/hhg/ - Horus Heresy General - Imperial FistsEdition

Alternate Warmasters will always be a popular topic but I've always personally hated it. Horus was the perfect candidate and thats the reason his betrayal was so tragic.

I know a lot of that tragedy has disappeared after BL got their hands on the fluff but its still true that only Horus could have held the title or Warmaster and not fucked it up.

One vorax almost done. It's a bit colorful

>The Astartes tactical comes with a combat knife and acid saliva by default
>Tfw the marine most known by escaping captivity, Darnath Lysander, is from the legion known to lack the acid spit.
The special mention they do to their combat blades must mean they had an important battle role besides being merely an auxiliary too secondary to the bolter like for so many legions, and it's set to highlight the especial importance of the fully equipped multi-role soldier, instead of merely saying "yes, they had a knife", for example like the way the HH books talk about WEs and how they always brought close combat weapons.
Again, not as auxiliary tools, but with all the intent of closing in and excel in situations the majority of militaryment would try to avoid: a bloody melee.
I think that, alongside rapid deployment for surgical and decapitations strikes, are some of the situations marines can do that few other corps in the galaxy can do.
I mean, people often talk about how the ALs were trained to do everything and being Snakes, but so were the DG, all of that with a roboust chain of command. This would explain why they did mantain their shape as a coherent fighting force after the betrayal all the way up to Terra, instead of falling to insanity like other legions.

Sanguinius would have been fine. He was a reasonable guy and everyone liked him.

No Sanguinius would have struggled with his self doubt and insecurities. He might also have struggled with ordering his brothers(Angron, Kurze) to do the things they needed to do.

Besides Sangy didnt want to be in charge.

Darnath Lysander is from a successor, if you want to be technical.

For all his virtues, he always felt too far removed from regular mankind.
>"Perhaps so", Horus admitted. "You have always been my conscience, Sanguinius".
>"Never forget how much I vaule that".
I cri eveyttiem.

>It's a bit colorful
Nah, it's fine. The colours = bad meme is a poor one that makes everyone's minis look dull, dirty and largely indistiguishable from a distance, ie standing a few feet above and away from them around a large table.

I saw a squad of TS tonight that were so dulled and washed down because of the panic over minis being thought of as bad for being shiny and bright, that they were some weird desaturated magenta that looked like it'd been mixed with coal dust.

/mildrant

Horus had plenty of doubt when he was chosen. Sanguinius would have overcame it just as he did. He put entire sectors to the sword so I doubt he'd be too squeamish to unleash Curze.

I don't really see how that's a negative. Horus seemed at times to have outright contempt for baseline humanity.

I've always kind of preferred Pre-Heresy TSons to have a dulled red instead or shiny or cherry red. That's not to say that the guys models were any good, just that if it's done well I think its their best scheme.

I'm more worried about clashing colors.
I wanted to toss in brass since its mechanicum and vorax have shitty armor, but I'm concerned with how it mingles with the gunmetal

Sure, but these weren't the matte pastel red, these were like raspberries rolled in steeldust until they had a couple mil thick coating. You couldn't even call it a red of any kind.
It's completely fine, brass and steel work. What you need to consider going forward is simply the balance, esp on bigger models. That vorax is good.

Eh, I've always thought Sanguinius would be quite capable as a Warmaster, the same as Guilliman. But if he says he'd better want Horus to do it, then that's his opinion. Like this excerpt, Horus wasn't the only one to be able to do compromises, and Sanguinius performed good enough as Imperator Regis.

>Horus had plenty of doubt when he was chosen.
Yes but Horus himself was a confident individual, whereas Sangy was plagued by feelings of insecurity.

>I doubt he'd be too squeamish to unleash Curze.
Theres a difference between following orders and giving them.

I think what they guy was more on about was the thematic benefits of Horus being created to be the traitor. If Sang was used, while a literal fallen angel as evil would have been interesting back then, it robs the HH (and the future setting of noble space vampries) of rather a lot. The problem with alternate fan heresy stuff is that it diminishes the lore rather than enhances it.

Horus was always meant to be Space Mordred. That has not been called into question until very recently when BL announced they're redoing the final battle.

I think Guilliman would have been an awful pic for Warmaster. He's extremely technically competent but has poor interpersonal skills. Around half the Primarchs actively disliked or loathed him. Bob wouldn't have been able to manage them, which is half the job.

There's a saying that those who seek power are the least worthy of it. I think it's a credit to Sanguinius that he didn't covet the position.

Guilliman is a great leader who can work with others regardless of their differences - even with xeno, as has been evident as of m42. The only exception to this rule are equals. Many of the other primarchs will not listen to him, and he will not compromise enough to the point where the crusade's effectiveness will be jeopardized by the personal tastes and affinities of the primarchs. For this reason, he would not be a good Warmaster.

Its also important to point out why the primarchs Horus kept closest are the ones who were the most problematic. The ones who were able to function on their own initiatives were the most distant.

Yes, which strikes me as a development similar to what has happened in the past in things like comics. The new generation who grew up on stuff are too concentrated on trying to tie things up into neat logical bows or what they think would 'make sense'. In the process they lose touch with the thematic intent and wider meanings, and end up devaluing content.

Like, talking about so-and-so would have been a better warmaster because they were better at logistics or had wider charisma or had the best haircut or whatever are fun diversions, but when tried to argue seriously they end up leading the proponent and the whole discussion down this garden path of autism that misses the fucking point of the thing in the first place.

It doesn't even have to just be people like Goulding or whoever, similar urges to 'explain' things even by the og creators decades later is how you end up with fucking midichlorians.

I mean, sure, Goulding or whoever can tell us it's what Alan Merret and Tony Cottrell etc realllly meant but never said 25 years ago, I don't care if that's true (even though it's totally bullshit), they should be asking themselves if trying to make things more logical or neat for the modern geek sensibility is really a good idea when the whole thing is based on mythic and literary themes that get compromised by those choices.

Maybe its high time to silly up the HH. I think to start, it should be revealed that post-power up Horus transformed into a girl.

But we all know Saber is Guilliman.

No user, the Emperor is Saber and the Primarchs are the many Sabers made in Saber's image.

I don't think the Alternative Warmaster people are saying
>REEEEEEE my pick is superior fuck you GW I could do 40k better
It's just an interesting hypothetical to discuss. (for some people at least)

>tfw there's enough Saberclones for there to be one for every legion.

Yeah, fun diversions as I said. Bulk of my ramble was about the official writers making things a bit crappier.

>He's extremely technically competent but has poor interpersonal skills.
Let's do this. I entertain this thought but you give me proofs that he, in fact, did have poor relations skills. Post an excerpt.

I don't know. I really appreciate my settings having an internal consistency to them.

It's just a matter of execution IMHO

Explain this animemery to me. What's up with the Sabers and the Fates and stuff?

It wouldn't be a Western fiction franchise if the franchise authors didn't argue for their favorite picks and against their strongest dislikes. I mean fuck, look at the Marvel comic book's Civil War debacle where it literally devolved into comic writers taking sides in the workplace.

On numerous occasions he criticized his fellow Primarchs and tried to change their ways but it never once worked. Maybe he didn't have poor interpersonal skills but he certainly didn't know how to deal with his brothers. Nobody liked him. He was that kid in class who kept on giving you unsolicited advice and then ran to tattle when you told him to fuck off.

There wasn't really incentive for the other Primarchs to listen to him. Its not like the Emperor was going to censure them for the shit they did (until Prospero), and he couldn't throw their Legions into a blender unlike Horus. So of course most of them brushed off his counsel.

Well yes. This is not me making an argument or an attempt at one based around nothing changing reeee old stuff is sacrosanct. It's the urge to explain things that don't need it in needlessly detailed and autistic ways. Like how now we know the Emperor's Children armour goes pink because Eidolon pours acid over everyone's armour, to take the first example that comes to mind.
I hope that 'question' being answered unclenched someone's asshole, but if someone asked you before this amazing revelation why it was pink, you'd give them an answer about the usage of pink and connotations of it in art and meaning and feel. That stuff is all still true, but the 'actual' internally established reason is accidental acid bath, and it'll be the first answer people give. And now we can argue about the acid instead of more rewarding conversation about more abstracted themes.
These are the kinds of things that generate the discussions about BL changes to the Emperor and Horus. It can be hard trying to get across that you can have new details created that continue or enhance the themes adn that it is better than just having cold facts to enter into a lex or wiki or spreadsheet, so forgive my rambling.
The authors fighting and calling dibs on legions and factions to the exclusion of other authors always makes me feel a bit uneasy.

Tony Stark did nothing wrong and only unironic anarchists can argue against superheroes having to register.

clone thor

>people aren't allowed to defend themselves when someone the size of a building attempts to do them bodily harm

>poor interpersonal skills

I don't see much of that, he's an exceptionally capable politician and described as 'the most human of the Primarchs' for how easy he could interact on a relatable level to regular men. He never comes across as socially inept when dealing with other Primarchs, even with ones like the Lion who he's in awe of.

A lot of the dislike for him was either a reaction to his perceived arrogance, belief that he was less than loyal/wanted to build a personal empire or outright jealousy over his/his legion's achievements.

I agree that the dislike existed and would have made him a bad choice for Warmaster but not because he had bad inter-personal skills, that's more Dorn or Perturabo's issue.

Surely you can post proof of all these critics to the other guy's faces, then. I mean, I could think you're a fag but with good personal skills you wouldn't know it because I wouldn't tell you to your face. Fag :^)
Post proofs

Fucking.
REBELS.
Reminder that one of the main opponents of the Galactic Empire was the former QUEEN of Naboo.
>*Screeches while being the senate*

Oh no the Queen of Naboo, whatever shall I do?!

Rude desu.

>democratically elected queen

>interrogation marks

>Dorn is not a coalition builder.
Dorn is the ultimate coalition builder. Nobody builds a coalition like him, especially not Perturabo.

t. Imperial Fist

Coalition is a type of wall, right?

That's just old fashioned, aristocratic Naboo racism raising its head again. The former Queen was opposed to the Empire because one of its strongest founding proponents was the Gungan Senator Binks.

What we need is a coalition, folks, alright? And I do the best coalitions of them all. The best coalitions, believe me. When Xana sends us their tithe, they're not sending us their best. They're sending servitors, they're sending hereteks, they're thralls...and some I assume are good Magi. They're laughing at us.
If I'm chosen Warmaster I'm going over there and make them release proper tithe, the best tithe, to us.
Srry, I just wanted to trumpost a bit.

I think it's the sticky-up bits on top of a wall. Could be wrong.

Bost broof Guilliman didn't get along with others :DD

Dorn was way too stubborn to be warmaster

Guilliman was too autistic and prone to obsessions

Russ was an easily offended savage inflexible dickbag

Ferrus was also too stubborn and had 0 charisma

Pert was too easily offended and too bitter

Khan could barely speak gothic

Fulgrim was too focused on himself

Vulkan was too sentimental

Corax was too reclusive

Lorgar was too fanatical

Mortarion was too stinky and prejudiced

Magnus was a heretic that really doesnt even count as human

Curze & Angron were insane

Alpharius would BTFO his own crusade for keks

Only other guy who could do it was Sanguinius

So I just finished Crimson King....

SPOILERS FOLLOW

...... I'm confused.

How does this book square with the Ahriman trilogy? Where we first learned Magnus was incomplete and it felt like all the TSons did too.

There were more shards there too right? But it felt like everyone sorta forget they'd gone through this already during the Heresy.... So where did these extra shards come from?

AND the Ahriman books ended with Magnus STILL missing bits of himself.

So yeah, color me not understanding.

I wonder what army you play.

Some of this is just plain wrong.

My best guess is Sons of Horus.

>Vulkan was too sentimental
Right.

>How does this book square with the Ahriman trilogy?
It doesnt and once again Mcneil shit the bed with TS fluff. Dont worry the retcon will all be a part of the plan after the fact ;^)

Quiet Ferrus, you have no room to talk, you're dead.

pfft fulgrim would have been PERFECT for the role of warmaster

I can understand that. And don't get me wrong, but, um, he's much more enjoyable to, um, post as than his predecessor.

You forgot the Lion.

And while he was too bad at people to do the job, he and Luther would have dreamteamed it. Just like Creed and Kell.

Exactly like Creed and Kell, in fact. Aw, here it goes.

>Magnus was a heretic that really doesnt even count as human
Did. Nothing. Wrong.

Until Luther gets sent home for making the Lion look like the retard he is again.

If vulkan was too sentimental, so was sanguinius.

>implying Luther wasn't sent home because Lion realized the dangers of Chaos beings and needed his best and most trusted man to protect Caliban from receding into the Old Night
>implying the Fall didn't only happen because Lion was bad at people and figured Luther would also realize that this was a big deal, serious job
>but Luther thought he was being abandoned on a nowhere hick planet because Lion-kouhai didn't trust him anymore
We need a story where Luther and Kor Phaeron interact. And Luther bullies Kor Phaeron.

Aside from none of that being explained to Luther, and him thinking Lion'el knew Luther tried to kill him anyway. Aside from Zahariel and Nemiel, the HH books for the Dark Angels have made me hate the entire Legion that much more.

I guess he will be shattered again during the Heresy, or on Terra? And not get Janus part back forever.

I didn't really get any serious answers in the last thread (which is obviously a sign), but I thought I'd post my idea for a flying Death Star list for my Salamanders. Could be silly. Could be fun. Could be a recipe for disaster.

The thing is, I'm just trying to put off buying a Spartan. I find the model a bit ugly. To be honest, I'm more interested in collecting and painting than playing, but would like to have some sort of effective force if I decide to get into it.

Anyway, here's the flyer list, but I'll post the Spartan-centric one next as well to compare. How ridiculous would it be if I have my Primarch Deathstar in a Storm Eagle (I dig the model so much more than the Spartan)?

Here's the other list

Have you tried to build a storm eagle? It might cool on it a bit.

I've actually heard they're a pain to make. Is it actually that bad?

Pls let this be the one and only truth, I want to believe that even though the Lion treated Luther like a sack of shit he at least held him in high esteem and looked up to him in some fatherly/brotherly figure way.

Guilliman stops Cawl from releasing the lost legion Primarines because of his honour code, but he still keeps him around and doesn't kill Cawl for telling him more UM chapters have fallen than non UM chapter

Meant

>authors fighting
Source
>acid went pink
Sauce, and are you sure you don't mean they didn't do SPESS acid and thought it looked cool

>not knowing about Aengland
>not knowing about the polish Lithuanian commonwealth
>not knowing people meant the middleclass for much of human society until champagne socialists and nationalists fucked it all up
19th century best century

>polish Lithuanian commonwealth
>the sejm
>democratic
LaughingPrussians.jpg
Theres a difference between democracy and every bastard in the various realms having an asslicking contest

Ianus is why Titan goes into the warp, because Magnus is trapped in real space until he is united with all his shards :^)

>Luther tried to kill Lion
What, the only killing I thought he was related to was Zahriel trying to bomb the emperor

We know now that the beast on caliban is actually a daemon, what if it's Kairos Fateweaver like how he fucks up the book of Magnus dooming the TS for good, also do we know which daemon the warsmith is

Did or did the burghers not have a vote

The people of Nurth or wherever that are afflicted by Chaos and smuggled a nuke onto his flagship. Luther was gonna let the bomb go off for nebulous reasons.

But 50 years before they find out what Caliban is, Luther's already plotting with the Lord Cypher.

What so cypher isn't the zahariel in 30k
Are knights of lupus a chaos cult that doesn't realise it or active worshippers, sorry I don't buy bad legion books

Glue side barrels on before painting or no for B@C ass dread cannon

Zahariel is probably the 40k Cypher, but this one is a Calibanite who is from a probably Chaos worshiping Order of Knights on Caliban.

The Soul, Severed.
Eidolon and his EC get attacked by another faction of EC. During the battle giant vats of acid get detonated and cover Eidolon and his men. Their armour gets stained a vivid pink as a result, which they all love. Eidolon orders that all the remaining acid is decanted and transported to his ships, so he can take it back to the main EC fleet and share the wonderful experience of being covered in acid with them.
Black Library knock another one out of the park.

>he liked painting

Those engines on the new Thunderhawk are really damn sexy, especially with that cool 3-engine distribution.

Also actually painted to a good standard now. Did you see the Stormbird on their website? Didn't even bother to do the spotlights, most was just sprayed yellow.

So I am reading the "Crimson King". Ahriman is on a quest to piece back his primarch.

But on the journey Ahriman was shown a few visions.

In one of them he sailed the universe and saw a many galaxies forming it. While he was floating around, a massive and vast reptilian intelligence looked at him for a moment. What the fuck was that, Veeky Forums? Also Ahriman was shown a vision of the galaxy's past where a race of gods battled against their immortal enemies. Anyone idea who they are?

On a side note, Ahriman was shown around a pavilion that contained many relics. One of them was an Eldar helmet that contains a hunfering Eldar soul. Ahriman went out of his way to approach the helmet and tell the Eldar soul within that its race is dying and there is nothing it can do to help them adding to the soul's rage and despair. Why is Ahriman such a dick?

Exactly how fucking new are you btw?

>why is he such a dick
Like father like son
>suddenly reptiles
McNeil watches Alex Jones
ADB watches Owen jones

The reptile was probably a manifestation of the Hive Mind, the gods battling enemies were probably the Old Ones fighting the War in Heaven against the Necrontyr/Necrons.

>can't find a flaw in Magnus so he has to bullshit
Kek.
Literally this.

>What is Magnus' Folly

Magnus doomed humanity. He is a retard who vastly overestimated himself and his Legion, to the detriment of almost every living human in the galaxy. Imagine ten thousand Custodes and who knows how many Sisters of Silence free to wreck traitor face instead of being killed in the Webway.