/NWG/ Naval General - Japs Can't Into Botes Edition

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>Where can I buy miniatures?
I would like to get some Napoleonic ships and I don't know where to buy them

ghqmodels.com/store/military-models-napoleonic-micronauts.html

Thank me later user.

Do you know how thick the turret armor was on the Tone and Mogami?

25mm.

1 Inch.

Japs can't make boats.

If any of you fuckers play in that Bloodwake play by post game, let me know, I've been reading the missions and it seems neat, I'd like to try it at least.
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>This passage made me hard.

The two battleships fire at each other, heavy salvo after heavy salvo. The command tower of the Iron Duke is hit again, creating further chaos on the bridge, but Hale survives again, even as more of his crew is cut down around him. The salvos from the Iron Duke hammer at the damaged Ise. Another shell hit punches through the belt, erupting below the waterline and tearing another hole into the armored citadel of the ship. Already weakened by the Torpedo strikes and previous hits, this proves to be too much for the vessels pumps to handle, and she sinks lower in the water. Minutes later, steam erupts from the ship's vents as the seawater hits the boilers, and they crack under the thermal differential. The starboard side of the Ise dips below the waterline as she begins to roll, and crew can be seen abandoning her all along her decks.

So you're telling me Japanese boats weren't THICK enough?

I thought I've heard before that you should buy GHQ hulls and Langton sails.

GHQ sails are nice, they come in full and battlesail configs.

It feels more like an ocean liner than a warship...

Well, those carriers I mean destroyers carry helicopters whose primary mission is anti-submarine, hence the 'Destroyer' classification.

That would be pretty neat if you could make them swappable.

Meanwhile in the USA.
>turret face 203mm

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>Counties: 25mm all-around
>French norm: 30mm max

Thank you for Rule The Waves ; I didn't knew this game but I am hooked now

You mean the Cruisers that actually obeyed the treaty and were 10,000 tons, compared to the Tone which weighed 15,000?

They were basically the same serviceable turrets which were designed for Aoba, sightly modified for a different 20cm gun. When you have a turret that works it's more efficient to reuse those turrets and put more effort into literally every other aspect of design. Even if you later learn that it's suboptimal you don't just shit out new turrets on command.

The only reason you saw Nagato and Mutsu getting heavier turrets is because those units already existed for the planned Tosa class and had been put into storage rather than being broken up. And when that happened the ships had to also have massive torpedo bulges added to retain stability and buoyancy.

tl;dr quit talking about naval design as if it works by magic.

>Ospreys
What is an Osprey ?

I'm looking for napoleonic ships too, but more on the 1/30h~ scale in wood ; Anyone know a good shop ?

Short, heavily illustrated paperback book about military history related topics published by Osprey Publishing.

>What is an Osprey ?

A series of a painting guides with delusions of grandeur.

They began as somewhat serviceable guides for painting historical figures and vehicles and then, in true Peter Principle fashion, were 'promoted to their level of incompetence".

While they'd been historically suspect enough when discussing the tropical winter uniforms of the 6 & 7/8ths Moronikan Horse Marines during the Sim Sala Bim Campaign of 1679, the wheels fell completely off when they began doing 'straight" history in the form of weapon, vehicle, battle, campaign, and war books.

They're a monopoly, pure and simple. No other publisher produces anything like the number and variety books Osprey does. That means they don't need to give a fuck because where else are you going to buy anything similar?

>And when that happened the ships had to also have massive torpedo bulges added to retain stability and buoyancy.

There's something that has been interesting me for a while now. Would one theoretically be able to capsize a Nagato-class by damaging and flooding the bulges on one side of the ship? Let's say damage control goes full retard and doesn't do squat.

To be fair, they can be useful as introductory reading for a subject, though the exact quality will depend on the specific author.

>Let's say damage control goes full retard and doesn't do squat.
...So business as usual in the IJN?

>What is an Osprey ?

A history book, in the same way that what McDonald's sells is food.

>they can be useful as introductory reading for a subject

I'd say the opposite. You need a good amount of knowledge to catch the bullshit, or you'll have a gruelling journey in front of you un-learning the incorrect first impression.

Of course, when you do have a good amount of knowledge there probably won't be much reason to stick your nose into an Osprey book.

Not likely. Kirishima foundered due to her own counterflooding measures because there was significant penetration in several adjacent compartments above the waterline which her own damage control exposed to seawater ingress. Nagato had much more substantial underwater protection to begin with and was extensively protected against fragmentation damage of the sort that contributed to the loss of Kirishima on top of having much greater reserve buoyancy.

Also recall that it took several days for flooding to sink Nagato after the Baker shot, and that was damage which compounded sixty near misses in shallow water during the Yokosuka raids. So while it's possible to sink any ship due to uncontained flooding Nagato and Mutsu were better built to handle that sort of problem than any ships their age. Aside from slightly thinner armor over their machinery spaces than you might have liked they were stupidly durable, and even the USN's postwar examinations confirmed as much.

Before her refit in the 1930's it was a different story, but even then not much worse on balance than other dreadnoughts had it.

>A history book, in the same way that what McDonald's sells is food.

No need to be offensive towards McDonald's, at least what they sell at one point had potential to be perfectly serviceable product.

>I'd say the opposite. You need a good amount of knowledge to catch the bullshit, or you'll have a gruelling journey in front of you un-learning the incorrect first impression.

Beat me to it.

>...So business as usual in the IJN?

Quoted for truth. Look at Kongo. Two torpedo hits, but she steams on at ~16 knots for the next two and a half hours, only to suddenly capsize and explode.

The IJN was designed, built, led, trained, and manned by idiot savants. Absolute world class in a very few select areas and pants-on-head retards in everything else.

>idiot savants
Welcome back, chucklefuck. I didn't miss you.

Glad to be back, cumstain.

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The IJN couldn\t build a bote without cribbing from the UK.

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Would you gentlemen know where to find a record of the colors on a German cruiser circa 1944-45? I've got a Prinz Eugen model kit on its way to being ready for primer.

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German Naval Camouflage Volume 2 by Eric Leon & John Asmussen probably could have them.

Cute.

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>all of the carriers and destroyers don't count
First of all, they do count. The Shokaku class and Akizuki class for example were very fine examples of their respective breeds, and were completely indigenous aside from their light AA designs (cribbed from the French). And THAT was the worst thing about them. Their old battleships, indigenous in design and construction, were fine and modernized well enough compared to any other nation's capital ships of comparable age.

What killed the IJN was their habit of essentially tacking on MORE to established designs, all in an attempt to compensate for small numbers. You saw this become a problem between Fubuki and Kagero, and developing with the Takaos onward, while newer classes that deviated from those patterns came out slowly and there were never enough to go around.

Basically, the Japanese designers knew damn well how to boat. Sometimes they just didn't, for a variety of reasons.

>). And THAT was the worst thing about them. Their old battleships, indigenous in design and construction, were fine and modernized well enough compared to any other nation's capital ships of comparable age.

Tbh even with their much vaunted fast battleship rebuilds to me Kongos always seemed quite bit weaker than the rebuilt Renown, mostly because of their lackluster AA-suite.

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Alright, I'm gonna pick this statement apart because there's a LOT wrong with it. First the Kongos aren't "much vaunted" outside the Kancolle fandom, they were just the most frequently deployed because they were quick, had a good cruising range, and there were four of them. Most people who actually know anything agree that they weren't up to snuff to serve as battleships.

Second: the Kongos had a 4x2 main battery while the Renowns were 3x2, which absolutely isn't up to the RN's standards for battleships. The Kongos' secondary battery was intended to face destroyers and light cruisers, which was reduced a bit at a time to allow for more dual-purpose 127mm mounts as the anticipated threat shifted. The difference is that the RN made that shift all at once for the Renowns, in no small part because in Europe land-based aircraft were always a probable threat where the same was less true in the Pacific (recall the IJN had that advantage on THEIR side).

Third, Renown and Repulse were basically made of paper and wishful thinking. The Kongos were more heavily reinforced in key locations, though neither was a match for a proper battleship.

tl;dr you're vastly overselling the RN boats.

>while the Renowns were 3x2, which absolutely isn't up to the RN's standards for battleships.

Well duh, most of RN's CCs had one turret less than their BB counterparts (Orions/KGVs/Iron Dukes - 5 turrets, QE/R - 4 turrets vs Lions/Queen Mary/Tiger - 4 turrets, Refit&Repair - 3 turrets).

>Third, Renown and Repulse were basically made of paper and wishful thinking. The Kongos were more heavily reinforced in key locations, though neither was a match for a proper battleship.

By WW2 Renown had 229mm thick 3.65m wide belt (acquired during her reconstructions during mid-20s) and 127mm deck armor over her magazines, compared to Kongous which had 203mm thick 3.8m wide belt + 120mm thick deck over their magazines. Really, the only areas where Kongous' armor seems noticeably superior are with their bulkheads (203mm vs Renown's 102mm) and barbettes (305mm vs 178mm).

And their turrets.

Again, you are vastly overestimating the RN battlecruisers.

The numbers that I have seen for Kongo-class' turret armor is around 229mm-152mm is which about same as Renown's 229mn-178mm.

Well your numbers are wrong, Kongo's faces were 250mm and the sides were 230mm. The class also had deck armor laid down piecemeal over their main armored decks.

If you're using Jane's or sources that repeat Jane's data uncritically that's your reason, they're slow to replace prewar data and tend not to rely on IJN records for things.

Interesting, the only places that I've checked so far that mention this turret up armoring are Wikipedia and ONI's WW2 recognization charts for Nip capital ships.

Should be in Dulin and Garzke, Wikipedia cites a more recent edition of Jane's so I may be dinging them more for their inaccuracies with Nagato and Mutsu, and iirc USN technical mission agrees with 254mm faces. 9" faces were her specs as-built until the ships in class were refit in the 1930's.

A lot of people also forget that all of the other older capital ships got complex armor additions at around the same time, and many of the IJN's own sources are incomplete due to intentional and incidental destruction of the related archives.

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Is Shimakaze better with or without a dick?

Chinese version is better desu.

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The RN main gun standard was 8+ for spotting. Six was the bare minimum for effective central fire control, but some redundancy was desired.

Yes.

>Japs can't into botes

Threadly reminder that the Yamato would have sunk the Iowa inside of an hour

Reminder that the Yamato's primary accomplishments are hauling a lot of troops and getting fucked by planes on its way to a suicide mission

Thank you so much, I have been looking for a free copy of Rule the Waves for quite a while now.

With what radar?

Type 22 Mod. 4 surface search/fire control radar.

Yamato, one of the few ships to make Biscuits look even somewhat useful in comparison.

The Iowa had better radar and was faster. Not to mention better shell quality made up for the difference in caliber.
Massively inferior to what the Americans were using.

>Not to mention better shell quality made up for the difference in caliber.

Not really; Yamato could pen the Iowa anywhere; the Iowa couldn't pen the Yamato's turrets.

>Massively inferior to what the Americans were using.

Doesn't matter so long as they can get a fix and a hit, because it really would only take one good hit.

The Americans would get a fix and a hit first. You seriously overestimate WWII Japanese radar.

And I think you seriously underestimate the quality of Japanese optical/nighttime bearing-finding systems as well as the firepower advantage, while simultaneously overestimating how much of an advantage the Iowa's radar systems actually provide.

>Optical sights providing any advantage when Radar can find a target in total darkness and drop shells directly on top of it.

Face it, the Japanese strategy in WWII was to use weapons that would have been high tech in the previous war. Their optical sights while excellent, did not provide any actual advantage in the time they were used.

As for the Yamato's radar, it was search radar, any pretensions of being fire control radar are massively inflated. The Iowa on the other hand had actual fire control radar separate from it's search radar. It was good enough to detect shell splashes and use them to correct.

The Yamato only wins this fight if it gets a lucky hit in, The Iowa on the other hand could make it's own luck with superior radar and mobility.

Yeah, no. Have you actually seen fire charts for the Iowa's guns? They're really not that much better than the usual, despite its vaunted radar.

The fight largely does come down to luck, but Iowa has to get a lot more lucky than the Yamato does. Yamato's turrets are invulnerable, and the Yamato can still function to a good degree if its own radar gets knocked out, whereas the same thing happening to Iowa would be much more crippling. And the Yamato can pen and deal massive damage anywhere. The Japanese ship has a serious, undeniable edge.

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People, please actually read the primary documents before you start bullshitting. Multiple official reports from Samar credit "dumb luck" that the Japanese capital ships kept straddling but not hitting anything, with frequently described tight dispersal.

Which is the story about battleships of the era: you can drop as many shells as you want in as tight a group as you can manage at the greatest range you can effectively shoot from and STILL not hit anything. Not because you did anything wrong, but because lady Luck was off favoring someone else at the moment.

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Essentially this, yes.

Yup, this....you can paperfight all you want, one (un)lucky hit and it's all over...

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Exactly. Among too many other things to list, derping over paper fights ignores, either deliberately or out of stupidity, that Iowa and Yamato wouldn't be stepping into a boxing to fight "mano a mano".

Magically waving away air attacks still leaves several situational factors like time of day, scouting, escorts, consorts, weather, etc.

If you're adding turrets don't do it halfheartedly.

Be like Agincourt...

Ahhh... Agincourt... The poster child for 5th tier naval power dick sizing...

If we can only afford one ship, Dom Pedro, let it be the biggest with the most turrets and guns!

Tbf if you're a 3rd rate powerr looking to buy a national penis extender and you don't have the rescurces to go and up the caliber ordering a ship with billion or so turrets make some sense.

Very true. Still I have a soft spot for her. Anything that looks like its blowing up whenever it fires full broadsides grabs my attention. She's unique and heavily flawed and that's cool.

This is not Hipper.

Prinz is filling in for her sister, Admiral Not Appearing In This Waifu Mobage.

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Most of the time it's deliberate, specifically to cut out such factors and leave it in the hands of the ship crews.

I still opine that Yamato has a massive edge, simply because it does not have to get as lucky as the Iowa to win the fight.

>I still opine

Check out the analysis at combinedlfeet DOT com and see if you opinion wavers a little.

Not changes, mind you, just wavers.

>make some sense.

It makes no sense beyond the "national penis extender" role, especially when it eats up so much of your budget you'll literally have no other ships and even more so when you don't have the technological ability to keep it in operation.

"But she looks so grand there welded to the pier while our enemies blockade all our ports, Dom Pedro!"

It's telling that Brazil decided stop payments and sold her to the Ottomans eight months BEFORE the start of WW1.

I've seen it, and not really since I feel it makes the mistake a lot of people do--assuming the Iowa's radar would be a much bigger advantage than it actually would have been. It does acknowledge the heavy role of luck and mitigating factors though, and does note that Iowa would not have been able to get penetrating hits on the Yamato's armored turrets. So there's that at least.

Essentially my opinion is thus:

1) It's largely going to come down to lucky hits.
2) There is no place on Iowa that Yamato cannot hit for heavy damage.
3) There ARE places on Yamato that the Iowa cannot hit for heavy damage.
4) Therefore,Yamato is significantly more likely to win the fight than Iowa.