Is imperial guard viable in 8th edition ?

One more thing: you're going to go second. Just accept it. Unless you've got half your army stuffed into a stormlord you're going to have more units than your opponent. Deploy your chaff units first, try to delay putting down your firepower units until you know where they'll be out of sight or at least obscured. Use one of your many command points to re-roll the die to seize and recite a litany or something.

Cool

Am I the only one who thinks the Russ has gotten killier in 8th?

Used to be anything shooting pie plates weren't worth their points because there was nothing worth while for them to shoot at.

Killier VS other vehicles and monsters? Yes (depending on Cannon)

Killier VS the footsloggers they used to pie plate to death? No.

And the latter reason is why some grogards will declare Russes are now trash. They haven't figured that the Russ's role has changed to shoot other hardened enemies now.

For now, yes I'd say they are fairly strong. People overstate how strong certain infantry builds are, but they are definitely good this edition.

Scions
Vets
Bullgryn
Rough Riders
Scout Sentinels
Basilsiks
Creed, Yarrick, Harker, Straken
Heavy Weapon Squads
Manticores
Punisher
Taruox Prime with Gatling
Demolisher against single wound targets
Conscripts
Commissars
Infantry squads
Cheap power weapons and plasma

That's everything that's really strong this edition. Orders are strong too. Keep in mind, codices for armies will be released later, so we may see a power decrease vs other armies. Right now, indexes only, Guard are up there.

Which is, you know, what tanks are *SUPPOSED* to be doing?

I'm okay losing my 4+ save on my Vets. They got a lot more fire power now. Before I'd just take 2 special weapons to shoot out the top hatch. Now I put in 3 special, 1 heavy flamer and 1 heavy weapon. Plasma death squads are also cheaper.

But I get it, if you have carapace models, you want the 4+ save. But hey, at least if you take a squad of 10 Scions, your guns are -2 AP and you can put an Astropath + Platoon Commander in the Chimera with you to get a 3+ armor save, ignore cover on a unit from the Astropath and you get orders from the Commander.

Yeah, but I have to re-write my Only War regiment and re-kajigger the regimental kit and Hellguns are absurdly expensive.

being able to actually use your sponsons is a welcome change

Nobody I knew ever fielded mass blobs, at most one guy had lots of smaller units of daemonettes spread out, the rest was tanks and monstrous creatures for the most part. The basilisks I had also seemed largely useless point sinks 90% of the time.

Only time they seemed usefull was for tearing apart huge blobs of orks that one guy fielded once before he shelved his army.

Why do you have to re-write it if you're only doing a count as? Plus you don't have to count them as anything. Veterans with the Elite based detachment is still strong.

Vets don't get carapace anymore. So you can't do mechanized grenadiers like before so to get the same effect you need to use scions, but they cost more.

You're right. I just really hate the fucking nu-fluff grimderpery about the Stormtroopers and that's not particularly fair or even necessarily accurate (my skulgun is that there are two tiers of Scholae, and the ones the MT book describes is the system for people just above the "Servitor-bait" level).

As nice as the plastic kit is, they never should have become a separate codex, and they certainly should have been gimderped like that.

What's that military axiom? Infantry wins battles, artillery wins wars.

Quick question. If I shoot a plasma cannon on supercharge with a sentinel and I roll a 1, does that mean regardless of wounds count that sentinel is going down?

Likewise with Leman Russ executioner?

Lore-wise I agree. I do, however, prefer their new aesthetic. I know many don't. But I think their new look makes them look old but new but not but sci-fi all at the same time the way 40k is. The old storm troopers looked like generic elite sci-fi soldiers.

Yes to Sentinel, no to Executioner. Russes have a rule where it only loses 6 wounds when you roll a 1.

Well the kit isn't going anywhere and the separate codex is "gone" and I doubt they will make a new one, so that's a step.

I think I'll use them as a basis for converting my vostroyan vets, given they are pretty gothic already.

By modern real life tank standards, yes.

But grognards are grognards who hate change, and so Leman Russes no longer being the infantry killers they once were is unacceptable to them.

Sweet sassy molassy. That's some dangerous stuff. I wonder how the stormblade will fare.

Awesome

I've been gone from 40k for a while. What did the fluff do to the stormyroopers.

I agree, hate the lore, but I also like the models a lot. I always fluff my own troopers as just elite soldiers trained to deepstrike in and stuff like that.

As for their own codex before, they only did that because they were supposed to be an allied force for the rest of the Imperium, not a stand alone army.
It's dangerous but there are work arounds. Executioners can get Tank orders to re-roll 1s. Sentinels have the tag so you can have Harker nearby if you label your guys . Yarrick also gives re-rolls of 1 to all nearby Guard units.

It made the Progenia, graduates of the schools erected for the children of those fallen in loyal service to the Holy Throne into braindead Kriegers.

>viable

They are going to be one of the their 0 tournament topping armies for tryhards.

That's definitely overstated. Guard will be good, but not top tier, nor will they win tournaments. They will be mid-high tier at best, especially after the codex comes out.

Fuck.

Why can't Stormtroopers just be Guardsmen with a little more training, experience, gear, and marksmanship? I know that's what vets already are but Stormtroopers can be a more formalized cadre in the fluff (whereas vets are more informal and shuffled around the regiment as needed), and each Stormtroopers regiment can be run differently as according to whoever they are attached to.

It really should be that easy.

Remove ratling.

That's what I liked about vet grenadiers. They really made the "best of the regiment" kinda soldiers. I always fielded my old Kasrkin minis as vet grenadiers instead of storm troopers.

Would love to see plastic vostroyans with pic related as their carapace sporting vet grenadiers.

LMR used to win me games, it worked great against anything that wasnt a flyer or a monster. Vanquisher Pask was pretty good aswell.

I current edition LMRs are shit because you wont be hitting anything you roll around 3 shots on average and then you have to roll hit with the said shots. You dont wound most stuff with 2s anymore and pretty much anything can get a save against the battlecannon. In 7th i could wipe out a marine squad with a single hit, now its literally impossible to get more than 6 wounds in a horde with BC.

Its also worth noticing that all twin-linked guns got double the amount of shots, except exterminator.

RRs got better so there would be more than 50 people in the world who play them, however they still die to overwatch.

>le grognards meme

The hardened targets get wounded on 3's at best and they usually get a save, you also need to roll to hit whereas in 7th you needed a scratch on the big targets base. LMR is trash now. Punisher is ok and Demolisher too.

Explain how are these units good. Taurox Prime with gatling and Manticores combined with master of ordnance I get but others seem just as shit or shittier than before.

Also Vendettas gone, lel.

When you fire a tank round into a blob of 30 dudes, it probably kills more than 4. Funny how people go from "this is how it works in real life" to "its just a game" faster than you can say cuck. Besides LMR was ok anti-tank in previous editions due BC being ordnance weapon.

You're an idiot. Everything you say is disregarded.

>all twin-linked guns got double the amount of shots, except exterminator

It's even more expensive than the battle cannon now.

Making the most iconic vehicle in IG (and which most guard players own) into a piece of shit is a legit reason to be mad. In non-tourney games you can always do counts-as, but some players might be autistic about that too.

Thanks GW(c)

And how many 8th edition games have you played with an LMR to actually test all this conjecture?

Battle Cannon is still pretty decent for single targets and for its long range. Mostly people own a Demolisher too and that's really good against single targets. My personal preference is Demolisher, Punisher and Eradicator as the top 3.

It's not shit though

>pic related
Look more like Valhallans to me.

Infantry wins firefights, tanks win battles (not anymore though !), artillery wins wars.

What says is correct. The LRBT isn't shit in 8E, the role has been realigned (and done so in a way that fits both with actual-reality and with what we see in fluff, e.g. the tank battles in Necropolis or the smaller scale ones in Honor Guard).

I'm sorry that has to buy an Exterminator turret, but how does he not already have one?

Here's my bros 1000 point tank IG regiment
He's won all three of the eight edition games he's played

He's won two against my chaos
And he's won once against an infantry heavy tau list with a ghostkeel and two stealth suit teams

From everything I've seen the leman Russ has pretty much stayed the same, it's main gun is a bit weaker but the sponsons, survivability, and speed improvements really help.

Lack of old AP3 is one of the drawbacks of battle cannon. Marines now get 5+ save against it. Even the exterminator without twinlinkedness is better in someways when it comes to killing vehicles. Guaranteed 2 wounds per failed save, guaranteed 4 shots.

Yeah I probably won't be using it, but it's got good range still. I will stick to mostly Eradicator instead.

The same could be said of many weapons. A lot of them got nerfs in the AP department, in order to give a lot of units in several armies a chance at an armor save. Like bolters no longer laughing at Guardsman armor.

>They got a lot more fire power now. Before I'd just take 2 special weapons to shoot out the top hatch. Now I put in 3 special, 1 heavy flamer and 1 heavy weapon.

But wasn't it like that since 5th

I mean, they have always had heavy weapon plus 3 specials. The difference now is that you get a heavy flamer in addition to 3 specials and 1 heavy weapon.

It was just never worth taking more than 3 special weapons in 7th. Often times it was only worth taking 2 special weapons to fire out the hatch. Now that you get a bonus heavy flamer and that shooting heavy weapons on the move is only -1 BS, heavy weapons are now worth taking too because Vets would be BS4+ on the move with a heavy.

Not to mention you can target different units now. It makes Vets a lot more versitle because they can bring Meltas that hit a tank hard, but then use the heavy flamer and a heavy bolter to blast away at nearby infantry.

I feel the biggest change to vets is how they handled combat phase now, iirc you can fall back now, so taking multiple vets and deploying them in a structure won't mean that anything that gets close enough to charge them will kill them all one by one with no damage at all while also being immune to your shooting phase because "lol, I'm scared of hitting cannon fodder".

Blobs got better, vehicles got worse.

Take heavy weapons teams and sure up your morale.

Take what I say with salt, I have only played two matches with guard as I have mostly been playing with my Tyranids and Admech armies.

Guard play differently than before. The bigger the force you take the better your rewards with them will be. As in taking guard as allies or supplements to other forces don't seem like a good idea to me. At least yet. Take tank commanders and just about every version of it you take, will be good, but also a giant target, get it some cover (AGEIS LINE!) and a primaris psyker to give it a bonus of 2 extra armor; meaning if shot with a Laz Cannon it will still have a 4+ armor save.

Take lots of troops, but don't take stock troops, you know all those grenade lauchers and flamers that you never use? Use them. 10 guardsmen are only 40 pts, give them autocannons, heavy bolters or mortors with special weapons and a vox caster. And marvel at the amount of firepower they can dish out, even without orders. **Personal opionin, only put Laz cannons in unupgraded or minimally upgraded regular squads (or vets if you really want that 3+ to hit, but orders help with this problem). Laz cannons draw fire, let the mooks be your meatshields.

Take heavy weapon teams. They die easy. But they dish out so much damage. I like mortor teams because they cost only like 45 pts and throw out 3d6 S4 shots each turn. Better still, your opponets will hesitate to shoot them when they have much more annoying and hard hitting targets to deal with like your Leman Russes or Basilisks.

Veterans are glass cannons, they make Skitarri special weapon teams blush. A veteran squad can take 3 plasma guns at 7pts each. Yeah...

I don't know how good their artillery is, because it has blown up first turn for all my games...

I love and hate Chimeras. I hate them because they are too fucking expensive, I love them because they are better than most other factions tanks.

Take psykers. Hope this is helpful.

Fellow guard players, can I get an opinion on modeling?

I want a Vulture but I think the model for it is hot garbage. It's an agile craft known for tight turns and nimble flight but the one that FW actually put out is literally an engine with wings strapped to it.

What if I did something like this? I'd put the intake ducts back on there and use the punisher cannons from a LR demolisher kit. Probably make the ammo drums out of the cylinders from multiple rocket pods.

Thoughts? Also do you think the new rules for the punisher will five like the punisher on the Taurox (doubled shots instead of twin linking)? If true it would make the punisher the single most dakkatastic vehicle in 40k.

Punisher is the exact same. 20shots, S5 no AP same range. Oddly enough, due to its lack of AP it won't be as effective as it was in 7th, especially if you gave it to pask for those sweet rends.

I intend to use it later tonight as as Pask with 3 hvy bolters, hvy stubbor and a Hunter Killer. Just to see how much dice throwing it can pull off on lighter targets.

Seems fine to me. The Vulture and Valkyrie are the same size.

As plenty of people are noting Russes seem to be middling quality units for there points. The mechanics for how many hits they will generate mean their 4+ and degrading with damage BS hurts them, a lot.

They are going to statistically take a lot of fire power to remove from the board though now and their damage can be tailored a bit.

Tanks Commanders help mitigate the BS issue, both for their own vehicle with a base 3+ and others with the reroll 1s order. This easy access auto pass reroll means Overcharging plasma weapons can be done pretty indiscriminately. Annoyingly tank commanders don't appear to be able to order themselves or other Commanders preventing them from toting Plasma themselves without another source of rerolls. You can either solve this with Pask, who can order other commanders, or Yarrick who has a reroll 1 aura for all AM units. If you're going to take a tank commander at all, Pask's 2+ BS and trivial cost difference make him pretty much an auto-include.

Lascannons actually make a degree of sense now on commanders or Pask who can reliably hit with them and take advantage of their much boosted damage.

The vanquisher still looks like a trap. With only 1 shot its damage isn't high enough to overtake the multiple hits from other weapons.

The demolisher trades a lot of range for a weapon that's only better against large targets (T 8+, or units consisting of more than 5 multiwound models). Maybe bring one if you face other tanks/mcs, or large squads of Kastalens. Cost is an issue.

The executioner goes from risky trade off to strictly better than the battle cannon against all targets if you have a reroll. I imagine this or just leaving the default cannon depending on that reroll are probably the most functional choices.

Sponsons are more interesting depending on what your intended target for the tank is, Heavy bolters or plasma both have a place and 24/12 inch Melta can actually pay out against tanks and MCs

It's less effective in some ways, but more effective in 8th due to how many wounds it can cause vs other weapons. In terms of hordes, it's the best Russ. It's also not bad against single targets. Other Russes are good vs single targets but notably worse against hordes. That's why it's considered pretty strong now.

However, Taurox Prime is almost better for the point cost difference because even though it's only 31 S4 shots vs 29 S5 and 3 S4, the Taurox Prime with all that costs 100 vs the Punisher's 180. 200 for 2 Taurox Primes vs 180 for 1 Punisher basically.

>The executioner goes from risky trade off to strictly better than the battle cannon against all targets if you have a reroll. I imagine this or just leaving the default cannon depending on that reroll are probably the most functional choices.

I'm afraid the Executioner being a better all-rounder than the Battle Cannon is a meme that got started up somehow.

It's the other way around and somebody did the math to prove it:
3plusplus.net/2017/06/astra-militarum-tank-weapons-40k-8th-ed/

Pack is still good in a punisher. You'll hit with damn near all of the shots.

I think with the re rolls he might be excellent in an all plasma Leman Russ. Potential 12 st8 shots ap-3 at 2 damage is pretty rough on heavy infantry and medium vehicles.

Pask can't give orders to himself

>They are going to statistically take a lot of fire power to remove from the board though now and their damage can be tailored a bit.
That's really the strongest part about Russes.
>Pask's 2+ BS and trivial cost difference make him pretty much an auto-include.
Agreed, 10 points for all that? That's Ridiculous. Honestly, Tank Commanders should be cheaper and keep Pask the same.
>Maybe bring one if you face other tanks/mcs, or large squads of Kastalens. Cost is an issue.
Demolisher is expensive, but the potential damage it does is ridiculous. Every bat rep and story has Demolishers doing tons of single target damage.
>The executioner goes from risky trade off to strictly better than the battle cannon against all targets if you have a reroll. I imagine this or just leaving the default cannon depending on that reroll are probably the most functional choices.
I regret gluing my second Punisher. I kind of want to try the Executioner this time around. Not sure if I can pry it open.
I'm not sure if it's better, but I enjoy the -3 AP and consistent D2 with the overcharge. I also tend to use Harker for my Heavy Weapon Squads, so I can just make the Executioner a Catachan tank.
I've heard yes he can and no he can't. I think we might need to wait for a FAQ on that unless you have proof that he can't give it to himself.

>3plusplus.net/2017/06/astra-militarum-tank-weapons-40k-8th-ed/

Is it unclear I meant that in reference to overcharging it (hence the reroll caveat)? The Overcharged Executioner on the chart you linked is equal or better against all targets (why wouldn't it be? Its same S, better AP, Functionally same damage 1d3 averages 2).

My bad. I got "Exterminator" and "Executioner" mixed up.

Lol. His orders are "gunner kill on sight!".

Who's gunners if not his tanks? Other tanks gunners? Lol. Full throttle? To everyone else except his crew?

The wording is obvious.

Too damn many similar names.

Anyone heard any word if the Annihilator variant is getting an update from Forgeworld? Pask with 2 lascannons he can move and shoot at full BS and another at -1 on the hull actually looks like decent antitank on paper.

I'm afraid the actual wording of how the rules are supposed to work actually DOES SPECIFY OTHER TANKS.

Yes I know it's fluffy that a tank commander orders his gunner to do better, but fluff is not rules.

Also, Pask can give orders to two different tanks. If he couldn't order somebody else's gunner to do better, then why give him the ability to issue orders to two different tanks?

Could be cool! I was thinking the same thing, even without pask. Annihilator would be an excellent variant whereas before it was kind of meh. Makes the vanquished look moot.

There's definitely some ambiguity for Pask ordering himself. Other Tank Commanders explicitly cannot order other Characters which all Tank commanders are. Pask's Knight Commander rule Specifies he can order OTHER characters.

Until there's a FAQ be prepared for people to not agree with you both on specific wording, and intent considering other commanders can't.

a mortar team is only 27 no 45, insane.

For anyone considering heavy bolters or missile launchers: don't.

Marines take those. Guardsmen take Autocannons. They're not as good against certain specific targets as HBs or MLs but they're not bad against anything, and you can take them in numbers because HWTs are cheap as dirt now.

Swoosh is bad. Thupthup is standard on every vehicle in your motor pool. Pom-pom a best.

Jesus you're right, it is 27pts!!!

Also, I just read Knight Commander Pask Data Sheet, he can indeed give orders to himself, there is no restriction in his orders saying he cannot, unlike the Tank commander which explicitly forbids so. This is both supported by the Keywords the ability rely on as well as core rules where it states all auras are granted to characters unless stated otherwise.

Whether this is intentional or not, remains to be seen, but rules as written its quite clear.

Personally i think it makes sense for Pask. It basically means he gets twin-linking, since he's already BS 2+.

It's not broken on him because the Russ isn't that great offensively, and tank ace though he might be he doesn't reroll wounds or shot count.

I go with 100 conscripts with commissar and priest, plus HTW spam backed by company commanders and Yarrik

Autocannons cost almost twice as much as a heavy bolter for a SLIGHTLY improved performance against SPECIFIC targets. Yes, you can argue that it's only 7 more points over an HB, but that can add up quickly.

Pask can only give orders to "other cadian leman russ characters." He can't use it on himself.

That's fine.

What's your standard infantry squad loadout looking like? I was planning to use plasma guns and heavy bolters. For only 55 points you get volume of fire, good AP and multiple damage from overcharges.

Yeah, the fire and smoke make the most sense and the rest is the utility. I think I'll be taking Pask pretty much every game.

Conscripts are an amazing unit, not because of the horde people keep ranting about but because they are fanastic screening unit and like in your example, with a commisar and priest, they can hold their own in nearly every circumstance, due to the character buffs and sheer wounds.

>The Punisher became non-viable, versus what it was (Pasknisher).

What the fuck, Punisher is better than most guns for LMR. Vanquisher is complete trash now, as is battle cannon.

Bare lasgun minimum.

I dig autocannons too. Played an 8th game against tau. They're great against tau. Get the 2+ to wound against fire warriors instead of 3+ With heavy bolter and get a 3+ to wound against crisis suits instead of 4+ with the heavy bolter. Not to mention autocannon 2 damage against crisis suits combined with the 3+ to wound makes them ideal. That's not factoring in the range component either.

Against Tau, I'll stick with my AC spam.

I wouldnt sink points in arming HWT with something so expensive when you can cover all your autocannon needs by strapping a pair to every taurox prime you take, more resilient, the can still fire independently of the gatling and because of poor wording or intentionally you can always take as much as you can because the designated transports slots only need another choice no matter what to take them, even another vehicle

feeling sticking to my plas-ML. but might go lasplas since they're the same cost.

>slightly

No. It's better against everything tougher than an MEQ unit, and at several points is nearly twice as good.

It's also stylish as fuck.

Battle cannon is good. Vanquisher ain't great. I expect FWs annihilator to be a better anti tank bet.

I'm going to contest that claim. I'll quote the rule. Knight Comander pask can issue orders to a friendly "Keywords here: Cadian Leman Russ :End keywords here" [...] "To issue a Tank order, pick a target "Keyword here: Leman Russ :End keywords here" within 6" of Knight Comander pask and choose which order [...] so on and the like.

Since Pask has ALL the required keywords and due to the core rules saying ALL character may benfit from their abilites unless specifically stated otherwise, he can indeed order himself or two other tanks. I must ask to see your quoting of rules which either overrides the corerules or overrides his datasheet to say he cannot order himself.

I think you're overcompensating for something :^)

It should be noted that Tank Commanders cannot order themselves. As they are explicitly forbidden from doing so in their keywords. Which is what I think most people are confusing.

Hate that chart (I work in excel all the time and there's a much clearer way of doing it) but yeah. Autocannons are as good or better against most things. I just imagine a crap ton of 40mm Bofors cannons. Yes very aesthetic indeed.

And I think you really want Space Marines if you love their guns so much.

I for one have no need of genetic augmentation or power armour to do my job. And I certainly don't need their weapons.

missile launcher at +5 points is better than autcannon at everything except T4.

The only people I've ever heard in my life say that, jokingly or seriously, about firearms in general, but also vehicles too, are the ones that would actually need to compensate, either for genital size, ego, or a bizarre sense of control or achievement.

Nothing against you, it's just something that I've noticed. It's like when an associate or friend learns that I own a .338 rifle (badger ordnance m2013 action in an AI ATAICS Chassis for your /k/ guys out there). They assume I'm compensating for something. Nope, I do 1000 yard competitions regularly and that's basically my dream gun that I saved up for thankyouverymuch.