4th Edition Dungeons and Dragons

I've played a decent amount in Eberron, and a little in Dark Sun, so I second this.

>4E works best as a tactical combat simulator/dungeon crawler so don't design some complex game of political intrigue.

Ignore this guy. You can do the non-combat stuff in 4E just as well as other editions. First Eberron campaign I played in had tons of political intrigue and non-combat sessions.

That doesn't speak highly of 4e so much as it speaks harshly of other D&D editions

Which is fair, D&D is not an RPG tradition built around politicking, it's built around stabbing orcs and taking their stuff

Only the older editions were built around combat. They've expanded. And to be fair, most rpgs these days have similar focuses.

Ehhh... not really, sure they've expanded, but the focus is still certainly combat

>Only older editions were built around combat
Depends on the edition. Anything TSR-era generally had quicker advancement through attaining treasure rather than slaying monsters. 3e is when they started to shift focus to combat and slaying monsters as the main source of progression.

I'm kind of curious if porting over the Escalation Die from 13th Age would help speed up combats.

Probably not significantly, 4-5 turns is the max anyway, it'd mean maybe 1-2 less miss, that's like half an average enemy.

>Scrap skill challenges

Not entirely. The Skill Challenge is honestly one of the better ways to do a non-combat encounter but you shouldn't go "Alright, folks, this is a SKILL CHALLENGE!" - rather, you should get it running without them noticing. Don't tell them about it, just go with it.

>A Guard protects the entrance to the castle "Halt, only those the king has invited may enter"
> Cool, the rogue tries to persuade him to let us pass with a bribe. *rolls diplomacy*
>He takes the bribe and is happy with it, he still isn't persuaded enough though and continues to stand there staring at you.
>Err, okay, the barbarian tells him if he doesn't let us pass we will inform his captain he takes bribes. *rolls intimidate*
>The guard grows angry at you "You cannot intimidate a member of the kings guard lightly" . He's still standing there though waiting.
>Err okay, the bard tells him we are long distant relations of the king and have an important meeting with him *rolls bluff*
>He believes you, the rest of the party feels he will be easier to persuade now. He's still standing there though.
>Err..okay... the ranger does a really cool backflip to show him how skilled we are...at...adventuring or something.
>He's really impressed by your backflip, but he's still standing there. You might have to impress him a little bit more.
>Fuck it we walk away.
>He shouts out to the rest of the guards and attacks, roll initiative.

Yeah skill challenges were great.

>I'm trying to hammer this nail in with this screwdriver
>but it isn't working!
>this is such a fucking shitty screwdriver

Seriously mate, are you trying to strike up some 4e conversation by trolling so badly?

The 4e magic item treadmill sucks, but 'Weapon, Neck and Armour' really isn't more than any other edition. 3.5 had the magic item christmas tree just as bad, if not worse.

I always love that picture. It shows how much of the complaints are purely about formatting from people with no understanding of how the system actually works.

shut up you moron, 4E is the best edition of D&D

>Use Monster manual 3 monsters and maths unless you want combats to last three hours each.
I'm pulling monsters out of the Essentials:Monster vault for this very reason.

As someone who likes 4e, I wouldn't say this without qualification.

4e is the most mechanically tight and well designed version of D&D. It has a specific design goal and it achieves it well, after you resolve the few niggling issues the system has.

But for a lot of people, 4e wasn't what they thought D&D should be. 5e, while a looser and less well designed system, does a better job of including those ideas, if only because it is a very vague and abstract system basically designed to be rebuilt by whatever group is using it at the time.

I love 4e and am bored to hell by 5e, but I can see why a lot of people in the core D&D demographic like it.

Save this and use the numbers for making your own monsters, they work great.

Skill challenges are to be used in the same narrative sequence, not for literally the same given problem. The skill challenge would be for the entire sequence of "going to see the king", not just for "getting past this one guard"

Also, it astounds me how that image could use actually diverse powers, yet would still be believed because no one knows how to read a 4e power

That's a bad way to run a skill challenge anyhow.

Also the powers:

- Invigorating is one of the keywords in the first one: if you're trained in Endurance, you gain temporary hitpoints (more with the Battlerager fighter) equal to your Constitution modifier when you hit with it.

- The second one has Rattling, which means that if you're trained in Intimidate, creatures you hit with this attack suffer a -2 to hit until the end of your next turn. Creatures that are immune to Fear are immune to this too, however.

- The last one is a light blade-only power that has an interesting thing: it hits for Reflex rather than for AC, which means that in most cases the defenses are likely to be lower there.

They're quite different, actually.

B/X and stuff before TSR are actually surprisingly well designed in a way that hides the intent. It's probably a sort of accidental good design.

Honestly 4e's books kind of remind me of chess books in a way. They've got a specific terminology that unless you're used to it you're going to miss key things, but once you do understand it becomes quite obvious what everything is.

It's kinda telling that they also use at wills, some of the simplest powers in the system by design, to try and prove their point.

Eberron DM here user. Eberron is freakin amazing, especially in 4e. All of the focus is placed upon the PCs being above average than the common man, it has plenty of places to adventure in, and the npcs don't ever overshadow the characters because of the way the nations and the politics of the world work. So it leaves plenty of things for the party to actual do in the world instead of being overshadowed by more powerful NPCs.

4E is my favorite system to date. The combat is well designed, as are the tiers of play, so you know from the beginning of play that there is a beginning, middle, and end to the campaign. It really helped me as a DM to think ahead and make things memorable for my players especially when they would cross into a new tier of play.

They could've used anything else, Come and Get It and Warrior's Urging; Valorous Smite and Castigating Strike; hell, most of the Ranger's Minor Action powers would fit.

But noooo, they have to use at-wills that are actually different.

Badly made 4e criticism by people that don't understand 4e, how surprising.

I kinda miss the retarded Bloody Path memeing along the lines of "How do I bit self?"

>Skill challenges are to be used in the same narrative sequence

>"The Castle of the Black Knight stands before you, only the bravest adventurers would attempt to infiltrate its blackened walls."

>"My wizard goes to the library and researchest he history of the castle to find out about its architecture and layout" *rolls history* success.
>"My Rogue decides to scout around to see if there's any hidden entrances. *rolls perception* success."
>"My Bard attempts to see if the Lord of the castle is having any audiences or parties " *Rolls diplomacy* success.
>"My fighter wants to see if there's any rumours on the street about what might be happening in the castle" *rolls streetwise* success.

>"Congratulations you have infiltrated the castle."
>"But we aren't inside it yet.."

Yeah skill challenges make all the sense.

The follow up to all of these rolls is of course. OK. each of you have done your research one way or the other, you all know you can get into the castle in a numerous amount of ways, but which one does the party agree upon.

The skill challenge in this instance is meant to progress the story forward. That's all they are user. I'm sorry you don't understand that.

E works best as a tactical combat simulator/dungeon crawler so don't design some complex game of political intrigue.
What the fuck, can't you just fucking roleplay? Do you need a talking mechanic to do intrigue?

You're really missing the point of them, aren't you? If you run full pants-on-head retarded without any consideration for story at all with any system of course you're gonna end up with bullshits like that.

Don't feed the trolls

>"So your party enters the castle through the hidden entrances you discovered, follows the layout you studied and slips into the party you found out was happening tonight, just at the right time to see the king during the special announcement you heard rumors about"
>"Congratulations you have infiltrated the castle."
Was that so hard user? I mean you literally came up with a perfectly fine example yourself. What kind of bizarro baiting is this?

Feat tax
Give them 3 free feats so they have more level up options beyond "Improved Defense, Weapon Expertise" and the other one... I forget what it is.

Don't just use open battlefields with no features. 4e's big thing was positioning, railings to push people off, spikes on the floor, and that one Electric stone that zaps whoever steps on it and spreads to a surrounding square.

Monster Manual 3 math like everyone else said.

Don't be 100% focused on the combat. Yes a fight can take a long time and can end up dominating game time, but the skill system is no worse than in other D&D systems.

Bare in mind that you can handle a lot more shit at level 1 in 4th than other editions but don't go too overboard. The dice can still fuck a party as hard as their own dumb ideas.

Weapon Focus (the +damage feat) is the other one.

4E is potentially the best edition ever, just use this rule:
- halve monsters' hp
- double their dmg
- monsters can't crit.

Nah, the MM3 math in is more nuanced than that and works just fine.

Monster crits aren't the worst outside of monsters with high crit. High crit on monsters was a bad idea.

The normal things you give all players to fix the math are from what I can remember.

Inherent bonuses
One free Expertise Feat
Improved Defenses Feat free

everything else is up to the player

Old D&D was about exploration and hunting treasure. In Basic D&D monsters don't even give XP, except tiny amounts.

>But for a lot of people, 4e wasn't what they thought D&D should be.
Who cares about what some retards think?

Because 'badwrongfun' goes both ways. We can't defend ourselves from people telling us 4e isn't 'real' D&D if we turn around and dismiss what they enjoy using the exact same logic.

It's really weird that 4e detractors always have to make up reason to hate 4e. Especially when 4e fans are more than willing to give them actual flaws with the system instead of just memes.

I want to get into 4e with minimal effort, that's why I ask you what is the best ready made short adventure without a lot of reading. I'm thinking about Reavers of the Harkenwold from Dungeon Master's Kit. Or maybe I should take something from Dungeon magazine?

Thank you, the basic point is to get the essential feats out of the way so the players can get some proper customising going earlier.

For minimum effort, also make sure to get the offline character builder. It makes stuff so much easier.

I remember reading that Madness at Gardmore Abbey is probably the best official module.

I ran Khyber's harvest once; it's a linear as shit dungeon crawl, but you can't really get less effort than that.

Weapon focus isn't a tax. Only strikers "need" it.

Gradmore Abbey is for 6 level, I want to start with 1 level.

Khyber's harvest with premade characters? IIRC that's for level 1.

Nice fuckin strawman.
Other than what said.
Meanwhile in 3.5e/pathfinder
Rogues in combat:
"I make a full attack plus sneak attack."
Fighters in combat
"I make a full attack."
Barbarian in combat
"I make a full attack. Also I'm raging so I do a little more damage."
Monks in combat
"I make a full attack with an extra hit or two. Also I do no damage because I'm playing a joke class."

Wow, so diverse. Such interesting mechanics. Very deep combat. Clearly the superior system.

Don't feed the trolls

why does no one ever play vampire the masquerade?

I disagree. As a 17th level Bard, i was completely useless in combat because i simply had null accuracy. Most of my non-daily effects required an attack roll to function effectively. By the Book math all creatures encountered were 75% immune to my attacks.

Expertise is the +1/2/3 to Hit one and yeah that one is a Tax, Focus is just the +1/2/3 to damage one that really only strikers need.

Yeah, there's actually a direct counter-meme for this particular one: it's the same image, but with red circles over all the subtle differences, like 1 uses Str vs Ac, 2 uses Dex vs AC, and 3 is Dex Vs Reflex, how 1 and 2 are invigorating (Gives + con mod temp HP) and rattling (Target takes -2 to attack rolls) respectively.

Like magic the gathering, 4e's differences are in the Key Words.

Weapon Focus is pretty much useless for Strikers, Implement Focus is a possibility for classes that use them, but in all honesty most Strikers will be optimizing for one sort of elemental damage, often Radiant, Cold or Fire (Firewind Blade, really). Weapon Focus is more of a Defender thing.

Expertise is something everyone needs, though. Versatile Expertise is the first "proper" Expertise, but you'll want one from the HotFL books because you've stuff like Spear Expertise giving bonus damage on charges, Light Blade Expertise giving bonus damage with Combat Advantage and Bludgeon Expertise singlehandedly allowing for things like a Ioun Grey Stone Marker that doesn't need items and if you've ever played the IGSM you know it's probably one of the best Defenders out there.

I actually kind of want to try and teach optimization of non-Striker classes to people that know very little of 4e, it's actually very interesting.

While the default expertise feats are all cool, I actually really like some of the weirder and more interesting ones they implemented.

A Warlord I'm playing just multiclassed into Paladin and retrained their expertise to Devout Protector, giving all their allies a +1 Shield bonus to AC.

Yeah, they were interesting and allowed for more interesting stuff, but goddamn they were kind of broken.

Paladin|Warlord is legitimately one of the best hybrids out there, I tell you, and multiclass isn't half bad.

It's kind of the issue with 4e overall. Early on they were still figuring out how the system worked and made a few mistakes, later on the standard stuff worked a lot better and they started being experimental, but some of the experimental stuff really fell through, like Seeker, Assassin and Vampire.

Others had potential, like Runepriest... And then it stopped being supported and we never saw what the system could really do. It's kinda tragic.

There are so many good official settings in 4e that it's hard to decide what to play. Shadowfell, Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Dark Sun or Nentir's Vale.

By the way, does anyone have scans of Threats to Nentir's Vale?

Just play Strike! instead.

Completely lacks the same level of tactical depth to the point it's unsatisfying in comparison. I can see why some people like it, but it streamlined so much I just don't really see the point in it compared to 4e.

Dark Sun works better when you use the fixed enhancement bonuses, and weapon breakage rules.
Makes things harder for lower-levels, and reduces creep in paragon.

Fuck off Strikefag. Go shill on reddit or something.

>Gritty, low magic, survival based setting
>4E where all level 1 characters are demigod tier, who can cast spells and magically self heal.

Good luck

I think there are reasons to play 4e instead.

I do wonder what Strike's missing though. I'll go ahead and say that Adv/Disadv makes stacking bonuses a lot harder (which could be an important part of tactics) but otherwise it covers a lot of ground, for mostly being a single book + playtets.
wasn't me.
...

You know classic Dark Sun characters used an elite generation method, and started higher level and were psionic, right? This is entirely in line with how the setting is played.

Dark Sun characters were always above average and super strong compared to normal D&D. And it's still the most lethal setting.

>Gritty, low magic, survival based setting
>literally even animals have psionic powers
Dark Sun was always an odd duck of a setting

No, they don't realize that. Because they're fucking speedreaders.

Is there any d ok if 4e potion crafting systems out there?

...What?

4e has an Alchemy system, but along with many other things it never got enough support to really work in and of itself. You're better off folding it into the Rituals system.

This really. I let characters make Alchemical items with Create Magical Item. No terrible difference really.