Western fantasy vs. Eastern fantasy

I've been looking into eastern style fantasy lately and have begun to notice very common themes.
Mostly things relating to human emotions and the effect these have on nature. Monsters seem to usually be humans, animals, objects, or substances that have become polluted with human desire, regret, anger, guilt, or some other negative emotion. Monsters in this sense are more pitiable than their western counterparts. In this sense human nature and emotion is the detriment to social order.

In contrast Western fantasy tends to focus on human conquest of nature. Nature is depicted as openly hostile toward human existence and it is up to man to conquer, subjugate, or out right destroy the natural born monsters that would harm humanity.

My knowledge on both is limited however, mostly due to the fact I'm a westerner reading eastern text through a western lens and the fact that much of traditional western folklore has become heavily distorted because of Christian messages being added to stories that predate the death and resurrection of Christ.

I'd like to discuss common themes and aspects of western and eastern fantasy and folklore, more specifically how they differ and ways to differentiate them and make them unique and authentic. What happens when you have westerner try and write eastern fantasy and vice/versa.

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Jungian_archetypes
youtube.com/watch?v=Vh2je2c45Ig
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I feel like you can find just as much of one in the other; for example, dragons in Chinese mythology often represent natural disasters that pose a threat to human civilization, and the Japanese movie Princess Mononoke is essentially a founding myth of the Japanese people and its rife with civilization vs nature themes.

Like you said, a lot of the more allegoric nature of western myth was horrendously distorted by christianity, but even then it's often fairly easy to find interpretations that reconstruct the supposedly missing subtext (or point out that it remained there the whole time, as subtext is wont to do).

I don't want to sound like I'm refuting your whole premise, but I do think it's important, even while trying to point out differences, to acknowledge how much the two actually have in common.

Western stories tend to deal with good conquering and wiping out evil.
Eastern stories tend to be about balancing everything, light and dark need to be in balance and such. Eastern stories also tend to be cyclical and imply that everything will happen again in the future and that the same conflict or event occurred in the past where as western stories tend to have a definite end due to evil being destroyed.

No problem, I made this thread to discuss the subject, if what I said was wrong then I want to be corrected. I want my settings to be accurate and true to the sources they draw from.

That said I also want to see how western fantasy is suppose to be rather than how it is depicted in modern pop culture. From a modern perspective it seems that the only thing holding western fantasy together is the terminology. Elves, dwarfs, hobbits, wizards, fairies(faeries?), and other such terms seem to be the only really consistent thing tying them together. It just makes me wonder if this is because of Lord of the Rings or because that was how Anglo, Nordic and Germanic folklore was.

>the Japanese movie Princess Mononoke is essentially a founding myth of the Japanese people

No, it fucking isn't, are you high??

Aren't Dragons represented in every culture as symbols of adversity and tribulation that must be overcome?

You can't forget that TRPGs have also had an effect on how people see w-fantasy. Most people believe that orcs and goblins are two different things because of d&d, when orc is just another word for goblin.

West wins. Next contest.

If you consider "dragon" to mean anything vaguely reptilian or that flies on giant wings then yes.

Another thing to consider is how Light and Dark are treated by Eastern fantasy stuff.

Dark Souls is a good way as a Japanese made Western Fantasy. Eastern aspects bleed deep into it.

In Eastern philosophy, Yin and Yang, Dark and Light, is treated less as good and evil and more like calm and energy. Yin is dark and calm and feminine, subtle power while Yang is bright and energy and drive, its masculine and overt power.

In Dark Souls, the lord of light Gwyn was a Zeus like god king who essentially drove the early people into creating civilization where as the lord of dark essentially hid away, the Dark often is associated not only with peace, stillness and calm but also heavily with human emotion.

The fa/tg/uy who runs this site ( greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/ ) gave me so tips that I showed Veeky Forums. Pic related, but mind this is strictly chinese mythology.

Something I've found interesting is the concept of possession. In the west, possession is seen as a complete overhaul of control by a foreign spiritual entity. However, in eastern cultures possession is more like being drunk or in a rage. The person still has a level of control but has one or more emotions put on full blast making people act irrational. It also seems that possession can come in the form of a haunting. Sort of like having a ghost or spirit or demon follow you around all the time makes you possessed because it is using you as a vessel (vessel in the sense of kami living with in a rock or pool of water rather than actually animating and using it as a form of body).

>I'd like to discuss common themes and aspects of western and eastern fantasy and folklore,
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Jungian_archetypes

maybe I'm wrong but it always looked to me that eastern had a strong focus on societal duty weighting on the individual, while western had a more personal approach on the "wants despite the musts".

I am suddenly a fan of wuxia.

Except furry culture, which sees them as symbols of power to get rawed and/or eaten by.

And also that Light and Dark work best when in balance, rather than how Western stuff usually has that "balance" be ideally 100% Light.

Eastern is better. Just stop OP.

Only George Lucas and his shit team of writers call that balance, most western fiction call 100% light paradise or some other perfection word.

>most
Give 3.

"Balance" was the wrong choice of words, my bad. Goal, though. Generally, western stuff has 100% Light being an ideal rather than merely one path to the collapse of everything.

I know it's difficult to think in ways other than "is x > y?" but please make an effort in the future.

Give three examples of western fiction where they don't use "balance" to represent the light defeating the darkness? How about you name three that do, other than Star Wars, and I'll concede. Don't ask me to prove a negative faggot

Not him, but: Thomas the Tank Engine, Flatland, Fifty Shades of Grey

All of these refer to completely obliterating the darkness as "restoring balance"?

Shit, my bad, I responded to the wrong comment. Those are 3 examples where they don't use "balance" in that manner.

>Eastern fantasy is about balance, Western fantasy is about destroying evil

Holy fuck. This is what happens when people that have never read any western fantasy outside wikipedia summaries try to compare cultures.

You opinionated idiots ever read Dunsany? George McDonald?

The greatest folklorists and fiction writers have been from the West user.

How about contributing to the discussion rather than sperging out?

>Anons claim Eastern fantasy is about balance while Western fantasy is about destroying evil

>I tell them to actually read Western fantasy

I think I contributed.

Well for one i wouldn't make a distinction between Far eastern myths and pre-Christian European myths.

One example of this is the image of dragons.
Prior to Christianity they were fully depicted as serpentine creatures only deviating from their Chinese cousins by the possibility of those with multiple heads appearing but those were ofted depicted as monsters to be subdued.

Europe and the far East share much of their culture because a big part of both of their populations originated from central Asia.

The only real differences stem from religeous influences , mainly Christianity and Budhism.

Let's compare a few things that despite carrying a different name are basically the same shit:


>Wizard/Witch = Xiuzhe - training in mystical powers by learning from old sages, esotheric herb medicine and fighting or making deals with demons.

>Demons, ghosts and monstrous beasts = Yao - beings with supernatural powers often destructive in nature but can be dealt with through either violence, contract or submission.


Etc.

Someone might say that these similarities are very vague but both have far more in common compared to the nearby semitic cultures of the middle east and northern Africa.

Christianity simply had such a big influence on European culture.
However traces of pre-European culture could always be found through carfeull reasearch.
I'll give an example.

In Christian Slavic culture Satan is often depicted as a Dragon but his main role is as a trial master granting wishes or powers to those who undertake his judgement.
He eats the hearts and souls of those with impure hearts and rewards the just.

Now the few records we have on pre-Christian dragons in Slavic myth also show them in two varieties.
A purely destructive monster in the vein of multy-headed hydras.
Or again as the outright Just and Good trial master.

Now if you focus on the second part you'll notice that it's far more similar to east Asian depictions of Dragons.

Cont.

Nah, Oriental Dragons are usually seen as celestial beings, sometimes even beings worth of worship.

This might be Slavs just being more Asian than European but i'll put my money on one more comonality that European Serpentine dragons have with their far eastern counterparts.

And that is their eternal connection with water.

Jormungadr?
Lives in the sea under the roots of the world tree.

Veleš?
Has to live in underground waters after being smote out of the sky by Perun or Svarog.

Hydra?
Beaten back into the sea.

Etc.

We are discussing common themes just because two authors wrote something outside of the norm doesn't mean all traditional conventions no longer exist. That's like saying all western fantasy don't have elves because a few westerners wrote fantasy setting that don't have elves. Elves are still prevalent enough in the genre that they could be considered a common trend. Stop being a pretentious retard.

In defense of Lucas, the original trilogy seems to imply the "Dark Side" or the force is an unnatural application of it, similar to necromancy is to magic in most fantasy settings. As it is a corruption of the force, the natural and balanced state of things would be to not have Dark Side users at all, naturally.
The EU kind of muddies this facet up.

Name me five western authors you would say were the most important in creating western fantasy. Just five. And tell me how they all talk about light conquering darkness.

Authors? I couldn't say which would be the most important especially because most of the ground setting works for western fantasy were myths and oral traditions passed down for thousands of years. The stories of Theseus and Perseus from Roman myth, Beowulf, the epic of Gilgamesh, the stories of Odin fighting the frost Giants, all of these heavily influenced and were reflective of western culture. These stories, which are mostly about strong dudes punching monsters to death, are a bases for most western fantasy setting.

Does this mean all western fiction is going to go by these conventions, no and I wouldn't want it to. Diversity in storytelling is good but you can't ignore thousands of years worth of writing and orally passed stories just because some guys in the 20th century wrote some shit that was about balancing light and dark.

Name 25 books, 13 movies and a video game that are influential to creating what we consider to be western fantasy that deal with duality and the cyclical nature of existence.

Hello, I am the guy that run the Great Ming Military blog. I chanced upon this thread by Googling up my own blog, and since this is a topic I am interested in, I guess I will write something, too.

One of the differences I observed between Western & Eastern fantasy is their respective approach to martial pursuit, particularly swordsmanship...or, to put it more simply, the concept of "Kensei".

In Western works, martial pursuit is typically characterized by "gaining". Character trained really hard and become more skilled, more experienced, acquiring stats, feats, abilities, etc (if it is a RPG), and defeating more and more powerful adversaries. At some point, he may or may not acquire a Infinity+1 sword, thus gaining even more power.

While phrases like "the sword is an extension of your arm/body" get thrown around quite often, in general martial skill is treated as a useful tool to overcome challenges in Western fantasy. Thus characters tend to be known by their other position/identity/achievement, such as a king/hero/lord/general/champion/adventurer/dragon slayer, with their skill in swordsmanship added to the second line of their introduction.

>Duality and the cyclical nature of existence

You are aware that's been a theme in western philosophy for a long time right?
>Books
Gods of Pegana
The Shadow out of Time
The Phoenix on the Sword
The Once and Future King
The Time Machine
Foundation (and how!)
Dune
Lilith
The Sword of Welleran
The Day Boy and the Night Girl
The King of Elfland's Daughter
The Story of the Amulet
The Phoenix and the Carpet
The Deathbird
The Last Unicorn
The Last Battle
Two Hearts
Kalevala
Ubik
Maze of Death
VALIS
Slaughterhouse Five
The Neverending Story
The Dark Tower
The War for the Oaks

>Video Game
Ultima

>Movies
I don't watch a lot of movies.

>Stepping back from the modern genre of fantasy to defend your shitty preconceived notions.
>Eastern Mythology didn't have heroes fighting monsters. They were like one with nature and shit.

youtube.com/watch?v=Vh2je2c45Ig

Nigga name five eastern stories about balancing "light and darkness' and god help you if you name a JRPG.

You think Confucianism is about "balance"? Do you think Hinduism is about "balance?" They're fucking proscriptive ideologies you dumb cunt.

"Balancing light and dark" in JRPGs has less to do with real Eastern ideology and culture and more to do with JRPGs taking everything they know out of early D&D.

So this red cloak wearing motherfucker? This is Ed Greenwood's waifu, and he like other red cloak magicians are tasked with keeping a balance between good and evil as a "true good". The theory goes that should good ever truly triumph over evil they'll turn into the Spanish Inquisition or something, don't think too much about it.

But have you ever wondered why SMT focuses so much on balancing between law and chaos (basically what good and evil were in old D&D) or why the red mage of Final Fantasy knows spells from the White and Black mages?

This nigger right here.

That's not ever the case.
Spanish Sierpes are cthonic numens, often relationed with Fire and guarding treasure, shapeshifting and testers. They are fat and big snakes, males being the ones than use fire. Sugaar, one of the most well know of them, is the fuck budy of the most important Basque goddes, Mary (the lady), another fire related numen. He also got Frisky with an scot princess and had a son , Jaun Zuria (The White Lord), the first Vizcayan great lord. This one is his simbol, related to the Lauburu, than represents the four linages of basque in the south part of the Pyrenees (there are seven basque lineage, each one descending from the sons of Aitor, the four are in the Spanish side, the other three in the French part).

>Eastern Mythology didn't have heroes fighting monsters. They were like one with nature and shit

No one but you said this tard, quite making up argument you can defeat and actually discuss the topic. Also when did I ever say that we were discussing modern fantasy writings? I want to talk about western and eastern fantasy as a whole, you ask what the most important work for defining western fantasy were and I gave you what I felt were the best examples. Those examples are based on my opinions so feel free to disagree and say what you feel are the most important works for western style fantasy, but no, you would rather green text and shit post right?

>Ultima
Which one, there are like nine of those games do you mean Ultima 1 the game were you use a hovercraft and laser pistol to kill the DARK wizard and stop him from taking over the world?

>It just makes me wonder if this is because of Lord of the Rings
It's because of D&D more than anything, which in turn used (most of) them because of LotR, but the common depiction of all those races clearly take their ques from Gygax rather than Tolkien.

In Norse myth, where Tolkien borrowed most of his racial names from, there is no real distinction between magical races. Their all shapeshifters and often closely related to creatures of, supposedly, entirely different races. They're treated more like tribes than actual races.

Eastern works often took a different approach to martial pursuit, a more ..."philosophical" one. Martial pursuit is often treated as as an "end in itself", instead of a "means to an end".

A character in Eastern works often start out much like his/her Western counterpart, training and gaining, eventually acquiring the ultimate sword (sometimes) and mastery in skill.

However it is at this point Eastern & Western works start to differ, because many characters in Eastern Work will not be satisfied with "mere" mastery, and wish to pursue the unknown beyond the threshold of "master".

Thus in their single-minded pursuit of the path beyond, they begin to "let go". Worldly possessions are usually the first to go because they interfere with the pursuit too much, but the characters will gradually let go of other things too: loved ones, the ultimate weapon, martial skill they've worked their whole life to train, etc. By doing so they go beyond the level of mortals, becoming...something more.

It does not end here. Eventually the character will even let go of their sword, then the CONCEPT of sword. They become truly FORMLESS but formlessness indicates there's still SOMETHING there, so they let those go as well: thought, mind, heart, their very life, soul, self, until there's nothing left to let go.

If there's anything that remotely resemble an end goal in Eastern work's martial pursuit, then this is it: TRUE NOTHINGNESS.

I know this can be a little hard to grasp, and sounds like something coming straight out of Buddhism (it is), but I can assure you that this thinking permeates many (if not most) Eastern fantasy/Wuxia works, and even some serious martial arts manual (such as Mushashi's Book of Five Rings).

>Eastern Mythology didn't have heroes fighting monsters. They were like one with nature and shit.
Umm no, how many demons did Sun Wukong beat up again?

Balancing Good and Evil is actually the primary motivation of Mordenkainen from Greyhawk, Gary Gygax's favorite Wizard NPC, not Elminster.

An important thing to know about demons in the East.

Demons are denizens of the underworld and they exist to serve the goal of the Demon King, which is to oppose heaven and all the gods and immortals in heaven. That's their JOB. They do this because it is what they were meant to do. HOWEVER....a demon can prostrate itself before certain extraordinarily powerful near-buddha-level beings (The Four Lords of the Heavenly Directions for example) and dedicate themselves to Heaven's ewayb and the Tao, and start on their way to becoming human, and from humanity move towards enlightenment (fully one third of the 36 heavenly Generals are actually reformed demons).

Depend on what you read, the distinction between Demon (妖) and Gods & Immortals (神仙) in Chinese mythology is more or less like a "depend on which side you are on"...i.e. the side that does not agree with the authority (heavenly court) is demon.

Underworld and its denizens are...entirely different entity.

And "reform" sometimes only mean "change your boss/job description" instead of things like “redemption”.

aye many old fans hate the "light side" of the force thingy in the OT there is the force and its darkside , the darkside is the unbalance, corruption