/osrg/ OSR General

>I know planes and hell were in Unearthed Arcana (IIRC),
>but far from being prepared for campaigning outright.
Manual of the Planes. 7 years older than Planescape.

>owning weapons

>Or is it actually more complicated than rolling a die and adding/subtracting a modifier?
It's a lot less complicated.

>How far away can you get from oldschool D&D before it stops being that?
If you make serious alterations to the combat, you get away pretty quick.
Beyond that, you can change just about anything as long as you don't change everything,.
>Like the 6 ability scores, saving throws, full set of polyhedral dice in use, etc.
If your only reason to remove the polyhedra is aesthetic, you should rethink your life.

"Rulings not Rules."

Are you consistent about this in game? If you ruled something one way do you note it as a house rule for next time? Or do you arbitrarily do something different next time?

If not how do you provide any mechanical consistency to the game? Which without players can't make any informed choices.

But if so don't you end up with an expansive rules set that almost goes against the rules lite spirit of osr?

I love the OSR style but I can't work out a satisfactory answer to this.

>not wanting to throw darts into close combat with your friends
It's like you don't even want to be That Guy.

It really depends on what it is that I'm ruling on, but I tend to view each situation as unique. The commonality in all situations is that I'm striving for a simple, sensible, well-balanced way to resolve things. If I hit on a way of doing things I like, I'm going to tend to stick with it and apply it to similar situations. If I'm not satisfied with a solution, then I'll probably do things differently next time (though I may just tweak my approach a little, especially if I felt like the previous approach was just a little bit off). Unless I completely miscalculated the first time though, the overall effectiveness of doing something is unlikely to drastically change, so even if my players can't count on things being done exactly the same way, they can have a decent idea how effective it is to do something.

I've only read a little since I badly need to pass out right now, but it looks interesting.

>(1) Conveyance of Supply & Spoils
>When cast, this spell creates a magical force that helps carry things. The force can carry equal in load to 4 +
I'm not sure what a load of 5 (for example) means.

Also, you say spell power increases by level, but don't say it directly equals your level, which I assume is the case.

Ultimately the answer to your question is:
>Which without players can't make any informed choices.
This is a false assumption.

What players need to make informed choices is a consistent *world*, that makes sense according to their experiences and expectations. One of the reasons to eschew consistent rules is actually that they tend to interfere with that; for instance, in 3E the rules on being conscious but bleeding out mean that it's less dangerous to jump down a short drop than to throw a dart. The latter case forces you to save or begin losing HP again, but the former does not because it's movement. That's absurd, of course; in reality the shock of landing on your feet is much more likely to reopen your wounds than throwing something that weights an ounce or two. Your reaction is probably "okay, but that's easily disregarded, just do the thing that makes sense", and, EXACTLY. That's a ruling.

In other words, just rule so things make sense when the situation comes up, why bother with a fixed rule that you have to remember or look up?The same exact situation rarely comes up twice, and even if it does, either you remember how you ruled last time, or you don't so then it doesn't matter because you don't remember that anyhow, it might as well never have occurred. Any minor gain that comes of having a fixed rule is massively outweighed by the hassle of referencing heaps of them. Besides, what's to say you ruled it right the first time and wrong this time? Having rulings lets you adjust your refereeing on the fly so that ideally you're always improving.

Do you lose your prepared spell when you cast it?

Mind you, with the wonky way psionics work in Eldritch Wizardry, that far from necessarily means you'll have +5 sword fists on character level 10. It's the tenth level *after you gained the power*, which could be fucking 24 or something.

Despite the best power on the Fighting-Man list, it's a Basic power not a Superior.
If you get it at all, you'll get it well before level 14.

You also neglected the AC bonus.
At 10th level of mastery that's AC of -1.
AC of -2 with a shield. That's before magic items.

If you run the M2M table, "weapon type is always to most favorable" makes your to-hit chance really stupid really quick.

>If not how do you provide any mechanical consistency to the game? Which without players can't make any informed choices.

Adding to what others have said, just follow how the real world works and use common sense. In any edition (hell, any RPG) if you turn a door knob and push a door, it opens. That's not something that needs a rule or a die roll.

Let players just do something if their characters could, like kill a sleeping enemy or jump a small pit (roll under Strength if there's any doubt).

Game mechanics are for abstract things like "I attack" or "I search the room" or "how do the monsters react". They have built-in risk/reward systems and consequences (it takes a round, it takes a turn, the monsters might be hostile). Don't make everything a die roll, but fall back on x in 6, d%, or roll under ability score if there's some doubt that an action will work.

>Game mechanics are for abstract things
Abstractions are justified by game mechanics, not the other way around.
Game mechanics are for things the referee will not or can not trust themself to fairly arbitrate.

That's what I meant, my bad.

You could have:
>"I pull the first book."
>"Nothing happens."
>"I pull the second book."
>"Nothing happens."
>...
>"I pull the thirteenth book."
>"A secret door opens!"

Or you could have:
>"I search the room."
>a die is rolled
>"After looking around and playing with some of the books, pulling on the thirteenth one opens a secret door!"

Hell, I'm certain there are groups of medieval combat nerds out there who run combat blow-by-blow without dice rolls because they're just that into it.

Maybe also:
>"I pull books until something happens."
>"You spend a couple minutes..." *Random encounter roll, nothing shows up* "...pulling books until a secret door opens!"

Exactly. I don't understand why the passage of time and wandering monster rules were basically removed from later editions. They form part of a really tight game loop that keeps the game fun and makes every time-consuming action meaningful (instead of just trying again or taking 10 or taking 20 or automatically passing, whoop-de-doo).

Also in the short term I'd say there are other things players can just do without it taking up a turn. Anyone with a reasonable strength score and a running start can clear a 5' pit. You can ask the goblin king to surrender if he's cowardly and has no chance of winning. Solving a riddle leads to the intended resolution.

I need some help with anydice. Would anyone here know how to get something like "percent change that a 5 or a 6 will be rolled three times on 5d6"? Alternatively, does anyone know a place that explains how to do it through math?

>Game mechanics are for things the referee will not or can not trust themself to fairly arbitrate.
this. Also for things that have no analogue in the real world and so need defining (such as magic)

Is there anywhere I can get a Chainmail pdf? Can't find it in the trove. Just wanted to take a look at the jousting rules

Chainmail is in the OD&D folder.

Oh, thank you

Anydice stores the rolls as a sequence, for least to greatest.
This looks at the 3rd lowest roll of 5d6, and checks if it's greater than 4: anydice.com/program/c03d

>Alternatively, does anyone know a place that explains how to do it through math?
math.stackexchange.com/questions/684899/calculate-the-probability-of-an-event-occurring-at-least-x-times-over-n-trials
The question asks for a simpler way to do something, but the "way to do it" in the question doesn't work.
Just skip the question and read the answers, they get it right.

08_TSR → 01 Original D&D - Whitebox → Rules → Chain Mail

How terribly imbalanced do you think OD&D would become if you allowed wizards to cast extra spells from HP based on the spell level? So like a level 1 spell would be d1 hp loss, level 6 would be d6 spell loss.

Keep in mind wizards have a d4 HD, and stop gaining HD by the time they start getting lvl 6 spells

Thanks user, this was really helpful!

First, what do you mean by balance?

make it 1d6 per spell level. Call it blood magic.

>Metal Chime
>Range: 30'
>Description: You touch...
Hmmmm

>1d6 hp
>oD&D
That's retarded and so are you

>I don't understand why the passage of time and wandering monster rules were basically removed from later editions.
Same reason they weren't included in most (any?) other RPGs, probably. People read the rules, thought they seemed pointless and fiddly, didn't use them, and then concluded that they were useless. It's a common type of fallacy.

It's extra spells. It should be a risk.
Also, magic users don't have d4 HD in OD&D, so I assumed you had some homebrew frankenstein thing going on anyway.

What do you think of BFRPG?

I really like it. Much more clear and streamlined version of B/X or LL. But one thing irks me. XP for monster killing. This feels wrong in a system with fragile PCs, doesn't it?

It is pretty strange, but I just use the GP for XP optional rule. Still my favorite retroclone by far.

Not him, but I want to chime in.
How about d6+spell level. Should keep higher level spells an option.

I really don't like the ability check rules. They had a perfectly workable system with the door-kicking rules (roll under 1+modifier, 1d6-1d20 for difficulty).

>What do you think of BFRPG?
I don't like it, it adds nothing other than race & class (eeeww)

Yes, I'll have to specify that in the rules.

It's okay. I've used it a bit because I wanted race and class but I found the way they did it a bit lackluster. I like that it sticks to only giving the cleric a spell at second level.

It's what I'm using for my current OSR megadungeon/hexcrawl game, with the GP=XP rule. It's been pretty great because it's D&D so it's superbly easy to learn if you've ever dungeoned a dragon in your entire life, but it's also bog simple. My only complaint is that people rely on the online roll20charsheets too much, which overcomplicated what should be a really dead-simple character sheet

I stapled some 'you don't die when reduced to 0HP' rules onto it, the tl;dr is that hits that would take you to 0 HP or below maim you, you have a 25%ish chance of killing you +5% per previous time you've had to roll on the chart, and a fair few 'you're knocked out' options so you really don't want to rely on the chart to save you. Still have had plenty of character death but nowhere near the meatgrinder it would have been, plus it helps a lot with letting player punch above their weight class without feeling like they're one hit from instadeath every turn.

>What do you think of BFRPG?
Never saw a reason for it, since I have AD&D books, an RC and some LBB reprints.

>But one thing irks me. XP for monster killing. This feels wrong in a system with fragile PCs, doesn't it?
Yeah, fuck that noise. Stick to the good rule, XP for gold. That's probably the most trialled and tested mechanic in all of RPGs, it's not gonna break anything unexpectedly.

Well huh. Hadn't even considered that, but yeah, it makes sense. Although not so much "thieves" as "court wizards, spies, vizers, and handy people to have around". Thieves guilds always struck me as a bit too... camp.

Hadn't considered that either.

Hey guys, question for you all.

What are some benefits of XP for Gold? And how exactly does that mechanic work?

I think the XP for monster killing is an attempt to branch out the system from OSR dungeon crawls, and killing monsters (which is something you'll basically always do in just about any style of fantasy campaign) allows for more adventure options than XP for Gold (since that by its nature requires that you include a monetary reward in the adventure, which doesn't always make sense).

But as you pointed out with the high lethality nature of it, it's still difficult to branch this game out since your typical high heroics fantasy adventure wont work as well in this system, which is a shame, because I've always found the idea of OSR games appealing as rules light fantasy RPGs, but the execution always leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

OD&D gave XP for combat.

>What are some benefits of XP for Gold?
It strongly encourages players to obtain treasure.
Which is well placed encouragement, if obtaining treasure is the point of the game.
>And how exactly does that mechanic work?
For every 1gp you pocket by the end of the adventure, you get 1xp.
It's the reason the xp numbers are really big.
Everyone how aped those large numbers without aping gp:xp just looks silly.

The benefits are that players will start coming up with alternative ways of seeing their aims met than just fighting the monster. The downfall of course being that PCs will become completely wealth obsessed.

You can set the exchange rate how you'd like. You can also set the conditions for gold becoming XP. Some people require it to be spent, most people require it to be looted (so no rewards or wages).

Benefits are that it discourages fighting, it's a classic mechanic, and it makes it easy to track wealth and encourage stealing. Downsides are that the players will try to loot everything, including each other, and it can be tricky to track spending and outside earnings.

Overall, I'd say it's not mandatory, but it's close.

I bet there's a better way to point out my mistakes than by posting without replying, cryptically, with no references. There has to be a better way...

It reinforces the point of the game.

Spies and handy people to have around, sure.
But they're no more viziers or court wizards than any other learned men.

Let us take a look at the tool box:

perk. don't get caught
drawback. stay near markets

c1. coerce people
c2. don't get lost
c3. overcome dementia/manipulation

1. haul treasure, also steal all coins outside palms or purses
2. locate treasure, locate guards, and get a rough room-plan
3. just hits stuff
4. preserve food, hide a body, or increases poison/booze dosage
5. covers escape or lubes hinges
6. covers escape or guards doors
7. torch, or screws someone over, or screws everyone over
8. causes a distraction, rigs a trap, or sends a signal
9. causes a distraction, screws someone over, or rigs bets
10. covers an escape or entrance, weakens MUs

11. sends people flying (covers an escape, kills near cliffs, kills on roofs)
12. weakens MUs

I get that your goal was a good "sneaky dungeon crawler" wizard,
but it turns out what's good for tomb robbing is good for regular robbing.

>There has to be a better way...
Speaking of your mistakes, you say "10. Fog" twice.

>also steal all coins outside palms or purses
"Unattended" coins, user. If it's in a purse, you're attending to it. Plus they can't get out.

But yeah, overall, you could definitely run an entire party of these guys, thieves, and assassins in an urban game. Neat!

What are the newest OSR games, and does Shadow of the Demon Lord count?

>+5 sword fists
OD&D Sword +4s were 1-in-100.
+3 was usually enemy-specific.
Sword +5s were Paladin exclusive.

>outside

>Thieves guilds always struck me as a bit too... camp.

The phrase "thieves guild", is, I think, from Lankmar. In medieval times there were bandits and pirates, but one doesn't hear about organized crime in the cities much. Cities were smaller (Paris only 250,000 in 1300 CE) and people perhaps nosier, so managing a den of thieves inside a city seems dangerous.

>outside

user, I've had a shitty day. If you want to be cryptic, by all means, go ahead, but don't expect much to come of it.

Yeah, I can see it in a Discworld game or something, but in a pseudo-medieval setting you hang petty thieves and go to dinner with renters. The best you'd likely get is a confederacy of beggars, which wouldn't appeal to a Drowned Wizard.

Apparently everything upthread is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.
>>also steal all coins outside palms or purses

Inside a sandwich, on top of spaghetti, served after 2pm on weekdays.

But yes, right. Fair point. Easier if you blow up a strongbox or a bank though.

The thieves guild concept goes back to Cervantes. It's fictional, but a thief is only as good as his fence. Not to mention mountebanks were highly organized.

>and does Shadow of the Demon Lord count?
No, OSR is games compatible with D&D made by TSR, some games are:

>Lamentation of the Flame Princess
>Adventurer Conqueror King system
>Labyrinth Lord
>Dark Dungeons
>Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea

Currently working a document that makes Intelligence slightly more useful. Instead of just languages, high Int gives you "lores," which are specialties that your character knows something about. They're randomly generated. Currently I have two categories:

>cultures and tongues

Languages and the peoples who speak them.

>environs

Terrains like "forest" and "desert" that cover basic knowledge of the terrain, flora/fauna, etc.

This is mostly flavor stuff, there's no real rules to it beyond being prompts for the players and GMs to work with. Any other suggestions to add?

>My only complaint is that people rely on the online roll20charsheets too much, which overcomplicated what should be a really dead-simple character sheet

Ha, you're right. Just joined a roll20 group and the sheet is much more fine grained than any pdf I saw on their site.

Why does new even matter? And SotDL is great to steal from but wouldn't really call it OSR.

Sounds pretty good to me. I dislike too much complexity in my games but that's a good mechanic to make intelligence more useful to non-Wizards; now our dreams of roleplaying an intelligent, tactical fighter with knowledge of the beasts in the woods and the languages of the elves is perfectly realized.

>The thieves guild concept goes back to Cervantes.
This is good information user.

>Mysticism
Knowledge of quasi-magical exercises and practices concerning the relationship between the singular soul and the greater universe, as well as the philosophies surrounding these practices

>Economics
Knowledge of what is valued in specific regions and how distinct economies interact with each other

>Military
Understanding of military history and knowledge of martial arts at varying levels of granularity.

Could something like Tome of Battle maneuvers be made OSR?

No imo

if that's the sort of thing you want happening in your combat, old-school play might not be for you and that's fine

its fine. its for weaning people off more modern D&D and into OSR.

Its free and the printed material is dirt cheap if you want a physical copy

How can you guys like traps? Traps are neither clever, nor are they interesting. Also are basically a lazy GMs way of saying "I am too lazy to come up with a real challenge so here you go faggots." Traps are a worthless vestige of Gygaxian dungeons. Gygax was shit at running games outside of his contrived dungeon crawl bullshit so he has to add things to make the game last as long as possible. Thus traps were added, despite being impractical and barely any use on their own, expensive as fuck, might as well build a fucking golden instead of spending that much cash. Like alignment and Armor Class, they remain in the game for nostalgia purposes only. Any DM who unironically uses traps to any degree of commonality is a piece of shit who needs to be gassed.

...

>refuted
*fed

>Post boring and uninspired dungeon
>Think he refuted someone

i also prefer dungeons without anything to interact with apart from a string of combat encounters

>Joke
>Your head

>There are people who unironically believe this

>How can you guys like traps?
Because they are sexy?

>There are people who unironically take bait

How?

Are you new here?

I thought this pasta would get me more replies than a genuine question, so... why do you like traps? They don't seem interesting most of the time

yes

Rookie mistake, telling us you're new.
Never admit that.

Traps are just as if not more deadly than enemies and can often times be more unique. Take, for example, a room with a floor that looks like solid silver. A wary group would toss something at the floor to check it out, the item disappearing with just the smallest of ripples. Thinking it an illusion, the idiot player sticks their face in it thinking that the floor, being fake, leads somewhere. Now he just shoved his face into mercury.

>Implying I didn't know it was bait
I was just saying that there are people who really believe this. Doubt that? Go to other generals ask their opinions about traps to see

A good trap situation can be a creative experience, as players try to ferret it out and then come up with a way to disarm it. With that said, I hardly use traps because they usually don't make much sense to me, and because I don't want the adventure to slow to a crawl as the PCs poke and prod every inch of every corridor and room they travel through.

...

/osrg/ is a pure and comfy thread, don't post this degeneracy here

>I hardly use traps
What kind of challenge do you give to your players other than combat? Puzzles?

There are people who ironically take bait?

Thread is dead anyway, why not reply?

anyone got Swords of Kos? How is it?

How do you all handle religions in relation to your clerics and such? Monotheistic 'Catholic'-like faith? Polytheistic 'each temple is a church unto itself with little to no major hierarchy'-like?

>I thought this pasta would get me more replies than a genuine question,

Never do this again. This is a lazy way to think and a lazy way to post. You aren't being the poster Mr. Rogers would want you to be. If you're new here it's all the more reason to make a effort.

Monotheistic Generic Fantasy Catholic, but no clerics. Just Paladins who speak for God (and with His voice), angels, and other weird shit. And a wordly but not evil church.

Some settings its generally easier to do the big tent with the Catholic like version. Kinda like how the Aztec gods got subbed out for saints. gives you a backdrop for factional politics within the 'Church'

but the other version of each God has its own distinct religion is useful for inter faith conflict etc.

sometimes its easier to give the 'Big Gods' bigger religions, and the smaller gods more cult like followings or folk religion type organizations, or even just myths.