingame? as in: getting hunted down by vampires who actually do have six points in some stats?

The GM should always keep indecisive neonates on their toes, letting them realize that the world wants to use them, and the older vampires will play with their fates to achieve their own goals.

That is, even a game with aimless neonates could be fun if handled correctly.

Mentors and orders from above are always a possiblility.


In the end,
>If you are new, you really don't know where to go or what to do
applies to all RPG's, even for staples of DnD. Imagine if your GM had you create characters and then started a game in the tavern, and had no story for you to live through, no dungeon ready?

It's the same here. Players don't know what to do or where to go when the GM isn't doing his or her job.

I swear to god, if people had half as much game as they do when they are talking shit..

So sick of perma-DM

Yes.
He took merits that hide the diabelerie aura, and seemingly has a plan.

The fun part is their game revolves around an Archon, and everyone knew that before character creation. He knows enough about the setting, and I suspect his plan is to actually try and eat the Archon if he gets the chance.

The problem is he's not as smart as he believes himself to be, and I've seen players like him die after a failed idiotic plot that no neonate has a chance of pulling.

Rolz at least is text only, so people can't spend all day going "lol, my computer doesn't work, can we use skype?"

fool

"Those that deny the powers, get used by the powers. Those that serve the powers, become the powers! Beware the choice! Beware refusing it!"

Ask one of your players to try GM'ing a short story. Sometimes it works as a rest and there are usually players who want to try it out once.

Otherwise, you're out of luck

rolz is also semi-anonomous

You can't make an institution out of rebellion without capitulating to the system.

so just have the Archon fuck him over big time, all good fun

which clan is he playing?

Brujah

The archon is a Toreador Ancilla

But part of being a grownup is realizing that progress is not going to happen overnight. Why do you think neophytes are always in such a hurry?

to be honest, vampires have always really squicked me out.

Presence 3 the shit out of him early on.

Doesn't the Archon have a bunch of homies? I love that quote from Black Flagg, I heard that song in the original Tony Hawk game, not sure if it was a cover.

"We are paying cops for real, we are playing cops for pay"

Any particular reason WHY he hates her and wants her to die?

The thought of being fed on or drinking blood makes me a little sick to my stomach. Its my god damn body, its my blood, I wouldn't share it with a fly, why should I share it with you?

Likewise, the idea of blood tithing, having certain families and bloodlines bequeathed to elders, infuriates me. It reminds me of chattel slavery.

I don't know why I should care, I mean, vampires aren't real.

None.

He just wants to win.

I don't have any problem with that. I once played Tremere and infused two full magazines of bullets with my own blood. Pumped entire magazine into a lupine and undid the spell - fucker explodes as 20 bullets violently expanded into 3 gallons of blood. Other players were: "the fuck was that?" and I did "magic, motherfucker" complete with neck move

My question is how did he get so many free points?

If he has enough for 10 dots of backgrounds, you are already playing at super hero level. Even more so for those backgrounds.

Just for the generation at 5 dots alone he spent 8 freebie points and the resources and identity will be worth 4 total. How the shit did he get humanity 8 when it cost 1 point a piece to raise it?

you get seven dots of backgrounds for free.

isn't humanity the sum of your two highest virtues?

he spent 24 freebie points out of 15 I gave him not counting the points he took flaws for.

Yeah, it doesn't add up. I know.

5 dots are free, and a background dot is just 1 freebie a dot. Humanity cost him 4 more freebies. That's not a problem.

You've tapped in to the visceral revulsion that is why we originally found vampires as effective monsters, which we've mostly lost

Sum of Conscience and Self-Control. His was 6, he bought two more humanity dots via freebies.

He can only gain up to 7 freebie points from flaws, all of which have to be approved for and role played with the ST before even writing them on his sheet.

Also, you need to reread background cost. Several backgrounds are more expensive once you take them more than 2-3 times. Generation is one of these, costing 8 points to get 5 dots.

Your not going to believe this, but I was watching Mystery Science Theater 3000, and watching Sampson vs. the Vampire women, and I started having sort of a bad trip when I watched them feed or drink from the chalice.

I mean, can you believe it? A movie about a luchedore wrestling vampires gives me the creeps.

Wouldn't work as RAW nor as RAI.

I've just checked the rules for Principal Focus of Vitae Infusion and it definitely seems possible.

Think of it this way: you have a prime chance to teach a munchkin humility. And Vampire is perfect for that. It is the game where whatever the players do, there's always someone smarter, someone stronger and someone one step ahead of them.

You don't even need your Ancilla to screw them over. Since your player is a Brujah, he will likely be fighting oriented. So have a Ventrue, a Nosferatu or a Tremere fucking with them in ways they can't counter.

>Ventrue
>why is my bank card not working? why did they tow my car? how come the mortgage on my haven is default? why are the police harassing me?

>Nosferatu
>what is this weird white noise in the background when I make a phonecall? why is my computer acting weird? did I forget to turn my smart tv off? what was that sound?

>Tremere
>why does everyone seem to hate me? why can't I tell everyone how much of an asshole this guy is? why can't my ghoul enter that hospital? did that statue just move?

You get the idea.

>Generation is one of these, costing 8 points to get 5 dots.
Nope.
V20 has simple background rules.

just 1 dot per freebie.

Of course he's fight oriented.
5 Dex and 4 melee, and 3 celerity ;D

And I know the drill.

I know it has already been said, but why don't you look him square in the eyes and tell him "Generation only goes up to five dots, you stupid fuck. The rulebook doesn't say that you can't shoot lasers from your ass, that doesn't mean you can do it you god damn tripple baboon."

yeah, so 6 dots = 7th gen, which I swear to god is mentioned as "the highest a starting character should ever go" - 7th gen are a thing sometimes (especially as there's ways to temporarily boost generation iirc - they tend to cap out at 7th gen), and it means skimping on everything else to scavenge the points to get that to the point you basically have a "sired at low gen, then almost immediately spent the millenia in torpor or trapped somehow" even on the character sheet.

The "high humanity" in conjunction with that high gen is more of an issue - I'd honestly require a 7th gen starting vamp to have to pay for and then sacrifice say 3-4 points of humanity on top of the base point costs of that 6th dot to "pay for it".

And obviously increase the humanity cost for someone of such low generation.

Actually the thin blood "discipline creation" rules could allow a vampire to create a discipline about shooting very weak lasers from their ass.

It's a very narrative game, min maxing should have narrative, rather than simple mechanical, side effects for the "min" part of "min maxing"

Fuck this type of player, this is the kind that doesn't enjoy when his plans don't work or when he fucks up and instead complains, right?

There's nothing lorewise to actually support a log generation-low humanity correlation.

There are elders with high humanity as well, but yes, the stereotype for an elder is at about 4 Humanity.

He does work up quite a bit when his half-thought out schemes bite him in the ass, and take things a drop too personally, but he has been getting better. Haven't GM'ed him in the last couple years, so still unsure how that will go over in the game.

I said basically that, but in more polite turn of phrase. He was disappointed that I forbid it but didn't escalate.

This reminds me of retard who shitted in the last 3 gurps threads with "I dumped all my points in guns because rules don't forbid that hurr durr this system is broken"
Like, similarity is just uncanny.